Why do FD's look down on FC's?
10-15-01, 10:34 AM
#51
i think on the forum that *most* people are color blind.
the ONE thing i noticed a while back is most of the 1st and 2nd gen owners are like more grassroots and do the work by themselves on their car.
the 3rd gen owners seem more like people that dont wanna or dont have the time to look at their cars. but not all of them!
nothing wrong wtih takin ur car somewhere, but us poor 2nd gen owners dont have that luxury and gotta get dirty...
scott
the ONE thing i noticed a while back is most of the 1st and 2nd gen owners are like more grassroots and do the work by themselves on their car.
the 3rd gen owners seem more like people that dont wanna or dont have the time to look at their cars. but not all of them!
nothing wrong wtih takin ur car somewhere, but us poor 2nd gen owners dont have that luxury and gotta get dirty...
scott
10-15-01, 11:30 AM
#52
I know what you mean. Sometimes it does seem that all FD owners couldn't give a **** about the FC.
However, my experience has been different. A lot of the FD owners here in Florida do give FCs a second look. There's a few that probably don't care about the FC, but a lot of them will take the time to look around and see what they have. The guy I hang out with the most in our club in Gainesville drives a 93 R1. He's really cool. He cares about all the gens.
Maybe it's a regional dependent thing. Who knows?
But, like a lot of people pointed out, FBs and FCs do seem to be more of a Grassroots type. Doing all their own work, maybe have more than one, couple look like crap because they're parts cars, etc. I think it's almost cost prohibitive to own more than one FD!
However, my experience has been different. A lot of the FD owners here in Florida do give FCs a second look. There's a few that probably don't care about the FC, but a lot of them will take the time to look around and see what they have. The guy I hang out with the most in our club in Gainesville drives a 93 R1. He's really cool. He cares about all the gens.
Maybe it's a regional dependent thing. Who knows?
But, like a lot of people pointed out, FBs and FCs do seem to be more of a Grassroots type. Doing all their own work, maybe have more than one, couple look like crap because they're parts cars, etc. I think it's almost cost prohibitive to own more than one FD!
10-15-01, 01:18 PM
#53
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I guess I can answer the snobby FD accusation.. when I drive the FD, I'm so tired of people staring at me, slowing down to line up, or staying behind me for some unknown reason, its so annoying. I try to be nice to everyone, but after a while when all the same dumb questions are asked everytime I get tired and start giving dumb answers back.. is that snobby? Probably.. I do acknowledge other RX-7 drivers and don't act that way to everyone unless they're in a riced out car..
But when I drive my TurboII, no one cares, no one looks, FD owners ignore me, I know, I had the same thing happen to me back when I had a NA and went to a RX-7 BBQ a few years ago, the only person who bothered to talk to me was another FC owner..
I guess I didn't really answer anyone's questions, I'm just rambling in agreement.
But when I drive my TurboII, no one cares, no one looks, FD owners ignore me, I know, I had the same thing happen to me back when I had a NA and went to a RX-7 BBQ a few years ago, the only person who bothered to talk to me was another FC owner..
I guess I didn't really answer anyone's questions, I'm just rambling in agreement.
10-15-01, 01:51 PM
#54
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Originally posted by 88and93
As an owner of a TII and a FD both purchased new, I can tell you the FD kicks the TII's butt in any way you care to measure (except trunk space). I love both cars and will keep both for many more years. I am not snobbish towards 1st and 2nd gen owners and in fact have given advice to many of their owners. I have ten years road racing experience and know what handling is, and you better believe the FC will never outhandle the FD. These are both serious sports cars which is why I bought them. I don't care what X amount of money will produce on a dyno for drag racing. FC owners should realize they have a nice handling car with enough power (stock) to be fun, but there are many new cars today that rival them performance wise. Ignore the snobs.
As an owner of a TII and a FD both purchased new, I can tell you the FD kicks the TII's butt in any way you care to measure (except trunk space). I love both cars and will keep both for many more years. I am not snobbish towards 1st and 2nd gen owners and in fact have given advice to many of their owners. I have ten years road racing experience and know what handling is, and you better believe the FC will never outhandle the FD. These are both serious sports cars which is why I bought them. I don't care what X amount of money will produce on a dyno for drag racing. FC owners should realize they have a nice handling car with enough power (stock) to be fun, but there are many new cars today that rival them performance wise. Ignore the snobs.
