why do people mess with the OMP?
#201
I still trust the OMP to do its job. Also, thank you guys for actually doing some testing and figuring out what is truth from baloney. It's good to see that at least some of you are willing to do that [NZ, Hailers, Rotorman99, and whoever else deserves recognition].
#202
HAILERS
Join Date: May 2001
Location: FORT WORTH, TEXAS,USA
Posts: 20,563
Likes: 0
Received 22 Likes
on
20 Posts
Oh now THIS is AWESOME.
So Hailers.... are you saying that the results of your test with a functioning OMP on a RUNNING engine is completely different from what rotaman99 aka viperdude got with his questionable OMP on a bench with his drill that may or may not be running the the correct direction? Let me sum this up, Rotaman says 0 pressure, Hailers says >40psi.................... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I said it before & I stand by it. I'd listen to Hailers talk about nuclear physics before I took lessons from rotaman about the proper way to calculate the right length of shoe laces to buy.
So Hailers.... are you saying that the results of your test with a functioning OMP on a RUNNING engine is completely different from what rotaman99 aka viperdude got with his questionable OMP on a bench with his drill that may or may not be running the the correct direction? Let me sum this up, Rotaman says 0 pressure, Hailers says >40psi.................... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I said it before & I stand by it. I'd listen to Hailers talk about nuclear physics before I took lessons from rotaman about the proper way to calculate the right length of shoe laces to buy.
1. The engine pump that supplys pressure to rotor bearings and the oil cooler etc, supplies NO pressure to the OMP at all. Pressure is the key word.
2. IF you blockoff three of the four OUTPUT lines on the OMP, and attach a gauge to the single output line left in place, then you'll see the pressure in THAT line increase with rpms. Remember, that line is deadended with the aftermarket oil pressure gauge. In my case a SunPro with nylon tubing that just fits inside a OMP output line.
3. But also remember this. If I had left the other three lines going to oil nozzles, I doubt I'd have seen doodley squat on the SunPro that was attached to that single line. The oil and pressure would have gone to the other three lines. That's why you can put your finger over a single output line and have no problem at all stopping the oil from coming out. It just finds the path of least resistance to go to. That would have been one of the other lines IF they had been connected to the OMP.
4. So, remember once more, I had common bolts stopping up the other three output ports on the OMP when I did this.
5. I was surprised at seeing the forty psi prior to the SunPro sensing line being blown out of the OMP output line. How high would it have gone? Got me. I just put the lines back on the OMP so I can drive the turbo car instead of the na.
6. By the way, I still had a open line connected to the NEW nipple I had installed into the OMP feed cavity, and no oil rose up that line when I had the engine at high revs. That's why I say the engine oil pump does not apply pressure on the OMP. None at all.
#203
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Once again, agree with everything you said
1) Yes, & when you described that to me on the other forum I went and pulled out my spare TII front cover and looked where you told me to look. It's being fed.. sorta. All the pressure, or at least a very good amount of it is being purged into the pan.
2) Rotaman tried that exact thing on a bench and running the OMP with a drill. He got ZERO pressure on the gauge. Infact, he was saying that the force from the gauge was pushing the oil back down the line. I'll take your real world test over his botched ramblings in a dungeon where good cars go to be tortured anyday of the week and twice on Sunday and becuase it is what it is, three times on Friday
3&4) OMP output if you will is common chamber so this follows logic and I agree. By stopping the other three you are getting the total output. However, it should be pointed out that if one line gets schmegged or kinked, no oil will flow through that line. Like you said - path of least resistance.
5) That actually surprised me too, but I think that kinda ends the debate of this turbo boost = no injection crap anyway you want to slice it.
6) So does the OMP rely on vacuum to pull the oil into the pump? It must if there is ZERO pressure there and the oil is basically resting there.
Hailers = definitive. Can this DIE NOW?
1) Yes, & when you described that to me on the other forum I went and pulled out my spare TII front cover and looked where you told me to look. It's being fed.. sorta. All the pressure, or at least a very good amount of it is being purged into the pan.
2) Rotaman tried that exact thing on a bench and running the OMP with a drill. He got ZERO pressure on the gauge. Infact, he was saying that the force from the gauge was pushing the oil back down the line. I'll take your real world test over his botched ramblings in a dungeon where good cars go to be tortured anyday of the week and twice on Sunday and becuase it is what it is, three times on Friday
3&4) OMP output if you will is common chamber so this follows logic and I agree. By stopping the other three you are getting the total output. However, it should be pointed out that if one line gets schmegged or kinked, no oil will flow through that line. Like you said - path of least resistance.
5) That actually surprised me too, but I think that kinda ends the debate of this turbo boost = no injection crap anyway you want to slice it.
6) So does the OMP rely on vacuum to pull the oil into the pump? It must if there is ZERO pressure there and the oil is basically resting there.
Hailers = definitive. Can this DIE NOW?
#204
HAILERS
Join Date: May 2001
Location: FORT WORTH, TEXAS,USA
Posts: 20,563
Likes: 0
Received 22 Likes
on
20 Posts
***************(6) So does the OMP rely on vacuum to pull the oil into the pump? It must if there is ZERO pressure there and the oil is basically resting there.************
The pump portion of the OMP sucks the oil out of the cavity, much like the engine oil pump sucks the oil out of the pan.
