JWteknix

iTrader: (2)

when i pulled the fused and checked i was still getting battery voltage is that right or wrong?

JWteknix

iTrader: (2)

hailers is this wrong? bc i finally got the car running pretty well and then it died out went to restart it and the battery was soo weak it would barly crank. i think its running the battery dead i mean the battery isnt new and is pretty weak but the first time i cranked it she started right up ran for longer then before i didnt have a chance to log what happened. do you think i wired it wrong or the battery is just garbage?
thanks
james

HAILERS

I sorta didn't make that too clear. With the METER fuse pulled, key to ON, you Should still get power to the top wire on the alternators small plug. But you should not get it to the lower wire if the Meter fuse is pulled (key ON).

If you had not pulled the METER fuse, both wires would show batt voltage (because the white/black would have been backfeeding voltage thru the alt relay in the CPU) and therefore we wouldn't be able to tell if you had them swapped somewhere accidentaly. Anyway, with METER pulled, only the top wire should have batt voltage and the bottom wire no voltage, proving things are wired right.

IF that is happening, then I'd say you've got the thing wired right. The top wire is the only one that counts as far as the alternator itself working right. The bottom wire is just idiot light related. Curious, When you pull the METER fuse, do you lose power on the bottom wire?

I'd charge the battery. Then put a meter on the output wire on the alternator. The large output wire. Then start the engine up and see what voltage the alternator is putting out. It should be over 13vdc with the engine at or over 750 rpms.

Sometime you might charge the battery fully up, then pull one of the batt terminals off overnight and see if the battery is still charged up in the morning. Doesn't cost anything but a little time. IF it's dead/low, then it's a battery problem and not a alternator/car problem.

By the way, check the two small wires on the alternator small plug with the key OFF. There should be no voltage on either wire (if this is a series four alternator/car).

JWteknix

iTrader: (2)

ok awsome hailers!! will do, hopefully my battery is just bitch lol ill post the results in a little

JWteknix

iTrader: (2)

well everything checked out correct so i guess my bat is just garbage

JWteknix

iTrader: (2)

ok Hailers found out why the car has been cutting off on me. It losses fuel pressure after the key has been taken out of the crank position. i wired it as per nzconvert. now would this be a symptom of a bad relay or me ******* up the wiring? thanks
James

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Sorry didn't read the whole thread... you are using the Power FC adapter correct? Did you hook up the wire to the Circuit Opening Relay? Did you try jumpering the fuel pump check connector and leaving it in while you start the car, just for diagnostic purposes?

JWteknix

iTrader: (2)

yes, im using the pfc adaptor
yes , I hooked up COR wire to the brown wire in the center of FEM-02 on the front harness side with the wire from the PFC adaptor running towards the engine harness. Is this correct? What exactly is the COR wire for?
I have rewired the Aeromotive a1000 fuel pump like this, but the power and grounds for the pump were relocated w/ the pump
https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...8&d=1204038266
thanks
James

arghx

iTrader: (3)

You've done so much custom wiring on your car that I can't completely follow it.

What I will say is this: look at that diagram of the fuel pump wiring that you posted. Look at terminal 86 on the relay, which goes to the blue wire on the harness. The circuit opening relay supplies the voltage to that... it is triggering your relay.

On a stock T2, the AFM switches a ground to the circuit opening relay which switches 12V to that blue wire on your fuel pump harness. Since you don't have an AFM anymore, you run that wire off the PFC adapter to the brown wire on the plug, which is connected to the circuit opening relay, in order to replace the signal provided by the AFM. Now since your car starts up ok, we know the fuel pump is getting triggered at some point during the start process. You just need to make sure that the fuel pump is still running after the car is running with the key merely in the "on" position, not "start." I wish I could give you a more specific answer, but I am not completely clear on whether you may have messed with any of the wires which go to the circuit opening relay or not. I'm honestly kinda lost with some of what you did and I am bewildered that you took the hardest route possible it seems with this swap.

