RotaMan99

Filthy motor oil? Do you not run an oil filter? Do you run cheap filters? Cheap Oil? Do you not get oil changes every 3000 miles? The OMP system has been making these engines run for well over 140K-200K miles. Tell me why I should worry about the OMP system?

SpeedOfLife

iTrader: (16)

I didn't say you should worry about the OMP system, only that it makes sense that your motor could last longer premixing instead. And even with filtering the oil is still dirty and there's always the possibility of bypass in the filter.

Meatkibble

Here is the thing...in the end, its up to the owner of the car. The OMP vs Premix battle can last an eternity, however only you can chose in the end.

Personally Im still trying to decide what I want to run, and my thought to you is keep doing the research, and figure it out...

johnmasters

I'm pretty sure that my OMP is working because I check my oil often and my car does use a bit of oil between oil changes(every 3000) but, since I have owned the car, I have always run a bit of premix at every fill up as well just in case. If I forget or run out, I dont stress out and after 210,000 miles it still starts fine and runs great.

Dinnercoat

Also in regards to premix is this site from the 1st gen section:

http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/cfaqtext.html#MIXOIL

RETed

IBTL!


-Ted

RotaMan99

Your Right, The damage is already done though. Premixing is a PITA. MOdify the OMP to inject 2 stroke.

This depends on the oil filter you are using. Cheap oil filters will bypass and good oil filters will not bypass. Good filters will also filter down to 7-14 micron. Nothing to worry about.

It is up to the owner to decide. I just don't want them to switch to premixing because they think the OMP system (any component) will fail because they are told or think it works one way when it actually works the other.

I have done all the research I need to, more then most people in this thread! I have tested and passed many differernt hurdles with my modification that im doing. Premixing is the clean burning way to go but is also the more expensive, dirty and pita way to go.

??

j0rd4n

i don't see how premixing can extend the life of the *engine* that much more than the standard omp system. imo, the 2-stroke omp mod makes the most sense in terms of engine life: you're getting all the advantages of 2-stoke over 4-stroke (less carbon buildup, etc?) without the possbility of clogging the injectors or fuel filter quicker (none of which i've experienced, but have only read on the subject)

Dinnercoat

It can extend the life in the sense it will provide protection if the omp ever fails.

Otherwise it will not bestow magical longevity properties to engine.

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

The OMP injects oil directly into the rotor housing (or maybe somewhere else, I don't remember), so there is much less waste compared to premixing. However, the oil is not evenly distributed, so premixing may still help reduce wear and improve sealing (for better compression) even with an enabled OMP. Plus 2 cycle engine oil is better for lubricating the internals than motor oil and it burns cleaner.

As for me, I plan on switching to an oil tank to provide 2 stroke oil for the stock OMP (via the Rotary Aviation adaptor). I may also premix a tiny amount on top of that, whenever I remember / feel like it.

SpooledupRacing

I think if u had two fresh rebuilds the premix engin will last longer then the stock omp engine due to the fact of the excessive carbon buildup with the omp..

Dinnercoat

And I think that the moon is made out of cheese, whats your point?

You know what you do about excessive carbon buildup? Redline regularly, like the owners manual says.


ericgrau, there are two oil injectors, one for each housing and two injectors for the intake.

RotaMan99

Premixing will not clog the injectors or the fuel filter, its diluted to much.

I would also bet the premix or 2 stroke injected engine would last longer, in which case, premixing or 2 stroke injection would be great on a rebuilt.

But on a motor that already has 140K miles on it, why do people think switching NOW will make any difference?

Here we go again. Now I would believe you if you said, E-OMP. If you are refering to the mechanical omp, have you ever taken one apart and taken a good look at how it works? There is nothing in the OMP to go wrong. The Mech OMP is more reliable then the E-OMP. Swap it over.

The injected oil from the OMP does cover everything. Its not driping on one spot on the rotor. The oil atomizes in the intake charge and then gets spread over everything.

Premixing with the OMP operating is a waste of time. You are doing more harm then good. What good is injecting MORE oil then is needed? None.

NZConvertible

Have you ever heard of that actually happening? I highly doubt you have. The S4's OMP is extremely reliable and the S5's ECU simply won't let the engine get damaged if there's an OMP problem.

That's not why it's done and you're wrong about synthetic oil.

Do you realize that much of the carbon build-up comes from the fuel and the rich mixtures the car's run?

And how is the air line going to get clogged? Are you running without an air filter?

So stop thinking so much. If you think hard enough you can come up with a failure mode for every single part on the car, but that doesn't make it any more likely.

If you really want to extend the life of your engine, there won't ever be "filthy" oil in the engine.

Bypass in the filter is caused by leaving the filter on the engine for a stupidly long period of time. If you have filthy oil and a bypassing filter, premixing is not going to save you from your own stupidity.

RotaMan99

HAILERS

If the filtered air line gets clogged, the injectors will inject more oil, not less. That filtered air equalizes the air on both sides of the injector. If that does not happen, then the oil in the line gets sucked in big time into the rotor chamber.

Syonyk

Honest question - how do you tell if an engine has failed from lack of lubrication oil from a teardown? The rotors are generally covered in carbon, and on any higher milage engine, the housings are definitely worn before apex seal fragments go flying around. I'd imagine an engine with no lubrication would wear out the apex seals significantly faster, and they'd get worn enough to roll out, fragment, and damage things. If there's a way to tell why it failed (lack of lubrication vs just old age) from a teardown, I'm interested in knowing.