Both Titanium and Rotaman have your two stroke feed on the aft end of the pump on the rear cover. I drilled my feed like Patman???? into the cavity that gets filled by the engine. So I'm asking, what happen to that *device* on the inside of that cover where you welded the new feed pipe?? Did it somehow stay spot welded on the inside of the rear cover????
The Device is the pronged outfit on the inside of the rear cover, that seems to locate the cam if memory serves.
The pump portion of the OMP sucks the oil out of the cavity, much like the engine oil pump sucks the oil out of the pan.
Both Titanium and Rotaman have your two stroke feed on the aft end of the pump on the rear cover. I drilled my feed like Patman???? into the cavity that gets filled by the engine. So I'm asking, what happen to that *device* on the inside of that cover where you welded the new feed pipe?? Did it somehow stay spot welded on the inside of the rear cover????
The Device is the pronged outfit on the inside of the rear cover, that seems to locate the cam if memory serves.
#205
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
I bought the Real World solutions/Rotary Aviation piece and my motor has not even fired yet. The piece I build for rotoman, yes I drilled through the center of the cam retainer and TIG welded everything into one piece
#206
S5 TII
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry for the delayed reply...
Nothing was leaking externally.
I looked at the lines several times a day once I suspected the problem; most the time the lines would be empty, sometimes there would be a little oil in the lines. Also, I did a simple test of holding a screwdriver against the OMP and putting my ear up to it, and found that (as far as I could tell) it wasn't working.
Its an S5 TII.
My mechanic/good friend of mine took a look at it and confirmed my suspicions of a failing OMP. He was with me when I tested the compression and found the engine needed a transplant. Also, it was a while ago, but I'm almost positive he did some tests (i'm not exactly sure what exactly) on it before we tore the engine apart and confirmed it wasn't working properly. At the time I knew little to nothing about the OMP system.
Nothing was leaking externally.
When you say it was working intermitantly, how did you observe this?
The only thing in the S4 OMP I can see possibly getting stuck is the plunger with the spring at the front of the OMP, but I think that would still be a long shot.
If it was pumping in air bubbles, then the OMP was working, there was just a leak some where. Atleast thats how it sounds to me but I never looked at your motor or OMP at the time.
#207
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Fallston, MD
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its basically a frictional loss of the air against the side of the manifold, but this is a different effect and is due to the air already flowing (not the reason that it is flowing). Im sure you've heard of pressure drops across an intercooler or something, right? same thing! However, the air is originally flowing because of the expansion (and thus lower pressure) inside the combustion chamber, and compared to this lower pressure, the head pressure loss of flowing through the manifold at WOT is insignificant.
And the pressure drop across an intercooler is primarily due to an increase in volume (and cooling the air), not headloss.
Last edited by rarson; 08-10-07 at 01:13 PM.
#208
Rotary Freak
iTrader: (1)
i didnt mean a drop in pressure from inside the tube to inside the IC, i meant from tubing of a certain diameter on one side of the IC to tubing of the same diameter on the other, which is how the IC pressure drop is normally measured. No increase due to volume there, its all head losses through the IC
#209
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Fallston, MD
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I really think thats how it works now that you got me thinking from reading yours and NZ's posts. Like I said earlier, this makes more sense to me then the OMP being a high pressure pump due to how slow the pumping action is and since the tolerences are not that tight.
To quote Penn & Teller: "Reality is not democratic." We can all sit here and vote on how we think the OMP works, and it's not going to do a damn thing to change the reality of how it actually works.
It doesn't matter whether you're right or not. The fact is that you don't KNOW if you are or not, and yet you're using fallacy arguments to present your opinion as some kind of fact. If you want to interject your two-cents, fine, but do so with the understanding that you don't completely grasp the subject and all the "testing" that you've done.
In other words, pull your head out of your *** and stop presenting yourself as an expert. Anyone that knows you knows that your advice need be taken with a grain of salt. I'd even go so far as to say that you're "help" is consistently less than helpful, and sometimes harmful and dangerous.
PS- to anyone on the forum entertaining the notion of listening to his advice: I would consider it unwise to take the advice from a completely anonymous self-professed expert on all subjects, especially when said expert cannot even type in complete and understandable sentences. And sorry for the long-winded, off-topic post.
#210
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Fallston, MD
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i didnt mean a drop in pressure from inside the tube to inside the IC, i meant from tubing of a certain diameter on one side of the IC to tubing of the same diameter on the other, which is how the IC pressure drop is normally measured. No increase due to volume there, its all head losses through the IC
But my point is that temperature is inextricably related to pressure, and vice versa. So to talk about one without the other when talking about friction and headloss is to forget almost half the equation.
#211
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
I would like to point out that his last activity was in this thread. When he was proved wrong & incompetent & given the e-paddle, but mostly he was proven wrong & completely incapable of any testing whatsoever - he quickly started using a different name so he could continue he ill-concieved persona of actually helping the rotary community and spreading needed and decent knowledge.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post