When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I wasn't speaking about inflation so much as personal financial situation. At this point in my career I'd be as willing to drop $175k on a Supra as I was willing to drop $40k 15 years ago. I could afford to, but it is just out of reach for being comfortable. In both situations I'd have to take out a loan.
See I disagree. Unlike the Supra, the FD has always been within my reach. It's a second tier that may rise with the rest, but the rotary has always been quirky. It's like the band Rush. Those who love them, really love them. But the gen pop cant get past Geddy's voice, or the rotary engine. Prices will rise no doubt, but not dramatically enough to turn a profit.
Do you have to pay that tax even if you don't register it? If you're collecting as an investment the only driving you'd do would be once a year on a private road just to warm it up.
Absolutely true for cars within reach of the average blue or white collar worker. The money is in the rare collectibles that can easily beat those returns. Drop 500k on a car with serious pedigree (a low mile limited edition super car, a race car with good win history, or perhaps a specialty tuned restoration like a Singer Porsche). and it will be worth millions decades from now....but you can't buy it now, when the market is hot...you gotta have cash flow when the market takes a turn for the worse.
Love the analogy and a little rush is OK but overall I was never a big fan but it's more about the music than the voice to me. When it comes to collector cars, like music/bands, it's more about the overall vibe and the FD has a killer vibe or it is a gorgeous timeless car, that's fun to drive, fun to mod/work on, etc...etc... The only reason the cosmo is a collectible at all is the engine, and it's a rotary.
No doubt no matter what you are investing in you should attempt to buy low and sell high. This is extremely hard to do in the stock market much less the car market. Is the Supra at a high and the FD at a low. I'd suspect so but who knows.
Never barrow money to invest. Also never say never or for instance when you can borrow at 3 percent (not to long ago mortgage rates) get all you can LOL.
I believe the rotary will actually help the value of the FD in years to come. Once the majority of cars are non combustion and self driving the type of engine in collector cars may hold a greater significance and the rotary is a unique engine. The flip side to collectible cars similar to VHS or 8 tracks is once everyone is driving non combustion cars will they be scrapped with very few valuable collectors out there if any at all. Hopefully they'll be like vinyl records and some will want that analog feel, sound etc... and there will still be combustion cars, mechanics and gas stations etc....
In 100 years I suspect no one will care about combustion cars at all.
The future is very difficult to predict or investing in anything is a major PIA
Bottomline: Don't invest in cars unless you love them or enjoy being in the game.
Fritz....you seem to know a lot about FD's, so I have a question for you. I installed the FC commander in my '93, it got rid of the 3k stumble the '93's are know for, mostly on warm up. Since the install the AC comes on for a few seconds then shuts off. I've cleaned the fan selector switch contacts, done the relay/ground mod at the CPU box....nothing worked. Checked all the AC components, pressures, the AC works fine.....I'm at the point of putting the stock CPU back in....no AC in a Florida summer is OK for me.....but my wife hates it...LOL!
Fritz....you seem to know a lot about FD's, so I have a question for you. I installed the FC commander in my '93, it got rid of the 3k stumble the '93's are know for, mostly on warm up. Since the install the AC comes on for a few seconds then shuts off. I've cleaned the fan selector switch contacts, done the relay/ground mod at the CPU box....nothing worked. Checked all the AC components, pressures, the AC works fine.....I'm at the point of putting the stock CPU back in....no AC in a Florida summer is OK for me.....but my wife hates it...LOL!
This is a known problem with PFCs. It's possible the AC may work on a lower fan speed but not on a higher one.
I fortunately have not encountered this issue. Check the PFC sub forum for info and you should find something useful.
Thanks Fritz...wish you lived closer, I'd by you a beer or two! I've tried all the fan speeds, it just does the same thing....works for a minute or two then shuts off, wish I could nail this one!