10-15-01, 03:48 PM
#55
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Originally posted by booosted
I am sure that many FC owners could argue with that. What have you done to the suspension on the TII? To think that a FC will never outhandle an FD is pretty bad. I know my TII with just coilovers and KYB AGX's will DEFINATLY keep up with a stock FD. The point I was trying to make was that for $4k you can buy most stock TII's. Then with the extra $10k you saved over buying a FD you could put into the car and KILL the FD in any department. It would outhandle and accelerate faster than the FD. Looks are debatable to the person. I like both.
I am sure that many FC owners could argue with that. What have you done to the suspension on the TII? To think that a FC will never outhandle an FD is pretty bad. I know my TII with just coilovers and KYB AGX's will DEFINATLY keep up with a stock FD. The point I was trying to make was that for $4k you can buy most stock TII's. Then with the extra $10k you saved over buying a FD you could put into the car and KILL the FD in any department. It would outhandle and accelerate faster than the FD. Looks are debatable to the person. I like both.
The suspension setup on the FD is simply superior to the FC. You can increase the spring rate, beef up the dampers, get thicker roll bars, but you can't get around inferior suspension geometry.
Of course, you always have to throw the human factor in there. That's always something we seem to forget about.
10-15-01, 04:27 PM
#56
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Re: Why do FD's look down on FC's?
Originally posted by booosted
Is it just me or do the third gen owners seem like there car is alot better than the 2nd gen.
Is it just me or do the third gen owners seem like there car is alot better than the 2nd gen.
There are some FD owners that are all into FCs and earlier, these are the true RX-7 fans. (IE people who actually used to OWN or admire FCs, FBs, etc.)
The rest of them are people who just want an FD because they're "so phat" or whatever, and only then do they start talking about "yeah RX-7s are the ****" "rotaries rule" blah blah blah, while they only care about like .5% of all of the rotary powered cars ever made. (Almost a million rotary cars before the RX-7... SEVERAL million SA's and FB's made... dunno how many FCs but it must be in the millions... only a few dozen thousand FD's ever made)
Personally I think FD's suck... they're ***-ugly and they didn't make them N/A, so they're too rare and too expensive to be any fun.
- PJ (also own an '87 GXL... and really really want an RX-4 or Cosmo)
10-15-01, 04:37 PM
#57
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I forgot to add...
Sometimes I'll see another RX-7 in the oncoming lane, and I'll do a little headlight wave to 'em if it's daylight. So far out of dozens of 1st-gens I've only gotten a couple waves back. Out of less than a dozen FCs I've never gotten ONE wave back. I've only seen one FD (red, had spoiler), it was going in the same direction as me on the turnpike, after he passed I did my little wave, and the dude immediately tapped his brakes a couple times.
So yeah, there are some cool FD owners out there... OTOH there are a few FC and 1st-gen people who either don't care (IE it's just a car to them) or they're looking down on me because my car's a rusty POS. (Eh, so what.) Whatever.
(I'm probably faster than them anyway. )
Sometimes I'll see another RX-7 in the oncoming lane, and I'll do a little headlight wave to 'em if it's daylight. So far out of dozens of 1st-gens I've only gotten a couple waves back. Out of less than a dozen FCs I've never gotten ONE wave back. I've only seen one FD (red, had spoiler), it was going in the same direction as me on the turnpike, after he passed I did my little wave, and the dude immediately tapped his brakes a couple times.
So yeah, there are some cool FD owners out there... OTOH there are a few FC and 1st-gen people who either don't care (IE it's just a car to them) or they're looking down on me because my car's a rusty POS. (Eh, so what.) Whatever.
(I'm probably faster than them anyway.
)
10-15-01, 05:08 PM
#58
I have both a 93 R1 and an 87 TII.
The FD has more potential than the FC for track and auto-xing, the FC is a much cheaper machine that you can have A LOT of fun for not much $$.
Right now the TII is running 13.9's and the FD is running 13.59. The FD has a DP and cat-back with the stock cat no other engine mods, the FC has a full exhaust, LW flywheel and about 250lbs weight reduction (no ac, cruise, spare, etc), price at this point is under $2K total for the FC!