If you want to be absolutely sure the pump is running, first try and jumper the fuel pump check connector like I said. You should hear the pump running with the key in the on position and the engine off, and I imagine it would continue to work with the engine actually running. If you have to, as a test procedure run straight 12V from the battery directly to the fuel pump side of the fuel pump harness. Then see if your fuel pressure is better when you try to run the car. But since you don't have a wideband you still don't really know what the engine is doing.

JWteknix

iTrader: (2)

So, maybe its possible that I hooked up the COR wire incorrectly? Does it sound like is connected correctly?
If it is wrong and i go to jump the pump tomorrow it shouldnt work right?
So, tomorrow first thing I'm gonna see is if the jumper in the engine bay works If that doesnt work, I'm gonna go over all my wiring, then try swithing the COR wire.
Hopefully I can get it working right. Worst comes to worst I'll just put a switch in for it. I just wanted everything to work the way it is supposed to w/ the car.
The only reason why I opted to do every thing the hard way is b/c when I first got the car it was a shell completely stripped of everything. I had all the parts from my 88tII to put in to it so I figured I should just make it all work w/ what I got and it seemed to work out pretty well. It will also be the best way in the long run because I replaced all the garbage and hacked up harneses w/ my completely redone and like new harnesses. Anyway, I'll let you guys know what happens tomorrow. Thanks for the help.
James

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Remember, you are supposed to hook the COR wire on the PFC adapter to the dash harness side of the connector, not to the emissions harness side, at least on a regular T2 like mine. So you can check that.

Jumpering the check connector supplies a ground in the same way that the AFM does in a stock car, except that the AFM ground is switched and the check connector keeps the pump running as long as the key is in the on position. So if you jumper that connector it doesn't necessarily mean that you hooked the adapter up correctly, but it does mean that the rest of the fuel pump wiring is working. If you jumper the connector and the pump doesn't run, then something else is screwed up with your circuit opening relay wiring. It's hard for me to speculate what that mistake could be because of your custom setup.

If you do get the car running by giving the fuel pump straight 12V, you may be able to bypass the circuit opening relay completely as a long term solution if you don't feel like tracing through a gazillion OEM harnesses. I am only speculating now, but here's something that you could do. Look at your fuel pump wiring diagram that you just posted. Run the COR wire from the adapter to the 86 terminal on the relay, to provide a switched ground. Then run the 85 terminal to constant or ignition power... it doesn't have to have a lot of current (you can use a small gauge wire) as this is part of the relay's triggering coil. That is something I would attempt. I'd say there's a better than 50/50 chance it would work, but I do not know all the in's and out's of the PFC to know when exactly it's supposed to switch that ground--it may not switch when the car is cranking over, meaning the car wouldn't start.

JWteknix

iTrader: (2)

ok soo jumped the connector in the engine bay and the pump did nothing. so I went over my wiring w/ the diagram its all correct and hooked up the same way as pictured i took voltage readings at the blue wire and wasnt receiving anything voltage w/ the connector jumped. where does the blue wire get voltage from? would it just be easiest to try wiring it the way argx said? bc I know if I just give the pump 12v. it will run.

JWteknix

iTrader: (2)

actually just went to through the FSM and traced the circuit and its really not that difficult of one.
from the fuel pump connector the blue wire goes and splits before the connector FR-02 which connects the front and rear harnesses.
After the connector the two blue wires merge together to one wire to meet at F-08 at the COR.
Ignition switch 1 power source suppies power to a B/W wire that also runs to F-08 to the COR
the Brown wire is circuit ground

So who wants to bet a thousand dollars that im missing the actual COR relay. Its mounted up front right? and this is just a guess my car is about a mile away from me at the moment. but from the symotomes and diagram thats what i think. i wont be abled to find out to later. what you guys think?
James

JWteknix

iTrader: (2)

umm.. went up to the car looking for the relay or loose connector i found nothing resembling the COR or like the F-08 connector. Where the **** is this thing located?
thanks
james

JWteknix

iTrader: (2)

page 4A- 74 show how to check it but nothing about where its located

HAILERS

F-08 is the plug on the Circuit Opening Relay located just above your knees. Near the steering shaft and a bit to the right???? It's where people put a fuel cut switch on one of it's wires.

