What Turbo is right for me??
08-31-09 | 08:13 PM
#26
Yeah, but who wants an LS1? 
If I wanted an LS1 I'd put it in something like a Fox body mustang to **** people off at shows. Then again, a 20B in the same chassis with one of those independent suspension kits would be sweet.
I just wonder how many 13Bs a beginner has to go through to make 600RWHP?
If I wanted an LS1 I'd put it in something like a Fox body mustang to **** people off at shows. Then again, a 20B in the same chassis with one of those independent suspension kits would be sweet.I just wonder how many 13Bs a beginner has to go through to make 600RWHP?
08-31-09 | 09:38 PM
#27
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As for drive train, stock s5 t2 tranny, you go through them easily at this power. Rear end is 4:33's with drive shaft shop axles. As for 20b being cheaper, I have to disagree, the problem with 20b is torque, you'll go through drivetrain faster than you do on a 13b but really at 600+ you go through everything that why alot of guys go with liberties and gforces and built rear ends.
09-02-09 | 12:49 AM
#28
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**** it. I'll throw some stuff out here.
1000/1680 injectors with an adjustable FPR, with over 40 psi base pressure. I'm a firm believer that dual fuel pumps should only be used when necessary, but I think here it's going to be necessary or at least very helpful. You might want to do the parallel fuel rail plumbing mod as well. Otherwise you'll have to use one of the really high flowing single pumps like the Bosch -044.
Then consider the GT4202R, but see if you can go with the T4 frame instead of the T6 to keep the spool decent. Get an FMIC if you have already. You'll probably want a divided long runner stainless manifold and 60mm wastegate, or dual 44's. You'll need a pretty good size FMIC core (consider one made by Garrett, not an ebay core for that power level) and I bet at least 2.75" intercooler piping with all the high quality clamps and couplers. Vibrant performance makes good stuff.
You'll need at least 25psi or so for this, so either have race fuel or a solid methanol injection setup. Aquamist is common. Ignition mods... well this is debateable. A lot of people have had really good luck with factory FC ignition and HKS twin power (myself included). FD owners swap in FC coils and make over 500 with them a lot. Other people would tell you to ditch the entire ignition system and go with something else. I like the stock BUR9EQ plugs and I think they're great for over 400 to the wheels, but at this point you'll probably want the Greddy race plugs.
For driveability and street manners, I recommend you keep a quieter dual exhaust (like the 3" RB) and recirculate the wastegate. Keep the BAC valve, fast idle system, and dashpot. Do not use an unsprung clutch.
Oh and get a damn good tuner who will do a lot of street driving with you. You'll want a high end wideband preferably with an NTK sensor and dual EGT probes for each exhaust manifold runner.
That's all gotta be at least $10k there. The turbo and the fuel system will be close to 4 or 5 grand alone. Manifold and wastegate(s) will be 2 grand at least. Tuning, gauges, and engine management will probably be $3k or more. It just keeps adding up. And I'm assuming you're doing all the labor for everything except tuning and exhaust/turbo manifold fabrication.
1000/1680 injectors with an adjustable FPR, with over 40 psi base pressure. I'm a firm believer that dual fuel pumps should only be used when necessary, but I think here it's going to be necessary or at least very helpful. You might want to do the parallel fuel rail plumbing mod as well. Otherwise you'll have to use one of the really high flowing single pumps like the Bosch -044.
Then consider the GT4202R, but see if you can go with the T4 frame instead of the T6 to keep the spool decent. Get an FMIC if you have already. You'll probably want a divided long runner stainless manifold and 60mm wastegate, or dual 44's. You'll need a pretty good size FMIC core (consider one made by Garrett, not an ebay core for that power level) and I bet at least 2.75" intercooler piping with all the high quality clamps and couplers. Vibrant performance makes good stuff.
You'll need at least 25psi or so for this, so either have race fuel or a solid methanol injection setup. Aquamist is common. Ignition mods... well this is debateable. A lot of people have had really good luck with factory FC ignition and HKS twin power (myself included). FD owners swap in FC coils and make over 500 with them a lot. Other people would tell you to ditch the entire ignition system and go with something else. I like the stock BUR9EQ plugs and I think they're great for over 400 to the wheels, but at this point you'll probably want the Greddy race plugs.