Not much difference in 1/4 mile times right? The FD will absolutely hand my TII it's *** auto-xing. FD is wearing Eibachs and GAB R shocks and the FC has Eibachs, Illuminas and RB sway bars, both are running Kuhmo R-compound tires. The FD has much better suspension geometry, you can't mod an FC to have it. Drive an FD and you will see that they are different cars.
I don't look down on FC's or 1st gens, just make sure when you compare the cars you realize there is a difference. I know a guy with a 12 sec 1st gen (13BT), still can't beat me in my FD auto-xing, not even close. 1/4 is a different story though, he waxes my FD.
As far as FD guys not knowing what makes thier cars tick, many don't but many do. I've had 7 FDs, 5 FCs and 1 GSL-SE....
Jeff
The FD has more potential than the FC for track and auto-xing, the FC is a much cheaper machine that you can have A LOT of fun for not much $$.
Right now the TII is running 13.9's and the FD is running 13.59. The FD has a DP and cat-back with the stock cat no other engine mods, the FC has a full exhaust, LW flywheel and about 250lbs weight reduction (no ac, cruise, spare, etc), price at this point is under $2K total for the FC!
Not much difference in 1/4 mile times right? The FD will absolutely hand my TII it's *** auto-xing. FD is wearing Eibachs and GAB R shocks and the FC has Eibachs, Illuminas and RB sway bars, both are running Kuhmo R-compound tires. The FD has much better suspension geometry, you can't mod an FC to have it. Drive an FD and you will see that they are different cars.
I don't look down on FC's or 1st gens, just make sure when you compare the cars you realize there is a difference. I know a guy with a 12 sec 1st gen (13BT), still can't beat me in my FD auto-xing, not even close. 1/4 is a different story though, he waxes my FD.
As far as FD guys not knowing what makes thier cars tick, many don't but many do. I've had 7 FDs, 5 FCs and 1 GSL-SE....
Jeff
10-15-01, 05:52 PM
#59
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Originally posted by Mykl
but you can't get around inferior suspension geometry.
but you can't get around inferior suspension geometry.
Mike
10-15-01, 06:29 PM
#60
Only if you compare a full race FC set-up to a FD, and then the FC won't handle real world roads because it'll be so stiff. The FD has fully adjustable camber and caster front and rear. The double control arms give very good suspension geometry through the entire range of suspension travel. I got 4 alignments last year before I finally settled on something that worked for me in my FD.
The FC doesn't have any adjustments for camber front of rear. The FC front suspension requires using camber plates to get any camber out of it, even still it has more camber gain/loss during suspension travel. The FC rear suspension is also heavy and has poor geometry, lots of camber gain during acceleration. Using a Mazdatrix style camber link in the FC and adjusting the camber much makes the front diff mount smack the body during hard shifts. You can't tune in good suspension geometry, period. You can make it better than stock, but it just isn't the same as good geometry.
I still love my FC, they are just different cars. Ever wonder why FDs kicked *** at SCCA in SS for 7 yrs (C5 Vette took over last year)? The FC never really did well stock, or street prepared, spend lots of cash on FC suspension to make it handle as well as a FD and even then it won't do well when the roads get bumpy.
Jeff
The FC doesn't have any adjustments for camber front of rear. The FC front suspension requires using camber plates to get any camber out of it, even still it has more camber gain/loss during suspension travel. The FC rear suspension is also heavy and has poor geometry, lots of camber gain during acceleration. Using a Mazdatrix style camber link in the FC and adjusting the camber much makes the front diff mount smack the body during hard shifts. You can't tune in good suspension geometry, period. You can make it better than stock, but it just isn't the same as good geometry.
I still love my FC, they are just different cars. Ever wonder why FDs kicked *** at SCCA in SS for 7 yrs (C5 Vette took over last year)? The FC never really did well stock, or street prepared, spend lots of cash on FC suspension to make it handle as well as a FD and even then it won't do well when the roads get bumpy.
Jeff
10-15-01, 06:35 PM
#61
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Originally posted by stinkfist
Actually, Yes you can. Theres much more to settining up a suspension than bolt on shocks and swaybars.
Mike
Actually, Yes you can. Theres much more to settining up a suspension than bolt on shocks and swaybars.
Mike
And if you think about it, half of these "bolt-on" people stiffen up the suspension so much it barely moves, so geometry doesn't come into play as much as static alignment settings do! So they're pretty much throwing away their whole "advantage".
