3rd Gen Rx7 FD to AWD conversion?
02-10-10, 09:20 PM
#27
"Money is no problem, space is"
Every time I have heard that line, all I see is "I am trying to convince you to show me how to do something that I have no idea how to accomplish myself..... so I am going to lie about being able to afford it."
Every time I have heard that line, all I see is "I am trying to convince you to show me how to do something that I have no idea how to accomplish myself..... so I am going to lie about being able to afford it."
02-11-10, 11:00 AM
#31
There is a ton of advantage. It will give you an improved advantage in all situations as far as traction is concerned. The above set-up really wouldn't add too much weight to the vehicle. Plus, if your pushing 500+whp (like many here on this forum) you have less chance of loosing control under heavy acceleration. Personally I want to build a mid engine AWD 4 rotor supercar. 700 hp and 2,500lbs would be the ****.
02-11-10, 11:10 AM
#32
It might work for 2 rotor engine but I think it would be a challenge to put that set up in 3+ rotor engines... Not only that, at this point, its no longer an FD but a car with FD shell as pretty much everything under the shell would need to be fabricated.
02-11-10, 06:06 PM
#33
There is a ton of advantage. It will give you an improved advantage in all situations as far as traction is concerned. The above set-up really wouldn't add too much weight to the vehicle. Plus, if your pushing 500+whp (like many here on this forum) you have less chance of loosing control under heavy acceleration.
It'll only give advantage in traction on loose gravel and that's not a place where you want your FD (see previous page, that FC was specially built for rallying), it wasn't designed for that. And if traction is such a concern a well tuned suspension along with an aftermarket LSD will take care of that. 500whp on 2wd will be like 400-450whp on awd, will have slower acceleration times (not in take off from 0mph of course) along with increased stress on the drivetrain. The reason people go 500whp is for power and speed not traction, so adding something that'll be heavier and slower is not what they'd want. I've driven many awd cars and I know how they behave and personally I wouldn't want an FD like that unless it came with EVO VI - X technology.
Why not continue the tradition in our forum 
02-12-10, 12:09 PM
#40
I don't agree. You see awd cars would have been out of fashion long time ago if it wasn't for smart electronics. Unless Mazda backs up this project it'll only go as far as a Galant VR4, GC8 WRX awd technology, hello understeer, goodbye agility It'll only give advantage in traction on loose gravel and that's not a place where you want your FD (see previous page, that FC was specially built for rallying), it wasn't designed for that. And if traction is such a concern a well tuned suspension along with an aftermarket LSD will take care of that.
500whp on 2wd will be like 400-450whp on awd, will have slower acceleration times (not in take off from 0mph of course) along with increased stress on the drivetrain. The reason people go 500whp is for power and speed not traction, so adding something that'll be heavier and slower is not what they'd want. I've driven many awd cars and I know how they behave and personally I wouldn't want an FD like that unless it came with EVO VI - X technology.
It'll only give advantage in traction on loose gravel and that's not a place where you want your FD (see previous page, that FC was specially built for rallying), it wasn't designed for that. And if traction is such a concern a well tuned suspension along with an aftermarket LSD will take care of that. 500whp on 2wd will be like 400-450whp on awd, will have slower acceleration times (not in take off from 0mph of course) along with increased stress on the drivetrain. The reason people go 500whp is for power and speed not traction, so adding something that'll be heavier and slower is not what they'd want. I've driven many awd cars and I know how they behave and personally I wouldn't want an FD like that unless it came with EVO VI - X technology.
In my post I was specifically meaning it would be more beneficial in hi HP applications (500whp+). I stand by that. 500whp isn't the limit. Perfect example I can guarantee you the Bugattii Veron is faster around a road course with it's awd system than if it where only rwd. A car with that much power would be a handfull out of the corners and on the straights with you having to modulate the throttle so much trying to keep the back end from kicking out. Any time your modulating, then your not making the power. The Zr1 is another great example. All that power and torque and every editor that drivers that car around a road course talks about how difficult it is to drive that car at the limits. They can never put all the power down. Any car will be at it fastest if it's putting more power down to the pavement at all times and not skiding. Also understeer isn't a bad thing. It makes the car easier to control at the limits for the average Joe. Most consumers are average Joe's so I'm not talking about expert drivers. Maybe your an expert driver I don't know? I don't know anthing about the EVO VI but, if it has system that only engages the front wheels as needed, then that would be perfect.
02-12-10, 03:23 PM
#41
In my post I was specifically meaning it would be more beneficial in hi HP applications (500whp+). I stand by that. 500whp isn't the limit. Perfect example I can guarantee you the Bugattii Veron is faster around a road course with it's awd system than if it where only rwd. A car with that much power would be a handfull out of the corners and on the straights with you having to modulate the throttle so much trying to keep the back end from kicking out. Any time your modulating, then your not making the power. The Zr1 is another great example. All that power and torque and every editor that drivers that car around a road course talks about how difficult it is to drive that car at the limits. They can never put all the power down. Any car will be at it fastest if it's putting more power down to the pavement at all times and not skiding. Also understeer isn't a bad thing. It makes the car easier to control at the limits for the average Joe. Most consumers are average Joe's so I'm not talking about expert drivers. Maybe your an expert driver I don't know? I don't know anthing about the EVO VI but, if it has system that only engages the front wheels as needed, then that would be perfect.
