Wow! clean oil after 3k!
07-02-06, 08:06 PM
#1
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Wow! clean oil after 3k!
This is gonna sound like a stupid question but I'll ask anyway.
I went to check my oil today since I don't check it regularly. It's been almost 3000 miles since my last oil change so I took the car out for a drive and let it get hot. As expected, the dipstick shows that the oil level is low...actually, it's right at the bottom mark on the stick. This made me feel good because this is the first oil change I'm going to do since I changed it when I bought the car and I wasn't sure how well the OMP was working.
Now the unexpected: .....the oil is still a beautiful golden color. It does not look dirty at all. Should I change it or just replace the filter and top it off? I've never seen oil that looks so clean after 3k before. I'll also let you all know that I currently have a *AHEM*.....Fram tough gaurd oil filter on the car. I bought it before I read up on here and found out about the past problems with these.
I went to check my oil today since I don't check it regularly. It's been almost 3000 miles since my last oil change so I took the car out for a drive and let it get hot. As expected, the dipstick shows that the oil level is low...actually, it's right at the bottom mark on the stick. This made me feel good because this is the first oil change I'm going to do since I changed it when I bought the car and I wasn't sure how well the OMP was working.
Now the unexpected: .....the oil is still a beautiful golden color. It does not look dirty at all. Should I change it or just replace the filter and top it off? I've never seen oil that looks so clean after 3k before. I'll also let you all know that I currently have a *AHEM*.....Fram tough gaurd oil filter on the car. I bought it before I read up on here and found out about the past problems with these.
07-02-06, 08:46 PM
#3
^word..and get a k&n filter..waayyy better..never trust your rotary to a fram..ugh..its just uncivilized, soo yeah change that oil..:cough: and filter..its good that the oil looks good cause that means your engine is running like its supposed to..although i dont know about it being low..but then again rotarys do burn oil..sometimes..
:AA:
:AA:
07-02-06, 08:59 PM
#4
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Originally Posted by AcidAngel7477
rotarys do burn oil..sometimes..
:AA:
:AA:
Off topic.... how is pennzoil? My last change I used pennzoil 10w-40 and filter. Next time I will use castrol GTX, that seems to be a favorite around here.
07-02-06, 09:03 PM
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Did you use valvoline? I have had people complain that all oils other than valvoline are crap, because they all get dirty, I tried to explain to him that one of the reasons that you put oil in your engine is to CLEAN the engine. If the oil doesnt pick up contaminants, that means its STILL in your engine, not good.
I would switch oils.
I would switch oils.
07-02-06, 09:31 PM
#7
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Did you use valvoline?
On another note.....what's the probability that my oil pump is shot....that could explain the clean oil but...I would think the motor would seize pretty quickly without it. I know I get oil pressure....where should it be at idle?
Last edited by RoughRex; 07-02-06 at 09:38 PM.
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07-03-06, 01:56 AM
#9
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All filters are the same. They are all just cardboard inside nothings special. Unless you decide to go with like a mobil1 or K&N in which case those are supposed to have "magic" powers to filter better and keep the oil nice and 'chiny'...
07-03-06, 08:48 AM
#11
I change oil filter and oil in my N/A at 4-5000 mile intervals. My oil never turns dark like oil typically does in a piston engine. I think this is because the oil system does not have nearly the exposure to the blowby gasses and combustion chamber as it does in the piston engine. Thus, it does not have all the unburned/partially burned by-products of combustion that color and contaminate the oil in boingers.
Another factor is that the oil is used and replaced. If the oil is used at the rate of 1qt. per 1000 miles of driving, 3 of the original 5 qts of oil has been used up and replaced. Take that process out to 5000 miles and guess what? The oil has changed itself.
Now the downside to all this is that in the rotary the oil gets some dilution from fuel. If you remove the MOP and go premix, you will find that the oil level rises significantly as you drive. Do a search and you will find lots of threads regarding gassy smells in the oil, oil dilution etc. Lots of discussion on this.
I know several Porshe 928 owners that change the oil 1x per year, regardless of mileage and the oil filter at 5000 mile intervals. This methodology is based on many oil analysis and much discussion in the 928 community.
My gut feeling is that you should replace the oil filter at least.
Maybe you could also take an oil sample, have it tested and share the results with us all. Then we could have some data to discuss.
Good luck!