10-15-01, 06:38 PM
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Originally posted by stinkfist
Actually, Yes you can. Theres much more to settining up a suspension than bolt on shocks and swaybars.
Mike
Actually, Yes you can. Theres much more to settining up a suspension than bolt on shocks and swaybars.
Mike
No, you can not get past inferior suspension geometry.
This...
Front MacPherson struts, lower A arms, anit-roll bar; rear trailing arms
...will never perform as well as this is capable of...
Front independent, double-wishbones by unequal length upper and lower arms; Rear independent, double-wishbones by upper A-arms, lower transverse I-arms, transverse toe-control links, trailing links
The FC handles very well, but it pales in comparison to the FD. Of course, with a superior driver the FC could probably hustle around faster than an FD, but that has nothing to do with the machine.
Another thing, do you know why the FC has DTTS? It's nothing more than a band aid used to correct a basic design flaw. Mazda used it to help correct the understeer problems inherent to the semi-trailing arm rear suspension.
10-15-01, 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by peejay
Amen!!!
And if you think about it, half of these "bolt-on" people stiffen up the suspension so much it barely moves, so geometry doesn't come into play as much as static alignment settings do! So they're pretty much throwing away their whole "advantage".
Amen!!!
And if you think about it, half of these "bolt-on" people stiffen up the suspension so much it barely moves, so geometry doesn't come into play as much as static alignment settings do! So they're pretty much throwing away their whole "advantage".
10-15-01, 06:55 PM
#64
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Originally posted by turbojeff
The FC doesn't have any adjustments for camber front of rear. The FC front suspension requires using camber plates to get any camber out of it, even still it has more camber gain/loss during suspension travel. The FC rear suspension is also heavy and has poor geometry, lots of camber gain during acceleration. Using a Mazdatrix style camber link in the FC and adjusting the camber much makes the front diff mount smack the body during hard shifts. You can't tune in good suspension geometry, period. You can make it better than stock, but it just isn't the same as good geometry.
The FC doesn't have any adjustments for camber front of rear. The FC front suspension requires using camber plates to get any camber out of it, even still it has more camber gain/loss during suspension travel. The FC rear suspension is also heavy and has poor geometry, lots of camber gain during acceleration. Using a Mazdatrix style camber link in the FC and adjusting the camber much makes the front diff mount smack the body during hard shifts. You can't tune in good suspension geometry, period. You can make it better than stock, but it just isn't the same as good geometry.
FCs can launch harder at the dragstrip than my SA with its solid axle... 'nuff said.
10-15-01, 07:01 PM
#65
Old [Sch|F]ool
Originally posted by Mykl
Another thing, do you know why the FC has DTTS? It's nothing more than a band aid used to correct a basic design flaw. Mazda used it to help correct the understeer problems inherent to the semi-trailing arm rear suspension.
Another thing, do you know why the FC has DTTS? It's nothing more than a band aid used to correct a basic design flaw. Mazda used it to help correct the understeer problems inherent to the semi-trailing arm rear suspension.
They have strut front suspensions too...
Yes they have their special characteristics - power on understeer, lift throttle oversteer. It makes for a very entertaining car - very throttle-steerable. (Something I wish my SA had... it doesn't oversteer unless you get very stupid) Lift off - line tightens up. Power on - line widens. I used to do that all the time in my last strut front, trailing arm rear car... several times in the same corner! It's so fun... "Look, understeer... look, oversteer!" playing with the attitude w/the throttle.
10-15-01, 07:54 PM
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Originally posted by peejay
Don't tell BMW that... they've had trailing arm rear suspension for years and years, and they aren't exactly known for their understeer or poor handling.
They have strut front suspensions too...
Yes they have their special characteristics - power on understeer, lift throttle oversteer. It makes for a very entertaining car - very throttle-steerable. (Something I wish my SA had... it doesn't oversteer unless you get very stupid) Lift off - line tightens up. Power on - line widens. I used to do that all the time in my last strut front, trailing arm rear car... several times in the same corner! It's so fun... "Look, understeer... look, oversteer!" playing with the attitude w/the throttle.
Don't tell BMW that... they've had trailing arm rear suspension for years and years, and they aren't exactly known for their understeer or poor handling.
They have strut front suspensions too...