Thanks Fritz...wish you lived closer, I'd by you a beer or two! I've tried all the fan speeds, it just does the same thing....works for a minute or two then shuts off, wish I could nail this one!
Yep in FL better off with AC and a periodic stumble
Thanks Fritz...wish you lived closer, I'd by you a beer or two! I've tried all the fan speeds, it just does the same thing....works for a minute or two then shuts off, wish I could nail this one!
Greg - if you're armed with the FSM wiring diagrams, it might be pretty easy to divorce the AC circuit from your ECU/PFC without too much trouble or unintended consequences. I'm not an FD guy, but I can't imagine that the AC integration is all that different from how Mazda did it in the S5 FC's, which I'm very familiar with. Basically, the factory ECU integrates with the AC wiring for 2 reasons - one is to detect whenever the AC compressor is running, which the ECU uses to compensate idle speed for the extra load, and the 2nd reason is to temporarily interrupt the AC compressor for a few seconds whenever you mat the throttle (WOT). In the case of the S5 ECU, there are 2 connections to the AC circuit - basically the ECU is wired in series with the AC clutch relay coil's control circuit loop, which allows it to manage both functions. Simply disconnecting those 2 pins from the ECU, and then jumping them together in the harness divorces the ECU from the AC functions, and allows the HVAC controls to work. Only functions you lose is the idle compensation when the AC is turned on, and the WOT AC interrupt feature. Which you can probably live with in FL
Thank you Pete for that info, I'll give it a try...without the idle compensation the AC might pull the idle down a bit too far?
It most likely will, the compressor does put a significant load on the engine, so you'll need to raise your base idle speed to deal with that. BTW, I'm currently running an AEM Infinity ECU in my FC, which is how I learned about the AC wiring. Initially, I had my AEM ECU completely divorced from the factory AC wiring - just jumping those 2 pins in the stock harness together as suggested. But I got fed up with the high base idle speed I needed to deal with the AC compressor coming online, so I've since integrated the AEM ECU into the factory AC wiring, so the ECU can manage the AC just like OEM stock.
Thank you Pete for that info, I'll give it a try...without the idle compensation the AC might pull the idle down a bit too far?
OT of the main thread, however I was able to fix this problem on my FD with a new fan speed selector switch. Cleaning did not work, and I did not want to mess with the OEM wiring.
I have heard that changing the PFC to a newer/different box can help too. Adding/improving grounds may also help, since this is the core issue.
I took my fan selector switch apart (PITA!) and cleaned it, I was surprised at how dirty the contacts were. Pete 89T2....I did the ECU relay ground mod I found somewhere on this forum, for me it didn't work. How did you wind up wiring your AC to ECU?
I've been meaning to note how wrong I have been about Supra values versus FD values. FD prices have gone up, but so have the Supras and they maintain that edge. I still don't really understand why anyone would pay so much for that car, but that is obviously my problem.
I've been meaning to note how wrong I have been about Supra values versus FD values. FD prices have gone up, but so have the Supras and they maintain that edge. I still don't really understand why anyone would pay so much for that car, but that is obviously my problem.
Sup G! Long time no hear brother.
Regarding the supra: I guess it is still reaping the benefits of the cult like following that emanated from the days of it being a lambo/ferrari highway killer. FWIW, I agree with you as I don't get why anyone would pay that much for a supra. As I mentioned earlier, while shopping for a sports car in the late 90's I test drove a MKIV turbo model and I wasn't particularly impressed. Hence, why it isn't in my garage.
Hey, my friend. Been working a large RE deal and haven't had much free time.
Same with me. Like so many here I am on BAT every day and see what's selling for what. You can buy a Ferrari Maranello for less than the better Supra's. Or, a host of other desirable Ferraris, like 360's, 348's, etc, and have a lot of change left over. Wus up with that?