Another factor is that the oil is used and replaced. If the oil is used at the rate of 1qt. per 1000 miles of driving, 3 of the original 5 qts of oil has been used up and replaced. Take that process out to 5000 miles and guess what? The oil has changed itself.
Now the downside to all this is that in the rotary the oil gets some dilution from fuel. If you remove the MOP and go premix, you will find that the oil level rises significantly as you drive. Do a search and you will find lots of threads regarding gassy smells in the oil, oil dilution etc. Lots of discussion on this.
I know several Porshe 928 owners that change the oil 1x per year, regardless of mileage and the oil filter at 5000 mile intervals. This methodology is based on many oil analysis and much discussion in the 928 community.
My gut feeling is that you should replace the oil filter at least.
Maybe you could also take an oil sample, have it tested and share the results with us all. Then we could have some data to discuss.
Good luck!
07-03-06, 08:58 AM
#12
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I'd definatly replace the oil at the suggested 3,000 mile interval, maybe slightly longer if using a good synthetic.
The reason oil changes are scheduled when they are isn't because of the oil getting dirty, but because it breaks down and the additives wear out within that time. The oil can look just fine, but it won't be lubricating or protecting as well as it should be.
The reason oil changes are scheduled when they are isn't because of the oil getting dirty, but because it breaks down and the additives wear out within that time. The oil can look just fine, but it won't be lubricating or protecting as well as it should be.
07-03-06, 09:33 AM
#13
Originally Posted by uRizen
I'd definatly replace the oil at the suggested 3,000 mile interval, maybe slightly longer if using a good synthetic.
The reason oil changes are scheduled when they are isn't because of the oil getting dirty, but because it breaks down and the additives wear out within that time. The oil can look just fine, but it won't be lubricating or protecting as well as it should be.
The reason oil changes are scheduled when they are isn't because of the oil getting dirty, but because it breaks down and the additives wear out within that time. The oil can look just fine, but it won't be lubricating or protecting as well as it should be.
Actually, it is just the opposite. My 928 buds find that the oil doesn't break down. It gets contaminated far sooner than it breaks down. 5000 miles is nothing for a modern dino oil. 15000-20000 is fine for quality sythetic. But *NO ONE* goes that long because the real issue is contamination. Most new car oil-change intervals are now 10,000 miles or better. The severe duty interval is usually 5000 miles. Severe duty doesn't break down the oil significantly faster, it gets it dirty faster. Good filtration takes care of the larger particles but the smaller contaminates and the soluble byproducts of combustion build up.
From the Rennlist 928 forum:
Oil Condition Report No 10
Hello,
this is the result of the tenth Used Oil Analysis (UOA) of the engine oil in my ‘89 S4, and it will be the last provided by me
The oil and filter were changed at this sampling point, after 5016 miles (8078kms) over twelve months. Exxon-Mobil's Laboratory OK'd the oil for continued use
I use Mobil's Delvac 1 5w-40 Heavy Duty (HDEO) commercial diesel "mixed fleet" oil and it has the API's CH-4/SJ quality rating (whilst it has now been updated I am still using the older version). It far exceeds the ACEA's A3/B3-04 requirements. It has ACEA's E3, E4, E5 & B4 Certification for severe diesel engine standards of high turbo-charger boost pressures, deposit control, heavy piston and bearing loads, elevated heat and extended oil drain intervals. Being dual rated (diesel/petrol) it is most suitable for use in high performance petrol engines
Although NOT Porsche Approved it FAR exceeds Porsche's original quality recommendations for the 928 and their current Approval regime as well
This oil is now officially recommended for the 928 by Mobil in the US and is also marketed there as M1 T&SUV 5w-40
Using higher viscosity oils than are absolutely necessary to meet the expected ambient range in your area should be avoided in any 928 engine
Details:
Car - MY89 - 928S4 Auto
Speedo - 90150 miles (145168 kms) now
Oil - Mobil's Delvac 1 5w-40 fully synthetic HDEO - API rated as "CH-4/SJ"
Oil & filter change date - 14/09/04 (OEM "MANN" filter used)
Distance since Oil & filter changed - 5016 miles (8078 kms)
Oil used since 14/09/04 - nil (still at "FULL" mark)
Date of this sample - 16/9/2005
Distance since last sample - 1547 miles (2491kms)
Use in this period - 5% town, 12% urban, 83% highway
Avg speed in period - 42 mph (68 km/h with highest speed of 220km/h)
Fuel economy in period - 12.1 ltrs/100km
Ambient in this period - +42C high to -2C low
Humidity in this period - 98% (highest)
Oil Condition;
Viscosity OK - 89 (excellent) [90]< Average of all at Oil change
Water OK - 0.08%
Soot Index OK - 0.00
Sodium OK - 3
TAN OK - 3 (excellent - lowest is best, max allowed is 9)
Lab. UOA Report Summary;
ExxonMobil's rating now "Normal"
Translated status "Excellent - suitable for continued use"
Last Report "Normal"
Elemental (& wear metal) Analysis;
Details of the following columns;
Col 1- this UOA result in ppm (my comments are in brackets)
Col 2 - [?] rounded average of all UOA results at oil change
Iron 14 (excellent) [11]
Aluminium 5 (excellent) [5]
Chromium 1 (excellent) [1]
Copper 3 (excellent) [4]
Lead 5 (excellent) [8]
Silicon 4 (excellent) [5]
Sodium 3 (excellent) [5]
Tin <1 (excellent) [NA]
SPECIAL NOTE: The averaged figures are a good baseline for any 928 owner to use!