Yes they have their special characteristics - power on understeer, lift throttle oversteer. It makes for a very entertaining car - very throttle-steerable. (Something I wish my SA had... it doesn't oversteer unless you get very stupid) Lift off - line tightens up. Power on - line widens. I used to do that all the time in my last strut front, trailing arm rear car... several times in the same corner! It's so fun... "Look, understeer... look, oversteer!" playing with the attitude w/the throttle.
Although I'm not one to go strictly off of magazine articles, but it has been said that the mac strut suspension on the RSX isn't as potent performance wise as the old Integra.
But we're getting a bit off topic here. Fact is, the FD's suspension is far superior to that of the FC. The FC still handles very well, and is a blast to drive, but it isn't as good.
10-15-01, 07:56 PM
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Oh, and as far as BMW is concerned, I'm sure they've found a way to get around it without adding a gimmick like DTTS.
The Porsche 944 was able to get around that obstacle too, by refining the system. The 944 is quite a fun car to drive, and it handles every bit as good as the FC. With the same basic suspension setup, and no DTTS.
The Porsche 944 was able to get around that obstacle too, by refining the system. The 944 is quite a fun car to drive, and it handles every bit as good as the FC. With the same basic suspension setup, and no DTTS.
10-15-01, 09:18 PM
#68
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DTTS works in two stages... at lower loading the control arm moves, allowing for less toe-in on the outside wheel. At higher lateral forces the hub assembly moves, allowing for more toe-IN.
The first part is SOP for trailing arm suspensions. That's why they're so entertaining.. it's the built-in throttle steer. Accelerating neatly cancels out the side loading and applies some added toe in.
The second part was added by Mazda to make the system more foolproof for idiot drivers. It's like the rear wheels steering to the outside of a turn, which helps counteract oversteer. In a way this is a lot like when Mazda modified the rear geometry in the '84-85 models for increased roll understeer - it makes the car more idiotproof.
BMW didn't do this. Porsche didn't do this. They assume that the drivers are not idiots; that's why the cars are fun to drive.
Interestingly, kits are sold that disable the second phase of the "DTTS system". For people who don't like being treated like idiots.
- PJ (BTW - yes I still have the 18mm rear 'bar on the '80. )
The first part is SOP for trailing arm suspensions. That's why they're so entertaining.. it's the built-in throttle steer. Accelerating neatly cancels out the side loading and applies some added toe in.
The second part was added by Mazda to make the system more foolproof for idiot drivers. It's like the rear wheels steering to the outside of a turn, which helps counteract oversteer. In a way this is a lot like when Mazda modified the rear geometry in the '84-85 models for increased roll understeer - it makes the car more idiotproof.
BMW didn't do this. Porsche didn't do this. They assume that the drivers are not idiots; that's why the cars are fun to drive.
Interestingly, kits are sold that disable the second phase of the "DTTS system". For people who don't like being treated like idiots.
- PJ (BTW - yes I still have the 18mm rear 'bar on the '80.
)
10-15-01, 11:34 PM
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Originally posted by peejay
DTTS works in two stages... at lower loading the control arm moves, allowing for less toe-in on the outside wheel. At higher lateral forces the hub assembly moves, allowing for more toe-IN.
The first part is SOP for trailing arm suspensions. That's why they're so entertaining.. it's the built-in throttle steer. Accelerating neatly cancels out the side loading and applies some added toe in.
The second part was added by Mazda to make the system more foolproof for idiot drivers. It's like the rear wheels steering to the outside of a turn, which helps counteract oversteer. In a way this is a lot like when Mazda modified the rear geometry in the '84-85 models for increased roll understeer - it makes the car more idiotproof.
BMW didn't do this. Porsche didn't do this. They assume that the drivers are not idiots; that's why the cars are fun to drive.
Interestingly, kits are sold that disable the second phase of the "DTTS system". For people who don't like being treated like idiots.
- PJ (BTW - yes I still have the 18mm rear 'bar on the '80. )
DTTS works in two stages... at lower loading the control arm moves, allowing for less toe-in on the outside wheel. At higher lateral forces the hub assembly moves, allowing for more toe-IN.
The first part is SOP for trailing arm suspensions. That's why they're so entertaining.. it's the built-in throttle steer. Accelerating neatly cancels out the side loading and applies some added toe in.