Yeah, I hate to say it, but if the roles of the FD and MKIV were swapped in the original F&F, we might be seeing different values. Yes, the FD was Dom's ride for one scene, and a heavily kitted version was featured again in Tokyo Drift, but they were not used as the star of the film. Of course there are reasons pre-dating the movie as to why the MKIV was chosen instead, mainly the cult following it had for being easy to tune on a budget without blowing it up. It's more conceivable that a blond haired blue eyed surfer dude could build a Ferrari killing monster in a backyard garage starting with one of those vs an FD, which he would surely "blow an apex seal" chasing down the baddies with his lead foot. And in the aftermath of the film, the remaining stock of decent examples was gobbled up by posers making the low mile examples we are seeing cross the auction block much more rare. Then multiply that by the introduction of the new Supra with the poser BMW engine skyrockets the real deal original through the stratosphere. Only way we'll see that happen with the FD is if Mazda actually releases another performance rotary...and based on on recent news articles, if we see a rotary at all, it's going to be in a CX5 as a range extender.
Yeah, I hate to say it, but if the roles of the FD and MKIV were swapped in the original F&F, we might be seeing different values. Yes, the FD was Dom's ride for one scene, and a heavily kitted version was featured again in Tokyo Drift, but they were not used as the star of the film. Of course there are reasons pre-dating the movie as to why the MKIV was chosen instead, mainly the cult following it had for being easy to tune on a budget without blowing it up. It's more conceivable that a blond haired blue eyed surfer dude could build a Ferrari killing monster in a backyard garage starting with one of those vs an FD, which he would surely "blow an apex seal" chasing down the baddies with his lead foot. And in the aftermath of the film, the remaining stock of decent examples was gobbled up by posers making the low mile examples we are seeing cross the auction block much more rare. Then multiply that by the introduction of the new Supra with the poser BMW engine skyrockets the real deal original through the stratosphere. Only way we'll see that happen with the FD is if Mazda actually releases another performance rotary...and based on on recent news articles, if we see a rotary at all, it's going to be in a CX5 as a range extender.
I don't think the FF movies have much to do with the value of the Supra or other valuable cars from the 90s that starred in the movie. The Eclipse also had a big role and I don't see them selling for 100k plus. Why, because there are thousands of them and it's not much of car LOL.
The supra is a super cool car and there are very few. The Supra craze has a 10 year head start on the FD. If the e30 M3 and the Supra can sell for 100k then the FD can as well Time will tell. Give it 10 years.
That said as Gordon pointed out the Supra selling for 172k is insane or it's in the big leagues now. 170k buys a very nice 997.2 GT3 RS.
If Supra is still going up, that's just fine with me. Only helps to pull the FD prices up in its wake. IMHO. I'm wondering how many FD's are still on the road which have not been crashed or modified. In a way, I think F&F helped reduce the number of FDs on the road that are still in excellent condition without permanent mods applied.
If you've got a warehouse to store them, cars of this age are a good long term (10-20 years) investment, a perfect place to park some cash and diversify your portfolio. Think of the 928 like the next Ferrari Dino. Right now prices seem high, but they are going to skyrocket as 911 values become unattainable. But as I have said before, people paying this money will only take the cars out for special concours events. The mileage won't change much at all.
Fine with me. I've got a Porsche 968 coupe with a 6 speed. ~1200 of those made. Prices trend graphs seems to be tracking my FD. FD going a bit less vertical in the last few months however. Either way its my belief that the crazy 911 and Supra values of which are going to pull these two cars values up along with them.
Here is a more interesting graph of changes in value of cars in the same era as an index over the last few year. Porsche 911 (last air cooled model), Porsche 968 (last front engine/rear transaxle model), Mazda RX7 FD, Toyota Mark IV Turbo, and the DOW market average (dashed black line). Its clear to me that the 968 is playing catchup to the 911, and RX7 to the Supra. From a percentage change point of view, those cars are a better return on investment than the 911 and Supra over the last few years. Assuming the 911 and Supra of this era continue on their path of appreciation, I think the slope if the ROI graph for the 968 and FD respectively are going to get even steeper to represent the "catch up" trend that is represented below. The best investments are not necessarily the most expensive ones.