Ok. Now I see what COR is. It's a lazy way of saying Circuit Opening Relay. I was puzzled for a long time about COR. I thought it was some aftermarket ECU thing.

IF and I mean IF I remember right, the ENGINE fuse feeds that BW wire to the circuit Opening Relay. The ENGINE fuse in turn is fed from the ignition switch. Sooooooooooooo, if the key is to ON , and the ENGINE fuse is good, then you should have battery voltage at the BW wire in the Circuit Opening Relay.

That BW wire also feeds the MAIN Relay and pulls it in. So if the MAIN RELAY is pulling in, you'd think the Engine fuse and igniton switch are good.

The circuit opening relay has two coils that can pull it in and feed the fuel pump. One coil is controled by the switch being put to START and held there. That should cause the blue wire on the fuel pump connector to have batt voltag anytime the key is HELD to START. The other coil is controlled by a ground being put on its coil. That ground comes from one of two places. Either from the vane in the afm moving aft a fraction of an inch OR by you jumpering the fuel pump check connector and having the key to ON. The circuit opening relay should have pulled in and fed batt voltage to the blue wire on the fuel pumps connector when you did that. Pushing the afm's vane aft any distance should also have put a gnd on the circuit opening relay and cause the fuel pump to have batt voltage on its blue wire.

HAILERS

Anyway, what makes the circuit opening relay pull in when the engine is actually running, is a BROWN (BR) wire that leaves the afm and goes to FEM-02. From FEM-02 it continues on to the circuit opening relays electrical plug. That wire carrys a ground signal when the afm vane is pulled aft OR the fuel pump check connector is jumpered with a piece of wire.

FEM-02 and the BR wire are shown at the bottom of page 50-25 in the 88 online manual. Then you leave that page and go to 50-34 where the circuit opening relay is. That gnd is supplying a gnd to ONE of the circuit opening relays coils. That coil has power if the key is to ON.

If you find the F-08 plug, you could pull it off the relay and jumper a wire b/t the BW wire and the BLUE wire and the pump should run if the key is to ON, proving the rest of the wiring to the pump is good.

JWteknix

iTrader: (2)

ok I found the COR its there and plugged in. engine fuse is good. I have battery voltage to the middle B/W wire in F-08 and none from the blue wires. so if I understand you, the blue wire should shouldnt be receiving voltage until i crank the car. ok ill check that asap if that works then where would that leave me w/ an open some where?

JWteknix

iTrader: (2)

ok jumped the wires and the pump runs.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

What wires did you jumper exactly?

You could run the wire labeled "COR" on the PFC adapter to the terminal on the circuit opening relay itself (the terminal which is supposed to read the signal from the AFM), bypassing the stock harnesses. I think the PFC adapter instructions has you running it to the FEM-02 connector (instead of directly to the COR) just for ease of installation.

This is consistent with your symptoms then. Start signal from the ignition switch ran the pump during cranking, but for whatever reason the ground from the PFC was not getting to the circuit opening relay to keep the pump going while the key is no longer in the start position.

JWteknix

iTrader: (2)

the blue and B/W wire at the COR. Proving my wiring is correct, but theres still something wrong with the stock wiring, so I am to beleive. I would like to figure it out maybe it will reveil any other problems I might encounter later on and save me some headache, but if its really that big of a problem, I'll just bypass it like you said. Hailers what do you think?
James

HAILERS

I'm lost sorta. I mean, what's this deal with a gnd coming from the PFC??????

The ground that pulls in the circuit opening relay comes from the afm or the fuel pump check connector. It never goes to the ECU on any series four RX. So. Nor from a series five if memory serves.