For driveability and street manners, I recommend you keep a quieter dual exhaust (like the 3" RB) and recirculate the wastegate. Keep the BAC valve, fast idle system, and dashpot. Do not use an unsprung clutch.
Oh and get a damn good tuner who will do a lot of street driving with you. You'll want a high end wideband preferably with an NTK sensor and dual EGT probes for each exhaust manifold runner.
That's all gotta be at least $10k there. The turbo and the fuel system will be close to 4 or 5 grand alone. Manifold and wastegate(s) will be 2 grand at least. Tuning, gauges, and engine management will probably be $3k or more. It just keeps adding up. And I'm assuming you're doing all the labor for everything except tuning and exhaust/turbo manifold fabrication.
Thanks alot for your input really helpfull
I was actaully referring to the GT4294r 1.01a/r(turbine) with a t4 flange, i visited mikes turbo yesterday and i couldnt believe the price difference with the gt4294r and non ball bearing gt4294, $1800 for the ball and 800$ for the none ball bearing, thats $1000 dollars i can spend somewhere else. but will there be such a noticible difference between the two?? the guy told me there shouldnt be much at all since our rotarys are amazing when it comes to that, but i still wonder.I already got a 3inch dp to a magnaflow resonator(stright through) then split to two RB mufflers, it purrs on idle and screams when you punch it.
i got the wideband also, already running the BUR9EQ on leading and trailing, got the fmic with the vibrant performance couplers and tbolt clamps, Also i get the tunning for free
09-02-09 | 12:54 AM
#29
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The car drives fine, I'm running 1600x4 right now and since adding the AI I could drop the primaries down to 1000's since there is alot more fuel with the AI. Right now its 500 rwhp @ 18psi on pump with AI and 640 @24 with pump + 20% Q116. Both tunes are pretty stupid on the street, there is no way to harness the power without drag radials. I drive the car on the weekends for fun, occasionally to work and beat the **** out of it at the track every chance I get. Keep in mind the engine was built to be abused doweled, and clearanced. I've yet to do a full race gas tune with the AI but should be somewhere around 700 to the wheels.
As for drive train, stock s5 t2 tranny, you go through them easily at this power. Rear end is 4:33's with drive shaft shop axles. As for 20b being cheaper, I have to disagree, the problem with 20b is torque, you'll go through drivetrain faster than you do on a 13b but really at 600+ you go through everything that why alot of guys go with liberties and gforces and built rear ends.
As for drive train, stock s5 t2 tranny, you go through them easily at this power. Rear end is 4:33's with drive shaft shop axles. As for 20b being cheaper, I have to disagree, the problem with 20b is torque, you'll go through drivetrain faster than you do on a 13b but really at 600+ you go through everything that why alot of guys go with liberties and gforces and built rear ends.
i was also planning on running 100% methanol injection using the AEM kit, what do you think would be a safe amount of boost to run with this 80/20 setup
09-02-09 | 11:42 PM
#30
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,093
Likes: 122
From: Twin Cities, MN
Thanks alot for your input really helpfull I was actaully referring to the GT4294r 1.01a/r(turbine) with a t4 flange, i visited mikes turbo yesterday and i couldnt believe the price difference with the gt4294r and non ball bearing gt4294, $1800 for the ball and 800$ for the none ball bearing, thats $1000 dollars i can spend somewhere else. but will there be such a noticible difference between the two?? the guy told me there shouldnt be much at all since our rotarys are amazing when it comes to that, but i still wonder.
I already got a 3inch dp to a magnaflow resonator(stright through) then split to two RB mufflers, it purrs on idle and screams when you punch it. i got the wideband also, already running the BUR9EQ on leading and trailing, got the fmic with the vibrant performance couplers and tbolt clamps, Also i get the tunning for free
I was actaully referring to the GT4294r 1.01a/r(turbine) with a t4 flange, i visited mikes turbo yesterday and i couldnt believe the price difference with the gt4294r and non ball bearing gt4294, $1800 for the ball and 800$ for the none ball bearing, thats $1000 dollars i can spend somewhere else. but will there be such a noticible difference between the two?? the guy told me there shouldnt be much at all since our rotarys are amazing when it comes to that, but i still wonder.I already got a 3inch dp to a magnaflow resonator(stright through) then split to two RB mufflers, it purrs on idle and screams when you punch it.
i got the wideband also, already running the BUR9EQ on leading and trailing, got the fmic with the vibrant performance couplers and tbolt clamps, Also i get the tunning for free
09-03-09 | 11:21 AM
#31
09-03-09 | 01:18 PM
#32
You can do a large diameter downpipe and midpipe to a smaller (quieter) rear section and it will still really help spool and not be too restrictive up top.
