HAILERS

EDIT:

Actually to check that out will require removing the manifold and looking at one injector at a time. Ugggggh. Not going to happen. And I think I'd have to look at both sides of the nozzle. Even less of a chance to happen. I just read the NZ post and I think I'll settle for that. No one would make a system that didn't work under boost pressure, anyway.

Go away OMP thread. Close this damn thing. It's no more useful than the ones that preceded it and they all had at least three hundred posts on each of 'em.

Dinnercoat

So nothing is actually driving the pump portion of the OMP other than pressure differentials?

HAILERS

Aw, man, come on.

There is an input shaft going to the omp. That shaft is driven by a gear on the eccentric shaft.

The input shaft turns a worm gear in the OMP. This causes the cylinders in the above jpg to spin. This makes the OMP pump oil. The oil leaves the OMP up the four lines to the injectors. There it is dispersed into the rotor chambers. The low pressure in the rotors INTAKE stroke causes a low pressure area so the oil is sucked into the rotor chamber. I'd suggest downloading the Traing Manual who's url I left in a post above and look at the LUBRICATION seciton.

I really hate the way this forum is set up. You can't use common typing procedures to TYPE. Goddamn it. It is screwed up. Fix the damn thing so a person can type a frigging sentence and make indentations.

Useless OMP threads suck.

Dinnercoat

What I figured, someone mentioned earlier that they fully removed their OMP and ran tubing for it to get oil from and it worked so I got a little confused there.

Calm down, no need to be a dick.

HAILERS

That doesn't make any sense.
The entire intake is pressurized equally.
If the turbo is making boost, then the engine is at WOT or close to it.
This means the TB is open or close to fully open.
There is no restriction from the TB.

There has to be pressure in the oil injection system.
How can you inject oil under boost?
It doesn't matter what the check valve does or if there is an equalization of pressure across the oil injector.
The oil (pressure) still has to push it's way into the engine...against the boost pressure.
If it cannot do this, then there is no oil injection under boost...which is a stupid assumption.
The oil injection is high pressure but very low volume.
The oil pressure coming off the front cover is very high - something like 150psi?
Remember, it's called an oil METERING pump, although the word "pump" is not used in the strictest sense in terms of producing pressure.

Yeah, blah blah blah, you guys like to regurgitate the references, but you lose sight of the fact of basic engineering theory.
You can only get liquid flowing from one area to another area via a pressure differential, period.
Since we can throw out the fact that the intake cycle has nothing to do with it - since at WOT, the engine is either at "0" or positive pressure from boost - the only other deduction is that the oil has to be pressurized through the oil injection system.

Oh, now I understand where the word "compression" came from.
It was just a bad translation from the original Japanese text.
Apologies for pointing fingers for bad use of the English language - you were just taking it verbatim from a bad translation! :P


-Ted
__________________
reted_2000@yahoo.com
Technical Advisor
FC3S Pro

LIke I mentioned in a post above somewhere, the OMP is indeed a pump. Blockoff the oil supply from the front cover. Drill a hole in the OMP to feed oil from a bottle. Put the bottle below the engine, like on the ground. Start the engine and hold the omp rod full up while at two grand. Oil WILL flow out of the bottle below the engine, into the OMP and out the OMP. The exit lines on the OMP do not have to be conennected to anything to do this. Proves the OMP is a pump.

Not only that, but put one line in a container and see how much oil has been collected after five minutes of the above procedure. It will meet or exceed the value in the FSM, Lubrication section.

Get a spare front cover and a air hose/nozzle. Blow into the small oil feed hole on the left side of the cover. Most all the air will be expelled out the split pin that holds the omp drive gear on. Some goes up the shaft to feed the omp oil, BUT ever notice the LARGE drain hole that dumps whats not needed back into the pan? There's really no pressure there to speak of imhumbleopinion.

phoenix7

why does hailers have RETed's sig??

fc.fanatic

I'm guessing he ment to quote him.

fc.fanatic

don't be jealous, u can be my hero too, lmao.

imloggedin

LOL

toplessFC3Sman

iTrader: (1)

well, if you want to get technical, there is a pressure differential through the air intake from the TB to inside the housings as the rotors are pulling air in, otherwise no fluid (the fluid in this case being air) would flow into the intake ports and into the engine. It just doesnt take a very big pressure differential to move a light fluid such as air.

