what does it take to push 10 grand redline
#51
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Originally Posted by Kyrasis6
If you put in the cost for all the new seals I'll need from Atkins I'll have right at about 2k into the motor with used TII rotor housings, rx-8 eshaft and stationary gears. .
Steel apex seals chatter like mad above 8500.
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Originally Posted by Black91n/a
If you can do the actual engine work inside in a clean room, you don't want to get bits of dust and dirt in the bearings. If you can't then I wouldn't be rebuilding it if I were you, because it probably won't last.
well i'm sure i can do it in my parents living room but i cant have it sittin there for weeks. we are southern rednecks but we live in a more city like place an my parents are kinda gettin into this city thing
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Originally Posted by scathcart
You'll either need carbon (so no power adders) or ceramic apex seals.
Steel apex seals chatter like mad above 8500.
Steel apex seals chatter like mad above 8500.
the apex seals in my car were changed about 10 to 15 thousand miles ago(trust me i started whinin when i learned this)so i thought i could just reuse them
#54
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Originally Posted by gus5891
the apex seals in my car were changed about 10 to 15 thousand miles ago(trust me i started whinin when i learned this)so i thought i could just reuse them
If they are steel, keep it under 8500 or you housings will wear like mad due to seal chatter.
#55
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Originally Posted by gus5891
ok well the s5 intake is already on my s4. how long does the average rebuild take? i'm probaly goin to be doin this in a car port(just switchin the internals for now) an knowin my dad he will start complainin if it aint out of his car port in less than a week. i know times vary greatly dependin on how much time i have but whats the average rebuid time?mainly wonderin if its possible to be a weekend thing
Using stock intake manfiolds for above 8K is a waste of time.
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Originally Posted by scathcart
To clearance and build a 9000+ rpm motor usually takes me about 40-50 hours.
Using stock intake manfiolds for above 8K is a waste of time.
Using stock intake manfiolds for above 8K is a waste of time.
what are you suggesting for intake manifolds then
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yeah well i'm young an learnin how to do this stuff. i'm pretty good with piston cars but as i've learned everything i know about piston cars i can throw away with a rotary car. just gotta start over an learn how to work on these. not to sound cheap but money being a issue what would be said for the condition of the gaskets being they only have a few thousand miles on them would i need to change all of them or are some of them reuseable. i really aint got the funds to go all out altho i think i'm gonna have to
#59
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I think if this is your first engine build, and money is a problem, keep it under 8K.
High revving motors are for competition where, simply, revs are required to make the power.
If you're just building a cheap engine for you to tear it up on at the drag strip, build a street-ported engine and throw a couple hundred horsepower worth of nitrous at it.
Faster. Cheaper. Easier.
High revving motors are for competition where, simply, revs are required to make the power.
If you're just building a cheap engine for you to tear it up on at the drag strip, build a street-ported engine and throw a couple hundred horsepower worth of nitrous at it.
Faster. Cheaper. Easier.
#61
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Originally Posted by gus5891
i know enough to know nitrous can blow a motor. i dont want to cook it that fast.
Nitrous can kill a motor.
So can very high revs.
I've pumped over 350 hp worth of nitrous through a rotary, that had much less mods than are required for a 10K rpm engine.
Really, you're never going to build any successful motor. You're a kid who is day dreaming about building some high-screaming engine for no point. You can't afford to build a 10K rpm motor, nor do you have the skills, so stop wasting everyone's time with your fantasies.
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dude relax a little i'm not just tryin to take up everybodys time what i'm tryin to do is learn from what yall tell me. an from what i have gathered already is that i dont need a high rpm car. my dad is the one who suggested that high of rpms so i came on here to ask what i would need to do that. what i learned is i dont need that kind of rpms i just need to fix it right an run it right.an the fact that you tell me i'm not goin to build a successful motor gives me all the more reason to prove you wrong.O an the skills to rebuild this engine everybody had to start learnin somewhere
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if you had acces to a: lots of money. b: a full shop, & c: had a clue. you'd know that you'd get waaay more power, and spend less money, doing a 20B na project rather then some high revving motor. For some reason ricers have chosen this as the staple for making power, Just because they heard from some other kid, who heard about it, in a japanese magazine. Yes it can be done, but right now, not by you. If you need to ask .5 of the questions...you're out of your league. There are several books you can purchase and read about. Some a little more technical than others, but I suggest you start reading, rather just have a bunch of answers dropped on you lap. Best of luck, and remember you have to start somewhere.
#64
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Originally Posted by fastrotaries
if you had acces to a: lots of money. b: a full shop, & c: had a clue. you'd know that you'd get waaay more power, and spend less money, doing a 20B na project rather then some high revving motor. For some reason ricers have chosen this as the staple for making power, Just because they heard from some other kid, who heard about it, in a japanese magazine. Yes it can be done, but right now, not by you. If you need to ask .5 of the questions...you're out of your league. There are several books you can purchase and read about. Some a little more technical than others, but I suggest you start reading, rather just have a bunch of answers dropped on you lap. Best of luck, and remember you have to start somewhere.