The second part was added by Mazda to make the system more foolproof for idiot drivers. It's like the rear wheels steering to the outside of a turn, which helps counteract oversteer. In a way this is a lot like when Mazda modified the rear geometry in the '84-85 models for increased roll understeer - it makes the car more idiotproof.
BMW didn't do this. Porsche didn't do this. They assume that the drivers are not idiots; that's why the cars are fun to drive.
Interestingly, kits are sold that disable the second phase of the "DTTS system". For people who don't like being treated like idiots.
- PJ (BTW - yes I still have the 18mm rear 'bar on the '80.
)
10-16-01, 01:02 AM
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Yo,
Mykl, I hear you. Even though I want to replace my DTSS bushings, I /know/ they've saved my *** before. *grin* My only problem is: 40 buck part, 5 times that to have 'em stuck in. *chuckle*
KS
1989 GTUs "Homogolation Special"
Mykl, I hear you. Even though I want to replace my DTSS bushings, I /know/ they've saved my *** before. *grin* My only problem is: 40 buck part, 5 times that to have 'em stuck in. *chuckle*
KS
1989 GTUs "Homogolation Special"
10-16-01, 02:44 AM
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Suspension? I think some of you are getting off track. I myself am not disallusioned about my car. I know it's a 2nd gen. It was desigined almost twenty years ago. But the point most of you are missing is 3rd gens are in a class all by themselves. Why compare yourself to something else? Are you that insecure that you feel the need to compare your dated 2nd gen to a far superior 3rd gen? I myself love my car, and enjoy its own uniqe charicteristics. I also plan on buying a 3rd gen, If I have to explain why, then I'm on the wrong board.
10-16-01, 03:37 AM
#74
Wow, this is one long thread!
Where I live (Houston,TX) most people around here that own 1st and 2nd Gens are not enthusiasts. I do give the thumbs up to 7's that are somewhat modified (i.e. exhaust). I almost always get a smile or a wave back. This includes 3rd Gen owners. Alot of times I'll be driving to work on the tollway and an FD will pull up next to me, look at my car, smile then take off. That's when I pull up next to them, smile, blow-off, then shoot flames in front of them in my lane. Every time I drive on this one particular road by my house, I always seem to run into Marcus Williams and his bad-*** FD. He always chunks the deuce before flying away from me. I love FD's, but there is one major reason why I chose not to buy one. I love the convertible models! You can't buy a convertible FD now can you?
To T04Eneedy: That guy that runs Z motorsports obviously sounds like a bitch, and I was going to consider checking them out. I think I'll go in there to see what happens, and I will express my 2 cents if he does give me the "I don't give a ****" attitude. Try Carboy Motorsports.
All in all, a rotary is a rotary. We all love our cars. Be it 1st, 2nd or 3rd gen, we all have the passion for rotaries. If we wanted a daily commuter we'd buy a toyota camry. We've all got our reasons for owning an RX-7. One thing is for sure- We are enthusiasts. If we weren't we wouldn't be on this DAMN FORUM!
Where I live (Houston,TX) most people around here that own 1st and 2nd Gens are not enthusiasts. I do give the thumbs up to 7's that are somewhat modified (i.e. exhaust). I almost always get a smile or a wave back. This includes 3rd Gen owners. Alot of times I'll be driving to work on the tollway and an FD will pull up next to me, look at my car, smile then take off. That's when I pull up next to them, smile, blow-off, then shoot flames in front of them in my lane. Every time I drive on this one particular road by my house, I always seem to run into Marcus Williams and his bad-*** FD. He always chunks the deuce before flying away from me. I love FD's, but there is one major reason why I chose not to buy one. I love the convertible models! You can't buy a convertible FD now can you?
To T04Eneedy: That guy that runs Z motorsports obviously sounds like a bitch, and I was going to consider checking them out. I think I'll go in there to see what happens, and I will express my 2 cents if he does give me the "I don't give a ****" attitude. Try Carboy Motorsports.
All in all, a rotary is a rotary. We all love our cars. Be it 1st, 2nd or 3rd gen, we all have the passion for rotaries. If we wanted a daily commuter we'd buy a toyota camry. We've all got our reasons for owning an RX-7. One thing is for sure- We are enthusiasts. If we weren't we wouldn't be on this DAMN FORUM!
lock this thread and lets kick some ***