I based my decision to premix on comments I read from well regarded engine builders on the cleanliness of a premixed vs oil injected engine - that a 20k motor run with the engine oil system was fairly dirty inside (carbon buildup), and a 20k motor run on premix was still almost new looking inside. I was looking forward to reading WAYNE88N/A's report on his engine teardown, as he measured all the seals when he tore down his original engine and figured out the wear per 1000 miles, and was going to determine the wear per 1000 miles with premix, to see if it was any different. I haven't seen him around lately, though, and he never responded to the PM I sent a while back.

Also, the Mazda race teams premix (apparently richer than 50:1 in many cases). If that's not evidence that premixing is better for the engine, I don't know what is.

Is premixing in the gas better than the oil injection pump spitting 2-cycle oil? I don't know. However, it doesn't require any additional parts (other than a blockoff plate and oil injector bolts to plug the holes), and I can change the amount of oil injected as needed. If I know I'm going to be running the car hard on a tank of gas (autocross, and eventually track days), I add more oil. I've never forgotten to add it - it's just part of my fillup routine in that car. I've got a gallon of 2-cycle oil behind the passenger's seat, a funnel and bottle in a bin, and I'm good.

Will it help on a motor that already has large numbers of miles on it? *shrug* Maybe, maybe not. Will it help keep a freshly rebuilt motor clean? From what I've heard, yes. I'm planning to replace my exhaust bathtub with a header at some point here - I'll try to get some pictures of the rotors. They've got 25k miles of premix life on them.

-=Russ=-

RotaMan99

You may see engines fail from carbon build from the motor oil but not because the OMP or INJECTOR failed.

When I tore my engine apart from running premix for about 30K miles there was still a bunch of carbon built up but was well lubricated. 1 oz per gallon is a lot from what I saw.

I believe the same about 2 stroke on new engines. I just don't see the reason for doing it on old engines, even though I have been doing it for about 4 years on my old engine and only this year on my new to me engine.

SpooledupRacing

a couple things... I think if your car has over 130K (we will say 130K) then going to premix now prolly wont do much for longevity however my coupe I got at 72K I think going to premix will help extend its longevity..

my vert has 150k I wont pull the omp or premix on this car the damage that may be done is already done.


some cars are autos and dont pull to redline like the manual trans cars do..

not everyone who drives these cars pull to redline and the buyers of these cars when new prolly did not either ... think about it if u are drivng down a 25-35mph street hell u cant pull the redline in 1st without touching 35 or rolling past it ...

pulling the car to redline every so often will not remove all the carbon in the engine, plain and simple this will not cure that problem only delay the onset of effects from the engine oil burning in the crank case

premix or 2 cycle.... THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.. premix is 2 cycle that has been mixed with gas... as far as I know you cant buy premix in the store you buy 2 cycle and pour it into the tank (or some mix it then pour it into the tank)

2 cycle will not clogg the injectors or filter IF you buy TCW-3 2 cycle it is intended for FUEL INJECTION

ok I need to go to work lol

DEBATE ON!

TitaniumTT

TCW3 is not intended for fuel injection, but it can be used as such. It's been around the marine industry for a long LONG time. I was using it almost 20 years ago when there was no-such thing as FI. I believe it only has to do with the lubricating properties of the oil. Merc Marine offers 2 different versions of their 2-stroke oil. I have yet to get an answer as to which ones better or why they are different and if you asked 3 different people you'd probably get 4 different answers.

SpooledupRacing

the bottles I buy say TCW-3 fuel injector SAFE...

TehMonkay

iTrader: (-1)

Fuel injection has been around since at least 83, and that was 24 years ago.

Also, has anyone ever take apart an engine that was run high mileage with an omp? Ever notice the line going right down the middle of the rotor housings? I believe that is the oil injected by the housing oil injector, it sure does spread evenly doesn't it.

I also suppose we should start outfitting omps to our weed eaters now too?

When you're at 2900 miles, 100miles from an oil change, the oil is nearing the end of it's lifecycle, either by mileage, or it's total time that it's good for, as oil breakdown with age.

When you run premix it's always good oil going into the combustion chamber, because your gas is gonna' go bad before the oil does.

But it doesn't matter, arguing without any evidence of engine life with or without premix doesn't do any good. Unless we test it.

RotaMan99

I have and never seen that line. There are 2 injectors per rotor. The one in the intake would obveously be more atomized then the one on the rotor housing, and yes it does spread over everything. Not saying evenly. You think mazda would have incorperated the OMP system if it only lubricated the center of the Apex seals?

Who ever said about outfitting an OMP on an engine that never had one or that doesn't need one. How often are you mixing 2 stroke and gas for your weed wacker?

3000 miles is not the end of the oils life cycle. Thats BEFORE it. Again, use good oil filters and oil and don't worry.

you are also allowing the engine to inject more oil then it normally would see. 1oz per gallon is what is used at WOT. Much less then that is used during cruise or even idle. Have you seen how much oil flows out the OMP at idle? Not a whole lot. Mazda designed the OMP system to inject the required amount of oil for your daily use. Not racing.

I use 1/2oz per gallon.

We sure do have evidence. How many rotary engines you see running over 140-180K miles on the same engine with the OMP operational? I can't count them on my fingers and toes.

TitaniumTT

I don't remeber seeing a fuel injected o/b in 1983... do you? In fact, the 200 HP Merc O/B that I have now is from 1983 and ques what it had on it.... a variable rate oil injection system Quess what the brand new $15,000+ motors have on them?? A variable rate oil injection system

RotaMan99

Some people are just way to paranoid.