Im not saying that its this pressure differential that pushes oil in, because its not. It can be likened more to the purpose that a FPR has for the fuel injectors... it keeps the pressure differential across the injector constant (in the case of the OMP, almost 0) so that the flow of gas (or oil in this case) is constant, or at least well known and documented and designed to spec.

The OMP is a high-pressure, low flow pump... or rather its capable of high pressures at a low flow rate, but because of the injectors and that its never trying to pump oil into a sealed, pressurized container, you'll never see the maximum pressure it can achieve in normal usage because there is always a 'leak' or outlet; the injectors. almost regardless of what boost you are running, the OMP is capable of a much greater pressure, so that the oil supply into the injectors can be assumed as constant, given an engine speed and throttle position.

RETed

Not true...
Anyone who does the TB mod with the stock ECU can attest to this.
Very low low RPM, romp on the throttle and what happens?
The engine bogs due to not enough intake velocity.

Gotta be careful about pressure differential with existing intake velocity.
At higher RPM's, the intake charge is already moving pretty good.
Snapping open the TB will cause the entire intake tract to equalize.
This is ignoring all the complex Dynamic Effect though.


-Ted

RotaMan99

Just to further this, when the cylinders spin, the to lobs on the cylinder rub against the lobs on the control lever which pushes the cylinder down, there is a spring, shown in the pic, on the other side which pushes the cylinder back up after the lobs seporate, this is what causes the pump action. The more the lever is turned, the the deeper the cylinder gets pushed down, and the more oil that gets pumped.

Thats funny. How the hell would I be jealous of reted? So far he has shown nothing bad misinformation on the OMP system. I don't want to be anyones hero, and if reted is your hero, then you still need professional help.

Not sure if I said it in this thread but thats what I did. I ran the pump with my corded drill while it was on a spare front cover. I wouldn't have done it that way if I didn't have a spare gear since I knew the way I was running it would ruin the driver gear.

Some people just don't understand huh?

They will all be usless since no one wants to learn why and how it really works. Not only that, they never want to believe that its reliabe have to the be a paranoid owner. I can't see my self being paranoid over it since its made most engines last well over 180K miles.

gez, Ok, show me your test. There is no real tight tolerences in the OMP, I can't see it being a HIGH PRESSURE pump. If it was a HIGH PRESSURE pump then it would spray oil all over the place correct? Since you say its a LOW FLOW pump which is correct, it would not spray very much. Guess what, it doesn't spray in the numorous testings that I have done with it. I have never seen anything under high pressure ooooz out. Now I don't know how the inital spray would look like when the output side (intake mani side of the injector) is under pressure as well, that is if it actually is under pressure and not vacuum that close to the rotor face. My guess is that the OMP would slowly build up pressure and since the output side might have pressure as well, it wouldn't spray out. IF this was the case, then the pump would be a variable pressure pump correct? Wednesday I will do some pressure testing on the pump.

I really can't see the pump creating any real pressure. Im talking over 2-3+ psi.

Also because the secondaries open up to which also tremendously reduces intake velocity in the primary runners since now the vacuum created by the rotor is distributed into 2 ports. I did a little testing on this too.

RotaMan99

Why is EVERYTHING of teds in his post. Weird.

RETed

Interesting coming from someone who posts "bad misinformation" (double negative?) also...


-Ted

HAILERS

Hailers hit the QUOTE button on Ted's post. That is why Ted's words appear on Hailers post. I made no attempt to seperate the quote from my words. FYI

RETed

Funny, I figured that out in 3 seconds.
Wonder why it took others longer?


-Ted

fc.fanatic

Ok, I have come to the conclusion that it is best for me to stay out of these threads, looks like the rotary kings get to be a little touchy when they are battling it out.

NZConvertible

This is very wrong. Any time you have air moving through a pipe there will be a pressure drop due to the restriction caused by the pipe surface, bends, dividing junctions, etc. That pressure drop increases to the square of velocity. This is basic fluid dynamics. The velocities in an inlet manifold are pretty high and there's a corresponding pressure drop from one end of the manifold to the other. Plus there is a pressure drop through the TB and it would be crazy to claim otherwise.