I've been looking at Porsche 968 prices for years... they're still relatively rare, but you can still get them in the low $20Ks in my area (mostly convertibles for sale). I'm not sure if it's easy to find parts for them, though.
They'll probably go up as the supply of drivable pre-2000s 911s exhausts itself... even the 996 are going up in value.
Here is a more interesting graph of changes in value of cars in the same era as an index over the last few year. Porsche 911 (last air cooled model), Porsche 968 (last front engine/rear transaxle model), Mazda RX7 FD, Toyota Mark IV Turbo, and the DOW market average (dashed black line). Its clear to me that the 968 is playing catchup to the 911, and RX7 to the Supra. From a percentage change point of view, those cars are a better return on investment than the 911 and Supra over the last few years. Assuming the 911 and Supra of this era continue on their path of appreciation, I think the slope if the ROI graph for the 968 and FD respectively are going to get even steeper to represent the "catch up" trend that is represented below. The best investments are not necessarily the most expensive ones.
Yep this graph is telling me the FD is under appreciated until recently. I think it has room to move higher but I don't see the Supra moving much unless the market moves higher or things are positive financially for those investing in collector cars. As I've indicated over and over we've had an incredible stock market run which likely still has a little room to move higher but we are all going to pay the price for the debt and our REAL employment issues. Currently a record # of people can't pay their car loans and we also have record employment (reality there are way to many people who don't work and don't care to) which is an interesting phenomenon. Basically people are not getting paid enough and or not working and I don't see that improving much in the short term.
I think people are still spending 40k for FDs to actually drive them rather than simply put in a collection to appreciate in hopes of also seeing some appreciation in value.
Lastly I believe the collector car market is going to get pounded at some point as it's in a bit of a bubble today. I see the FD as being one of the few fair values currently.
The above link is from 2018 but still is valid today. This is the main reason you see a greater appreciation (word of the day) for socialistic thoughts and feelings in this country esp the young. What's really funny about all this is that it's the current SOCIALIST (big businesses and government working together to take more and more from you) issues that are causing the effing problems LOL.
I think today's young are also pampered a bit too much and really don't know how to stand on their own two feet or start a business etc.... not that our current society helps small businesses either LOL.
We as a country really are headed toward some nasty problems if things don't change course. I hate to be all doom and gloom but I just don't see a light at the end of the tunnel.
https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org...ork-full-time/
. What's really funny about all this is that it's the current SOCIALIST (big businesses and government working together to take more and more from you) issues that are causing the effing problems LOL.
.
I agree with you about the trend of what’s happening with government corruption and corporate lobbyists. However, I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or just confused about the definition of socialism.
Anyhow, I’d prefer that we stay on topic and not turn this into a political debate.
Last edited by snova; 03-18-19 at 09:34 AM.
Reason: Hit post too soon
I agree with you about the trend of what’s happening with government corruption and corporate lobbyists. However, I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or just confused about the definition of socialism.
Anyhow, I’d prefer that we stay on topic and not turn this into a political debate.
Half the time I don't understand the words coming out of my mouth .
Just meant that our gov is currently pretty much socialist or providing things for many of us with the help of big business in a very uneconomical fashion and controlling businesses that provide things for us like medicine, ins and health care etc... When you include state and federal government employees, handouts/entitlements, contract laborers etc.... 50 percent or more the people with decent jobs in this country depend on our bankrupt state and federal governments. In other words we have epic issues that are getting worse not better.
Bottomline: If we want improvement we'll need to get back to our libertarian (my meaning here would be liberty/freedom or protection from big government control) roots.
I agree about sticking on topic but as I've mentioned many times in this thread the state of our economy is on topic with the value of the FD both today and tomorrow
03-13-19, 01:12 PM