NOTE 1: General summary
The UOA result is typical of the previous nine UOAs and is therefore normal. Although iron is a little higher, this UOA's other elemental wear metal readings are at or below the previous averages for this engine and well below Industry acceptable limits. One Techron Concentrate fuel treatment has occurred since the oil change in September 2004 but no evidence of this appears in this UOA
The series of ten (10) UOAs indicate that the rings, pistons, bores, cams, cam, rod and crank bearings, crankshaft thrust washers and other major components are wearing at a very very low rate indeed
The testing to date justifies using the Porsche recommended (or better) oils and following their recommended servicing intervals despite what some so called Porsche "experts" may say in promoting shorter oil change intervals
NOTE 2: Engine oil performance observations (Delvac 1 5w-40)
It is interesting to note the following issues now that about 26000 miles (42000kms) have been spanned by the ten UOA's covering two different viscosity synthetic lubricants
A - Oil viscosity
A 5w-40 viscosity (the current recommendation) seems ideal for year round use in a 928!
B - Wear metals
The 5w-40 viscosity oil has certainly produced a downward trend in engine wear rates
It should be noted that wear metals will increase in volume (in ppm) as time goes by until drained with the oil - they are simply too small to be filtered out
NOTE 3: Current oil condition summary
The oil has performed very well and for those persons using Delvac 1 5w-40 in their 928 you have plenty of reasons to feel confident that you "caught the right tram"! The oil's viscosity is at near new and its ability to combat deposits and acids remain very high indeed
The oil (Delvac 1) and filter (MANN) were changed when the sample was taken
It is worth noting that by tracking both the oil's condition and the rate of wear metal(s) uptake the following data emerges;
a) the premium synthetic oil will last for at least two (2) years and probably three (3).
b) The Sodium "action" limit would be reached theoretically at around 90000kms
c) wear metal uptake rates indicate that the oil would last theoretically up to 80 000kms before any "action" limit is reached
d) the MANN oil filter will last for at least two years or 50 000kms
Even now with substantive "clinical" evidence to the contrary I do not advocate going beyond 12 months without changing the engine oil in a 928
I hope this is of value to some Rennlist people out there - there are now ten Used Oil Analysis results published that can be "trended" and used to monitor engine wear rates and the condition of the oil in their own car
Regards
07-03-06, 10:47 AM
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Maybe you could also take an oil sample, have it tested and share the results with us all. Then we could have some data to discuss.
Also, I was thinking part of the reason the oil may still look clean is because the rotary has less moving parts to wear and in turn fewer metal particles in the oil.
Thanks for your input guys
07-03-06, 11:27 AM
#15
I knw wht u did last sumr
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Don't get too excited there RoughRex, just wait till you drop that plug!
I too run Castrol 20w-50 and it looks nice and golden on the dipstick but that won't be the case when you go to drain it. Protect your baby and change that oil!
I too run Castrol 20w-50 and it looks nice and golden on the dipstick but that won't be the case when you go to drain it. Protect your baby and change that oil!
07-03-06, 11:39 AM
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I use the same setup as you roughrex, casterol 20W-50 and the "evil" fram filter, my oil is dirty, I dont have to change it that often but I will say that its not as dirty as the oil from my miata. Oil filters filter out metal flakes, carbon chunks, and other stuff. not contaminants.
And about those oil tests, In school we were told that just one sample of oil is meaningless. You have to have several samples, from several different oil changes.