Like I said before awd is more effective on loose gravel and it's also great if it's tuned by factory and assisted by smart electronics but this is definitely not the case here. If you look at most exotic cars you'll see they all have big hp and almost all have rwd. Porsche GT3RS, F430 Scuderia etc. If an average Joe buys a1250kg RX7 with double wishbone suspension and torsen diff and gives it 500whp and complains that it loses traction whose fault is it?
Some people do things cause they make sense, and some do things to be different. Once I've seen a car with clear tubes in the boot which had fish inside.
02-13-10, 11:33 PM
#42
You're missing the point. Bugatti Veyron is born awd (and not your average awd), so is EVO and GTR and so on. What we're talking about here in your supercar terms is turning an Enzo or a F430 into awd. Are you telling me if you do this mod at home these cars will be better cause they will have more traction then they have now?
Like I said before awd is more effective on loose gravel and it's also great if it's tuned by factory and assisted by smart electronics but this is definitely not the case here. If you look at most exotic cars you'll see they all have big hp and almost all have rwd. Porsche GT3RS, F430 Scuderia etc. If an average Joe buys a1250kg RX7 with double wishbone suspension and torsen diff and gives it 500whp and complains that it loses traction whose fault is it?
Some people do things cause they make sense, and some do things to be different. Once I've seen a car with clear tubes in the boot which had fish inside.
Like I said before awd is more effective on loose gravel and it's also great if it's tuned by factory and assisted by smart electronics but this is definitely not the case here. If you look at most exotic cars you'll see they all have big hp and almost all have rwd. Porsche GT3RS, F430 Scuderia etc. If an average Joe buys a1250kg RX7 with double wishbone suspension and torsen diff and gives it 500whp and complains that it loses traction whose fault is it?
Some people do things cause they make sense, and some do things to be different. Once I've seen a car with clear tubes in the boot which had fish inside.
Any your missing my point also. You would be surprised at what some people can do in their garages. I'm talking about using the AWD to gain traction advantage when you get to a point that you can no longer COMFORTABLY put the power down with just rwd. Also the Enzo and F430 are NA mid-engine cars. Those vehicles naturally tend to under steer with so much weight in the back. That's why I used the supercharged Zr1 as an example. Adding boost pressure will greatly increase the torque. The more torque you have, the easier it is to break the tires loose. Hell even the 3rd gen is known to be unpredictable with the torque increase you get when the secondaries kick in. That wouldn't be a problem if the front tires also aided in pulling the front end to help keep the rear in check.
02-14-10, 09:10 AM
#43
Please somebody help!!!
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racelogic traction control
No reason to beat your head against the wall trying to find traction going in a straight line. If you try to use 500hp in a corner, awd isn't going to save you.
No reason to beat your head against the wall trying to find traction going in a straight line. If you try to use 500hp in a corner, awd isn't going to save you.
02-14-10, 09:46 AM
#44
There is Skip Barber school available that will properly teach how to drive a rwd sports car if traction and other aspects of racing is what you're concerned with. I am not trying to be condescending, I am just being real and serious. There's a reason why Mazda made the FD, a PURE sports car rwd and not awd. I personally think making it awd would make it heavier and ruin it's characteristics as a true sports car. But hey, different strokes for different fokes and I respect that, but just something to think about...
F 40 Ferrari................rwd
Mclaren F1.................rwd
Pagani Zonda............rwd
Porsche Carrera GT...rwd
Ford GT.....................rwd
TVR Sagaris...............rwd
Koenigsegg CCx........rwd
Formula 1 Race Car...rwd
If awd is really that big of an advantage on the street/track, why did these industry leaders in automotive history (not to mention Formula 1) above opt for rwd and not awd...just something to think about.
F 40 Ferrari................rwd
Mclaren F1.................rwd
Pagani Zonda............rwd
Porsche Carrera GT...rwd
Ford GT.....................rwd
TVR Sagaris...............rwd
Koenigsegg CCx........rwd
Formula 1 Race Car...rwd
If awd is really that big of an advantage on the street/track, why did these industry leaders in automotive history (not to mention Formula 1) above opt for rwd and not awd...just something to think about.
02-14-10, 04:54 PM
#45
Any your missing my point also. You would be surprised at what some people can do in their garages. I'm talking about using the AWD to gain traction advantage when you get to a point that you can no longer COMFORTABLY put the power down with just rwd. Also the Enzo and F430 are NA mid-engine cars. Those vehicles naturally tend to under steer with so much weight in the back. That's why I used the supercharged Zr1 as an example. Adding boost pressure will greatly increase the torque. The more torque you have, the easier it is to break the tires loose. Hell even the 3rd gen is known to be unpredictable with the torque increase you get when the secondaries kick in. That wouldn't be a problem if the front tires also aided in pulling the front end to help keep the rear in check.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpyFRAecc3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CD7uoHerOg
Would I really want to convert these cars to awd? No way. Would I like to improve my rwd RX7 like this? Hell yes.