I had a 3.5" JIC Spec 90 turbo back system with just one muffler- LOUD. I do have an open vented external wastegate that doesn't help either.
The nice officer that pulled me over told me that if I was going to drive like an a$$hole on the streets I shouldn't have an obviously illegal exhaust- and he let me go!
I immediatately intalled a Racing Beat RevII 3" exhaust. It killed my low end power and made me spool later though didn't feel too bad up top.
So I used the long downpipe from the Spec 90 to the RB Y pipe/ mufflers and spool was almost back to where it had been with the full 3.5" turbo back and didn't feel too bad up top.
You have to REALLY be pushing it to be running full boost with the external wastegate open- especially if you are running high boost on a big laggy turbo.
I had a 3.5" JIC Spec 90 turbo back system with just one muffler- LOUD. I do have an open vented external wastegate that doesn't help either.
The nice officer that pulled me over told me that if I was going to drive like an a$$hole on the streets I shouldn't have an obviously illegal exhaust- and he let me go!
I immediatately intalled a Racing Beat RevII 3" exhaust. It killed my low end power and made me spool later though didn't feel too bad up top.
So I used the long downpipe from the Spec 90 to the RB Y pipe/ mufflers and spool was almost back to where it had been with the full 3.5" turbo back and didn't feel too bad up top.
You have to REALLY be pushing it to be running full boost with the external wastegate open- especially if you are running high boost on a big laggy turbo.
09-03-09 | 03:36 PM
#33
600 whp just seems like you are really pushing a 13b pretty damn hard. Guys I have met that run on average 500whp tear their engines down at least once a year, that's just if nothing goes wrong.
I went with a 20b because it is plain and simple a better engine. It spools a big turbo quicker, has more torque, doesn't have to be pushed as hard to make high power numbers. It may be more expensive but all in all I think I'm going to end up saving money (considering rebuilds).
As far as the ls1 option goes, I think that is my next project after the 20b is done, a nice stock 325hp ls1 that starts every time with a 6 speed double overdrive transmission getting nearly 30mpg that doesn't destroy itself every time it detonates.
Personally I think you should build up the 13b, it wont be cheap and that quote of $10k is probably right on target if you do it nice and do it right. Make sure to use an s5 rear iron, upgrade to larger studs and make sure you tune is PERFECT.
Now I have also heard of even cheaper ways to build this sort of thing, some guys use some huge volvo turbo which may have an integrated wastegate that would save some money for sure. Building a megasquirt could save you nearly $1000 if you are willing to figure it out. Use a bosch 044 fuel pump and stay away from stainless lines and AN fittings that could save you up to $500 right there. Use stock fuel rails routed in parallel. Just run a large, loud, shitty exhaust which will save you a bunch of money too.
I went with a 20b because it is plain and simple a better engine. It spools a big turbo quicker, has more torque, doesn't have to be pushed as hard to make high power numbers. It may be more expensive but all in all I think I'm going to end up saving money (considering rebuilds).
As far as the ls1 option goes, I think that is my next project after the 20b is done, a nice stock 325hp ls1 that starts every time with a 6 speed double overdrive transmission getting nearly 30mpg that doesn't destroy itself every time it detonates.
Personally I think you should build up the 13b, it wont be cheap and that quote of $10k is probably right on target if you do it nice and do it right. Make sure to use an s5 rear iron, upgrade to larger studs and make sure you tune is PERFECT.
Now I have also heard of even cheaper ways to build this sort of thing, some guys use some huge volvo turbo which may have an integrated wastegate that would save some money for sure. Building a megasquirt could save you nearly $1000 if you are willing to figure it out. Use a bosch 044 fuel pump and stay away from stainless lines and AN fittings that could save you up to $500 right there. Use stock fuel rails routed in parallel. Just run a large, loud, shitty exhaust which will save you a bunch of money too.