And about those oil tests, In school we were told that just one sample of oil is meaningless. You have to have several samples, from several different oil changes.
07-03-06, 12:56 PM
#18
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Don't get too excited there RoughRex, just wait till you drop that plug!
07-03-06, 12:57 PM
#19
Opinions are like........
One used oil analysis sample is not meaningless. There is enough data at BOTG and Noria to draw conclusions on the oil condition with ONE UOA. But, trending is recommended if trying to be definite.
There is nothing wrong with Fram filters. The TG isn't a bad filter. I just don't care for the orange can'd ones. But, I think that there are better filters for the money.
Visually looking at the oil tells you nothing. Change it every 3k. And, for crying out loud, don't let your engine run a quart low. It should be topped off and monitored at every fuel fill up.
There is nothing wrong with Fram filters. The TG isn't a bad filter. I just don't care for the orange can'd ones. But, I think that there are better filters for the money.
Visually looking at the oil tells you nothing. Change it every 3k. And, for crying out loud, don't let your engine run a quart low. It should be topped off and monitored at every fuel fill up.
Last edited by deadRX7Conv; 07-03-06 at 01:03 PM.
07-03-06, 01:18 PM
#20
(N-word) please..anyone who knows rotarys knows that it burns oil..im just trying not to make the boy panic
..usually theres always something on the magnet..lol..words of wisdom there deadrx7conv..theres advice anyone can use..i still dont like fram tho..
:AA:
..usually theres always something on the magnet..lol..words of wisdom there deadrx7conv..theres advice anyone can use..i still dont like fram tho..:AA:
07-03-06, 01:25 PM
#21
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Oil filters filter out metal flakes, carbon chunks, and other stuff. not contaminants.
Visually looking at the oil tells you nothing
a visual inspection of oil will not tell you everything but, it certainly tells you SOMETHING! It's no big secret that oil turns black after picking up a lot of contaminants so, pretty looking golden oil obviously means less contaminants....at least of the conventional variety. The reason I was thinking of sending it to a lab is to see what else might be in it like...water, fuel, etc. (yes I'm aware that oil and water don't mix).
Let's try to avoid blanket statements and stick to facts here boys and girls.
Also...while I understand it's a common practice in this community; I will not be paranoid and check my oil level at every fuel fill up unless I have reason to believe there is something wrong with my car. It's not like it sucks oil by the gallon here folks. Now, if it starts consuming more oil...then I'll start checking it more often but, I'm not too concerned about being at the bottom mark after 3k...there is still a lot of oil left to go around.
Last edited by RoughRex; 07-03-06 at 01:34 PM.
07-03-06, 01:40 PM
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RoughRex, I see where you said it's been 3,000 miles, but I didn't see how long the oil had been in use. If it's been four months of short trips I'd change it at 3K miles. I used to change mine at 5,000 mile intervals using whatever name brand oil and filter was on sale. 90% of the time that filter ended up being Fram. If there is something wrong with Fram filters, in the 425,000+ miles I put on my S5, I was unable to find it.
07-03-06, 05:51 PM
#23
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Autozone special, $9.99 for 5 quarts Mobil Clean 5000 and an STP oil filter.
STP uses champion labs and is identical to bosch.
I think the oil will be alot blacker when you pull the drain plug. If i went by the dipstick color my oil would always be gold. Oil is cheap insurance, $10 every 3-6 months and it's fresh cooling and lubrication, The color of your oil has no direct correlation to it's life or how well it is working. http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm
STP uses champion labs and is identical to bosch.
I think the oil will be alot blacker when you pull the drain plug. If i went by the dipstick color my oil would always be gold. Oil is cheap insurance, $10 every 3-6 months and it's fresh cooling and lubrication, The color of your oil has no direct correlation to it's life or how well it is working. http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm
07-03-06, 08:02 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by RoughRex
Also...while I understand it's a common practice in this community; I will not be paranoid and check my oil level at every fuel fill up unless I have reason to believe there is something wrong with my car. It's not like it sucks oil by the gallon here folks. Now, if it starts consuming more oil...then I'll start checking it more often but, I'm not too concerned about being at the bottom mark after 3k...there is still a lot of oil left to go around.
so.... anyway....
yeah.
Dude, I've got a sweet little '88 vert with only 70k on her clock. The oil is clean every time I check the dipstick. But listen the words of the wise. Clean or dirty, oil breaks down over time. The clean oil is a good sign that you're engine is healthy, but you should defenitely change it.