So I'd go to the BROWN wire on the circuit opening relay and put a meter on it. Ohms. Then either push the afm vane aft or jumper the fuel pump check connector one. The meter should read less than an ohm.

In someways you've done the equiv in the past, I think. So the only connector b/t the circuit opening relay and the afm, is the connector called FEM-02 or in some manuals called X-16. It should be a BROWN wire in the EM half of the plug mating with a BROWN wire in the F half of the plug. That BROWN wire should be on the bottom row of that plug, right in the middle of the plug. That FEM-02 has 13 pins/sockets in it. Orange in color. You've been there before.

OR you could pull that circuit opening relay plug off again. Then find a long piece of wire, bare at each end. Cut enough insulation off one end where you can shove it up the back of the BROWN wire in the plug. Then put the plug back on the circuit opening relay. Now key to ON. While the key is to ON, touch the other end of that new wire to a known gnd. When you do , the relay should pull in and the pump run. All this does is prove the RELAY is good or not. If it pulls in, then the problem lies b/t the circuit opening relays plug and the afm/fuel pump check connector.

But then again, if you look at page 50-25, you'll see the Fuel Pump Circuit Terminal (I've been calling it the fuel pump check connector), and how it has two wires. One is BROWN and the other is BLACK. The BLACK is the one that is actually connected to gnd 24hrs a day. Maybe it's NOT actually going to a gnd anywhere and that is the problem. So. Go to that plug before you do any of the above. Look at the two socket yellow connector and find the pure black wire (on some early cars it will be brown/black). Now either take a meter to that wire with the meter on ohms, and see if it has less than a ohm resistance. Or barring that, just get a piece of wire bare at each end and shove one end up the back of the BLACK wire., The other end to a known gnd like??? The bare engine housing? or such. If the key is to ON, then the fuel pump should be running now. You just need to gnd the BLACK wire and do nothing other than put the key to ON to get the pump to run. Make sure the circuit opening relay is plugged in when doing that.

I'd do that last pargagaph first. Your just missing that gnd for some reason or the other. Odd since that BLACK wire is also going to the gnds for the ECU itself. Do it. If the pump won't run after doing that, then use that meter to make sure the BLACK wire is less than one ohm (NO key ON at all when checking with the meter).

If the black wire is less than an ohm, then the BROWN wire is open somewhere. The only connector is the FEM-02 in that circuit. The BROWN wire in FEM-02 is in the same place on a non turbo harness as in a Turbo harness, so any work you've done shouldn't have effected it in any way. It's just a mystery.

The gnd from the PFC will just have to remain a mystery to me.

HAILERS

Well I thought about that PFC dealeo. It the PFC is pull the circuit opening relay in, the only way I see that, is if the PFC put POWER on the OTHER black/white wire on the circuit opening relay.

Normally that OTHER black/white wire is fed batt voltage from the START signal from the ignition key. The ignition key when turned to Start, sends batt voltage to the starter solenoid AND also TO the ECU via pin 3B on the ECU small plug. All that happens when this is done on a normal car, is let the ECU know the car is starting. It does nothing more, nothing less. Just a heads up to the ECU.

So, maybe this PFC dealeo actually sends batt voltage OUT of the ECU TO the circuit opening relay once the engine starts up. Now that makes sense. So make sure pin 3B is there on the ECU. It's a Black/Blue wire.

JWteknix

iTrader: (2)

well have the car idleing properly now I wired the the COR wire from the banzai adaptor backwards and once disconnecting that brown wire at FEM-02 it no longer allows the check connector to function properly. That why I was having such a problem trying to figure this out. Thanx for all your help guys
James.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

http://www.banzai-racing.com/S4_PFC_install.htm

When you install the PFC, there is an unterminated wire included in the adapter which is supposed to connect to FEM-02 to replace the ground from the AFM, which is removed when you install the PFC. It's a workaround for AFM removal. Make sense? I'm pretty sure that the other functions of the COR are the same, namely that the key in the start position makes it go.