09-04-09 | 01:16 PM
#34
A word of caution from my own blown engine experience concerning the Bosch
'044!
If you do use the Bosch '044 pump and stock fuel line and filter with rubber lines there will be a large pressure drop, but the '044 performs awsome under pressure and will maintain pressure and flow.
So what is the problem? The pressure at the pump outlet will be VERY high so make sure you have good connections here that will not fail at high pressure.
I did an '044 pump in tank and used the rubber line between the pump and the fuel tank outlet on the cover plate- the rubber line blew out right at the top where the hose clamp was putting pressure on the rubber line and took out the engine in its first 5 miles of life.
I put in an aftermarket filter with lower pressure drop and -an fittings from hardlines.
'044!
If you do use the Bosch '044 pump and stock fuel line and filter with rubber lines there will be a large pressure drop, but the '044 performs awsome under pressure and will maintain pressure and flow.
So what is the problem? The pressure at the pump outlet will be VERY high so make sure you have good connections here that will not fail at high pressure.
I did an '044 pump in tank and used the rubber line between the pump and the fuel tank outlet on the cover plate- the rubber line blew out right at the top where the hose clamp was putting pressure on the rubber line and took out the engine in its first 5 miles of life.
I put in an aftermarket filter with lower pressure drop and -an fittings from hardlines.
09-04-09 | 01:52 PM
#35
A word of caution from my own blown engine experience concerning the Bosch
'044!
If you do use the Bosch '044 pump and stock fuel line and filter with rubber lines there will be a large pressure drop, but the '044 performs awsome under pressure and will maintain pressure and flow.
So what is the problem? The pressure at the pump outlet will be VERY high so make sure you have good connections here that will not fail at high pressure.
I did an '044 pump in tank and used the rubber line between the pump and the fuel tank outlet on the cover plate- the rubber line blew out right at the top where the hose clamp was putting pressure on the rubber line and took out the engine in its first 5 miles of life.
I put in an aftermarket filter with lower pressure drop and -an fittings from hardlines.
'044!
If you do use the Bosch '044 pump and stock fuel line and filter with rubber lines there will be a large pressure drop, but the '044 performs awsome under pressure and will maintain pressure and flow.
So what is the problem? The pressure at the pump outlet will be VERY high so make sure you have good connections here that will not fail at high pressure.
I did an '044 pump in tank and used the rubber line between the pump and the fuel tank outlet on the cover plate- the rubber line blew out right at the top where the hose clamp was putting pressure on the rubber line and took out the engine in its first 5 miles of life.
I put in an aftermarket filter with lower pressure drop and -an fittings from hardlines.
09-04-09 | 03:22 PM
#36
Since mine blew in the first 5 miles that probably WOULD have exposed that weak link.
But still, there the possibility that it would be fine for quite a while but over time the pressure inflating the hose and the vibration of the pump would cause the clamp to cut into the hose and cause the burst.
Better to go with hard fittings/lines.
From pump to fuel filter inlet wouldn't cost that much and it is the high pressure area accounting for the pressure drop.
Not saying you MUST go gonzo with braided lines/-an fittings...
But still, there the possibility that it would be fine for quite a while but over time the pressure inflating the hose and the vibration of the pump would cause the clamp to cut into the hose and cause the burst.
Better to go with hard fittings/lines.
From pump to fuel filter inlet wouldn't cost that much and it is the high pressure area accounting for the pressure drop.
Not saying you MUST go gonzo with braided lines/-an fittings...
09-05-09 | 10:36 PM
#37
Sounds like you want a 1j swap which is now pretty common for fc's down here in Sfl. Personally not a fan of the aberration but it does fit/work and I have to admit 1js and 2js are almost indestructible.
However, if you plan on sticking it out with the 13b I would suggest a T66 or T70 you will not get your 600 at the wheels but I am sure you will be more than happy. Hot side of .84, .96, or 1.00 tangential; p trim or q trim
However, if you plan on sticking it out with the 13b I would suggest a T66 or T70 you will not get your 600 at the wheels but I am sure you will be more than happy. Hot side of .84, .96, or 1.00 tangential; p trim or q trim
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