The oil nozzle air lines are basically run in parallel with the intake manifold itself. One end is connected in front of the throttles and in the case of the chamber nozzles the other end is connected directly to the chamber. During the intake stroke the pressure difference that that causes air to move through the intake system and into the chamber is the same pressure difference that that causes air to move through the oil nozzle air lines. Again this is basic fluids.

Based on the above I could accuse you of exactly the same thing...

There's no bad translation, the word "compression" is correctly describing the engine compression stroke. Where do you think the massive pressure in the chamber would go if the check valves weren't there?

RETed

I wasn't about to go into all the dizzying details about this.
You're right.
But the question is...how much of a difference?
I think it's very negligible.
For the most part, the intake charge is equalized over the entire intake tract *VERSUS* having the throttle plates closed - would that be easier to understand?


Not if the above were true...


I'm talking "compression" from the turbo producing positive boost.


-Ted

toplessFC3Sman

iTrader: (1)

It would only spray if it were a high pressure, high flow pump, or if we were dealing with a compressible fluid. Since we're talking about oil, an incompressible fluid, it would only spray if there were a restriction to the oil's flow, allowing the line to fill up and any air trapped in the line to pressurize, or the line to begin to deform (very slightly, but it would balloon a tiny bit), causing the pressure. Now, "high pressure" is used relatively... im not talking about the 150 psi that the oil pump makes, rather I mean "high pressure" relative to the difference in pressure seen at the injector. Sure, this may only be 10 psi (capability, if it were fighting a closed chamber) or so, not a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, but compared to the head pressure loss of the air flowing from before the TB down into the intake, its signifcant. During the intake stroke, its probably more than an order of magnitude greater at full throttle, and only a couple psi greater at closed throttle. This way you get a big pressure differential at WOT between the oil and chamber, injecting a lot of oil, and a small differential at low-load, injecting a small amount of oil.

HAILERS

It gets atomized by the air flowing thru the nozzles top to the interior of the rotor housing.

RotaMan99

About the OMP? Nope.

From what I understand, pressure in general can only build if there is restriction to the flow or not allowing the fluid to expand when it heats up like coolant. So if this had 10psi of pressure, there would have to be restriction causing pressure to build, and since there is restriction, say the injector, which is not true, or the fittings on the hose ends, which is not true either, it would spray. Depending on how high the pressure gets and how high the restriction is, will decide how many CC's of oil flows through the line.

Again, I can't see this being a high pressure pump

NZConvertible

I should've also mentioned the considerable vacuum generated by the engine during the intake stroke. The point is that during the intake stroke the pressure at the TB end of the air lines is greater than the pressure at the nozzle end even under boost, so air flows through them. Your earlier claim that no air flows under boost is simply wrong.

Don't worry, you don't need to make it any easier for me. But we're talking about boost conditions, so what happens when the throttles are closed isn't really irrelevant.

But the Training Manual is not. It's talking about the engine's compression stroke, so it's not a bad translation as you said.

TitaniumTT

Hailers, NZ - you know him from the other forum as Viperdude, RXFC3S, RotoMan, VIPERDUDE!!! Seriously -why are you wasting your time? He's been screwing around with OMP since I stripped myself of my dignity and built that piece for him almost a YEAR AGO!!!!!

For everyone else, this is who you are arguing with

Read some of Rarsons Links in the below thread.
http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread.php?t=52754

http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread.php?t=53197
http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread.php?t=54621

It's getting VERY old and just consider anything that he posts to be wrong, and don't waste YOUR time with him. Other people in the community could benefit from your experience. He will never agree with you regardless of the time you put into your posts, regardless of the proof that you provide whether it be real world experience, or SAE findings - it doesn't matter. Stop wasting you time with him and all his other ramblings. He is one of the few people that should be stripped of all thier tools and anything rotary related.

imloggedin

genuine questions i wanna know...

why?

so if i have a bendy straw and blow in one end while blocking the other the pressure is going to be less on the end im blocking? why? and if so.. how much less? we're not talking about a mile of pipe.

also, doesnt that mean all boost gauges are wrong if they arent hooked up to a vacuum source thats directly on the block???