And as for checking it?
YES BE PARANOID!
if you're oil is running low, that's less oil running to your VERY IMPORTANT moving parts. If you casually let your engine run low on oil all the time, I promise you, you'll wish you hadn't.
Besides, regularly checking your fluids should be practiced by any car owner. You'll probably catch signs of problems early on, such as contamination or leaking.
I check my oil every weekend.
Last edited by sykminded; 07-03-06 at 08:24 PM.
07-03-06, 08:35 PM
#25
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Well...I'm changing the oil tomorrow so, we'll see if it's just clean at the stick or not then.
Honesty, I'm not too concerned about the Fram, I just got a Purolator to see if it has an effect on visible oil contaminants. The last time I changed the oil was right before Deals Gap sooo, about 3 months in 50/50 stop and go/highway
True BUT...there's a difference between running a bit low and running low enough to cause a noteable reduction in engine life.
I followed this link and there is some handy info here:
The Dark Oil Myth
Dark oil does not indicate the need for an oil change. The way modern detergent motor oil works is that minute particles of soot are suspended in the oil. These minute particles pose no danger to your engine, but they cause the oil to darken. A non-detergent oil would stay clearer than a detergent oil because all the soot would be left on the internal engine parts and would create sludge. If you never changed your oil, eventually the oil would no longer be able to suspend any more particles in the oil and sludge would form. Fortunately, by following the manufacturer's recommended oil change interval, you are changing your oil long before the oil has become saturated. Remember, a good oil should get dirty as it does it's work cleaning out the engine. The dispersant should stop all the gunk from depositing in the oil pan.
The only real way to determine whether oil is truly in need of changing is to have an oil analysis performed. Since most people don't want to bother with this, it's acceptable to err heavily on the safe side and simply follow the manufacturer's recommended change interval for severe service. There are still a few cars that specify 3K intervals for severe service, but not many. If you look at countries other than the U.S., the oil recommended change interval is much higher than even the normal interval specified by vehicle manufacturers in the U.S.
This guy states that a detergent oil (like castrol GTX) will darken as it gains contaminants because they are suspended in the oil instead of left in the bottom of the oil pan. He also says that the best way to see when YOUR engine needs oil changes is to get the used oil analyzed. The way I see it...he's backing up my theory. I'm thinking I'll try a different oil on the next change too and see what that looks like.
RoughRex, I see where you said it's been 3,000 miles, but I didn't see how long the oil had been in use. If it's been four months of short trips I'd change it at 3K miles. I used to change mine at 5,000 mile intervals using whatever name brand oil and filter was on sale. 90% of the time that filter ended up being Fram. If there is something wrong with Fram filters, in the 425,000+ miles I put on my S5, I was unable to find it.
if you're oil is running low, that's less oil running to your VERY IMPORTANT moving parts. If you casually let your engine run low on oil all the time, I promise you, you'll wish you hadn't.
The color of your oil has no direct correlation to it's life or how well it is working. http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm
The Dark Oil Myth
Dark oil does not indicate the need for an oil change. The way modern detergent motor oil works is that minute particles of soot are suspended in the oil. These minute particles pose no danger to your engine, but they cause the oil to darken. A non-detergent oil would stay clearer than a detergent oil because all the soot would be left on the internal engine parts and would create sludge. If you never changed your oil, eventually the oil would no longer be able to suspend any more particles in the oil and sludge would form. Fortunately, by following the manufacturer's recommended oil change interval, you are changing your oil long before the oil has become saturated. Remember, a good oil should get dirty as it does it's work cleaning out the engine. The dispersant should stop all the gunk from depositing in the oil pan.
The only real way to determine whether oil is truly in need of changing is to have an oil analysis performed. Since most people don't want to bother with this, it's acceptable to err heavily on the safe side and simply follow the manufacturer's recommended change interval for severe service. There are still a few cars that specify 3K intervals for severe service, but not many. If you look at countries other than the U.S., the oil recommended change interval is much higher than even the normal interval specified by vehicle manufacturers in the U.S.
This guy states that a detergent oil (like castrol GTX) will darken as it gains contaminants because they are suspended in the oil instead of left in the bottom of the oil pan. He also says that the best way to see when YOUR engine needs oil changes is to get the used oil analyzed. The way I see it...he's backing up my theory. I'm thinking I'll try a different oil on the next change too and see what that looks like.