02-14-10, 11:04 PM
#47
There is Skip Barber school available that will properly teach how to drive a rwd sports car if traction and other aspects of racing is what you're concerned with. I am not trying to be condescending, I am just being real and serious. There's a reason why Mazda made the FD, a PURE sports car rwd and not awd. I personally think making it awd would make it heavier and ruin it's characteristics as a true sports car. But hey, different strokes for different fokes and I respect that, but just something to think about...
F 40 Ferrari................rwd
Mclaren F1.................rwd
Pagani Zonda............rwd
Porsche Carrera GT...rwd
Ford GT.....................rwd
TVR Sagaris...............rwd
Koenigsegg CCx........rwd
Formula 1 Race Car...rwd
If awd is really that big of an advantage on the street/track, why did these industry leaders in automotive history (not to mention Formula 1) above opt for rwd and not awd...just something to think about.
F 40 Ferrari................rwd
Mclaren F1.................rwd
Pagani Zonda............rwd
Porsche Carrera GT...rwd
Ford GT.....................rwd
TVR Sagaris...............rwd
Koenigsegg CCx........rwd
Formula 1 Race Car...rwd
If awd is really that big of an advantage on the street/track, why did these industry leaders in automotive history (not to mention Formula 1) above opt for rwd and not awd...just something to think about.
All these cars are also mid engine. That makes a big difference in a way these cars handle. More weight in the back helps with traction. If the above cars were front engine and rwd, they would be traction limited.
02-14-10, 11:06 PM
#48
Theory vs. practice. All sounds good but not really needed. People can do stuff in garages but making an awd setup that'll improve on a FD is a big task, especially if his neighbour is improving his rwd RX7's handling in his garage next door
Would I really want to convert these cars to awd? No way. Would I like to improve my rwd RX7 like this? Hell yes.
Would I really want to convert these cars to awd? No way. Would I like to improve my rwd RX7 like this? Hell yes.
Nice videos. I've seen them b4. You see this one. Please take note how easily the driver is handling the car. He's nearly full throttle in mid corner. This is something you simply can not do with just rwd and alot of power. The awd is allowing this driver to take more advantage of the power his engine is making.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZgR0P4AydI
Our beloved Rx7 hasn't even come close to this time. It's 3 seconds slower! In racing, that's an eternity
02-14-10, 11:56 PM
#49
I would have to disagree with your statement about awd in racing. An awd system adds weight to a car, added weight makes the car much more resistant to changing direction in any direction. The FD is also a 50/50 mid ship car causing the rear of the car to have more weight shifted over it during acceleration. If a awd system was added, the FD would be the worst under-steering pig ever created due to the large amount of weight now added to the front, taking the 50/50 away. The weight transfer over the front wheels under heavy braking would be greatly increased with an awd system, making under-steer insane. A rwd has the advantage of weight always on it's side. I would agree that an awd car is much easier to drive, giving the appearance that they are faster. A person who can drive a rwd car properly will out perform the heavier less nimble machine. I am making a comparative statement between two equally built cars, so comparing a gtr to a 240sx is with lap times would be asinine. At Buttonwillow in unlimited classes of redline the rwd was 3 seconds faster than the fastest awd. More times than not this is the case(there will always be exemptions, I know this). In pro racing like le mans and rolex a rwd car is always sitting in the winners circle. I can't really see your point with high horse power going in a straight line either. The fastest drag cars are properly set-up rwd cars, like nhra pro-stock. Nhra pro mod cars with 4000 horse power are also rwd, along with probably a much to extreme example of the 8000 hp top fuel classes.
I don't want to sound like Im saying awd is always worse, Im not. I just think there would be no benefit to making an FD awd at all. Car's like the evo and gtr are designed around there awd systems, making them super fast. My main point is that when a car is designed to be the fastest car for it's intended purpose it's rwd, unless your purpose is rally racing.
I don't want to sound like Im saying awd is always worse, Im not. I just think there would be no benefit to making an FD awd at all. Car's like the evo and gtr are designed around there awd systems, making them super fast. My main point is that when a car is designed to be the fastest car for it's intended purpose it's rwd, unless your purpose is rally racing.
02-15-10, 08:46 AM
#50
Nice videos. I've seen them b4. You see this one. Please take note how easily the driver is handling the car. He's nearly full throttle in mid corner. This is something you simply can not do with just rwd and alot of power. The awd is allowing this driver to take more advantage of the power his engine is making.
Our beloved Rx7 hasn't even come close to this time. It's 3 seconds slower! In racing, that's an eternity
Our beloved Rx7 hasn't even come close to this time. It's 3 seconds slower! In racing, that's an eternity
If you keep giving more and more extreme examples we'll end up in F1 as last stop and you know what wheel drive that is. Anyway going back to the original discussion, in real life situation an awd for RX7 is not needed and can't be done the way it's meant to unless you spend $$$ for the sake of owning something different but unnecessary.