+1 for high revving 20b
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Originally Posted by RETed
The primary reasons for the higher redline is the lighter rotors and closer tolerance machining of parts in the later model FC's...
-Ted
-Ted
It is by far the highest quality OEM part I have ever measured.
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You can blow just about any engine quickly if you dont' know what your doing and not taking the right precautions you can do just as much damage with turbo as you can with nitrous the same goes for overrevving. If you don't have the engine setup for what you are doing it isn't going to hold together regardless of what it is.
There are a lot of things to consider about apex seal chatter, just not the material of the apex seal. Surface finish of the rotor housing, hardness of the seals, clearances, weight, rpm, the spring rate of the apex seal springs, surface finish of the apex seals themselves, etc.... I would imagine an engine with an apex seal clearance of .001" would have a lot less chatter and hold together at a much higher rpm than one running the same speeds with .002" clearance.
There are a lot of things to consider about apex seal chatter, just not the material of the apex seal. Surface finish of the rotor housing, hardness of the seals, clearances, weight, rpm, the spring rate of the apex seal springs, surface finish of the apex seals themselves, etc.... I would imagine an engine with an apex seal clearance of .001" would have a lot less chatter and hold together at a much higher rpm than one running the same speeds with .002" clearance.
#71
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To answer poster's question:
On a race car: mods given by others, bridge/peripheral port (peripheral is better, costs more). Car must spend all its time around redline to show any improvement.
In a fantasy world: valves that close the peripheral port and open the stock port at low to middle rpms. The auxillary ports would handle the "middle" rpms (~4k-7k).
On a street car: Don't bother, for reasons given by others. Get a VDI intake, full performance exhaust (Racing Beat is deservedly popular), cone filter, cold air box around the cone filter. Then get it street ported. Stick in the S5 rotors for an 8000rpm redline, or get what is necessary for the highest useful redline on a street port.
Which leads to my own question:
What are the "oil mods" that need to be done to raise redline? At what rpm is the power peak on stock porting? At roughly what rpm does power drop off? At what rpm is the power peak on street porting? At roughly what rpm does power drop off?
Carbon seals don't last nearly as long as steel ones, btw. So you/I may hit a wall at 8500rpm unless you don't mind frequent rebuilds to replace the apex seals. That's assuming the powerband on a street port even reaches 8500rpm.
On a race car: mods given by others, bridge/peripheral port (peripheral is better, costs more). Car must spend all its time around redline to show any improvement.
In a fantasy world: valves that close the peripheral port and open the stock port at low to middle rpms. The auxillary ports would handle the "middle" rpms (~4k-7k).
On a street car: Don't bother, for reasons given by others. Get a VDI intake, full performance exhaust (Racing Beat is deservedly popular), cone filter, cold air box around the cone filter. Then get it street ported. Stick in the S5 rotors for an 8000rpm redline, or get what is necessary for the highest useful redline on a street port.
Which leads to my own question:
What are the "oil mods" that need to be done to raise redline? At what rpm is the power peak on stock porting? At roughly what rpm does power drop off? At what rpm is the power peak on street porting? At roughly what rpm does power drop off?
Carbon seals don't last nearly as long as steel ones, btw. So you/I may hit a wall at 8500rpm unless you don't mind frequent rebuilds to replace the apex seals. That's assuming the powerband on a street port even reaches 8500rpm.
Last edited by ericgrau; 11-19-06 at 04:29 PM.
#73
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You should be able to look in the dyno section and get some comparisons. Kahren has a really good post in there with a pretty heavily modified NA engine.
Here is the link: Kahren: TII NA Build 186 hp
Looks like power on that build fell off around 6,800-7,500 rpm. He says in the post that the engine was initially going to be built for a turbo but decided to stay NA for the moment which was how the car was dynoed.
Here is the link: Kahren: TII NA Build 186 hp
owner: Fritz
relevant mods:
haltech e6x
s5 tII rotors
4 port turbo motor
stage 1 street port (turbo)
non resonated midpipe 2.5"
unknown catback (that i think the mufflers are startign to blow on)
racing beat header and stock header
relevant mods:
haltech e6x
s5 tII rotors
4 port turbo motor
stage 1 street port (turbo)
non resonated midpipe 2.5"
unknown catback (that i think the mufflers are startign to blow on)
racing beat header and stock header
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Originally Posted by Kyrasis6
You should be able to look in the dyno section and get some comparisons. Kahren has a really good post in there with a pretty heavily modified NA engine.
Here is the link: Kahren: TII NA Build 186 hp
Looks like power on that build fell off around 6,800-7,500 rpm. He says in the post that the engine was initially going to be built for a turbo but decided to stay NA for the moment which was how the car was dynoed.
Here is the link: Kahren: TII NA Build 186 hp
Looks like power on that build fell off around 6,800-7,500 rpm. He says in the post that the engine was initially going to be built for a turbo but decided to stay NA for the moment which was how the car was dynoed.
that still looks like pretty good hp an torque to me though
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