SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Probably because they use the damn 13B in their airplanes. You people and your blame RA **** is getting old quick. There's nothing wrong with the damn seals, he pinched the damn thing and that's why it doesn't work, end of story!

jhammons01

^^ ouch. try decaf.

There can be a ton of reasons why the RA stuff has different 'properties' than the Mazda parts. All I know is that Mazda has a lot more money to through at Product development that RA does. The Mazdatrix kit comes with mazda stuff in it. If RA has some quirks they should put a bulletin in with the parts. just cause its a little tighter does not mean that it is not good. The mechanic putting the parts in needs to know about it and how to overcome the quirks.......What???? Only ASE certifieds should use the parts??? Then they shouldn't seel them to the public.

Not quite the end of the story and if you would call Bruce Torrintine like I did you may get the whole story. Again (B4 you start typing) different properties do not equal bad.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Nobody began to say they didn't.

Good for them, doesn't mean that in the time since Mazda made their original rings somebody hasn't come up with something better, not that it's even what's concerned with here.

What in the hell are you trying to say? The same 'quirks' that caused this to fail exist in any of the rings (OEM or otherwise). As for your whole different properties thing, I have no idea what you're trying to say so I'm not going to bother trying to say anything to that.

WAYNE88N/A

Don't have to PM, I'll tell everyone here: Like I said, 20K coming up on her, not a single problem. Used new rotor housings and the RA master kit, other than that one seal (they ARE kinda stiff compared to the OEM) everything went in without a hitch... Had about 108 psi compression right off the bat, she was broken in by about 800 miles, and I've been romping on her ever since. Compression hit 120+ all around with about 10k on her (last time I've checked it).

Next time I'll probably use the OEM seals though

felixwankel88

thanks wayne... yeah when i got my engine rite in i noticed it had really good compression... i dident test it but i could start it for 15 seconds and turn it off and then it would fire rite up again...o and btw im using housings with 9k miles on them

jhammons01

I am saying.........

Felix had a very hard time trying to get those coolant seals to stay in the groove. Karack and Felix went back and forth with all kinds of cures to try to stretch the seals. I didn't have near as much trouble with mine. They basically just laid in there after the Hylomar was applied to the groove. One thing that Bruce said to me is that RA has some tighter tolerances on some parts and that if I had any trouble to call him back. He knew how to make adjustments to over come the quirks (his words). That didn't bother me, I just get lazy and I would rather drive some place and buy it rather than over the phone. SO I wound up at Mazdatrix and even paid more.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Ok, now that I can make sense of what you're saying, I do rather agree. If you can go get them locally, that's definatly the best of ways. As far as the 'stretching' and 'quirks' and such, every seal I've used (OEM, RA, etc) have always required a bit of a stretch and always tried to work their ways out, some moreso than others (I've had some OEM ones that I could've sworn were 2" short), but all in all the seals are fine and just require some extra attention to fit, though OEM's do as well sometimes, so it's not really an RA problem. That's what's driving me nuts.

MARTIN

When I put the motor together, the outer seals. seamed short as hell.I had to apply vase. In order for them to stay put..I never had trouble with the inner ones though. They seemed like a perfect fit, plus they are alot stronger than the black ones, therefore they are not stretchable like they are..

JamesBong

OK, so this penguine is driving his RX-7 through the desert, when BAM! it starts blowing smoke. Fortunately the town he rolls into has a rotary shop. He drops it off and goes across the street for some ice cream. He gets a vanilla sundae with marshmallow topping, but can't pick up the spoon. So, he juggles the ice cream in his flippers while biteing at it with his beak. By the time he's done, there's vanilla ice cream and marshmallow topping all over his face. He waddles across the street and asks the mechanic what he found. The mechanic replies "It looks like you blew a seal!" "No, that's just ice cream!" says the penguine, wiping his face.

(Sorry, I heard "blew a seal" and had to share. Please don't hate on me too much.)

ddub

Ok to everyone that thinks RA coolant seals are bad? Why? Seriously people, you can make the same god damned mistakes with OEM seals, maybe its easier to make this mistake with RA ones, but they have worked plenty fine for many people. I've heard of people doing the same thing on OEM seals too, as well as atkins ones. It can happen to any of them! When stacking everything and putting it all together at the end you HAVE to make sure the coolant seals are in properly and not getting pinched or pushed out, that's the bottom line. You have to make sure of this with all coolant seals.

Yes it sucks it happened to Dustin, but don't go bashing Rotary Aviation products just because of a mistake that could happen with any coolant seals.

MARTIN

People tend to bash on RA just because they make products more affordable. They hate on their apex seals too. IF you didnt know, airplane engines are constantly under load, for very long periods of time. They deal with different pressures that comes with altitude. The engines undergo lots of changes during flight, including leaning and richening. I doubt these people would make unreliable products when they place their lifes on the line everytime they leave the ground..

EfiniGirl

I didn't know whether to laugh or not. So I didn't. haha

Anyways, I'm glad you took the engine apart and decided to re-rebuild it again. Good luck! You'll be fine. ^_^

BlaCkPlaGUE

LMAO thats great! lol

Andrew.

iTrader: (4)

Dang dustin that sucks bro good luck on your rebuild again and take your time

-Andrew

islanders_rx7

iTrader: (4)

The last engine I rebuilt was with RA coolant seals! No issues at all. It looks like it was pinched going together.

scathcart

B/c its cheaper for me to order all of them in a set than to order separate water o-rings.

I get the set for $112 USD.

Also, whenever I crack an engine, I replace the dowel o-rings, front cover o-ring, etc. Those things were only meant to be crushed once, and o-rings swell once subjected to petroleum products.

scathcart

I'll step up with my experiences here, and I am not the only one with these experiences.

My main beef with the teflon encapsulated seals is not that they don't fit (b/c you can stretch them), its that they are not the right size. The stock seals are designed in their shape for a reason, and you don't try to jam a round seal into a rectangular bore.

I used to use RA products exclusively; I still like their apex seals. But after 5,000... 10,000... 15,000 miles on the seals, over 75% of them all of a sudden developed the symptoms of a coolant seal problem. Dissassembly of the engine showed no signs of pinching and the engine irons never saw over 240 degrees (otherwise my stamp disentegrates: its how I check if a customer overheats their engine). The seals just plain went flat.
Replacing the seals with Mazda OEM coolant seals and none of the engines have had a problem since.

Take a look at the huge problem "Banzai" John had with his Pineapple Racing build. 5000 miles into a $3000 engine build using these styles of seals and coolant starts smoking out the back. John is an expert on sealing parts, and upon dissassembly of the block, is so appalled at the design of these seals that he goes and designs his own (which coincidentally cost around $150 each).

Lastly, the stock seals tend to stay in their grooves a lot easier than the RA ones, and always require less stretching.

My experiences stem mostly from high-rpm street and bridgeport engines, typically running between 75-200 hp shots of nitrous and/or 10-20 psi of boost, if anyone is interested.


Now then: why is everyone getting so worked up over any negative feedback towards RA? Well, its because the people running their products feel insulted that they may have used an inferior product in their baby's engine build.
Why is the RA kit so cheap? Well, for one, the seals that they use are not sized specifically to the rotary... most of them are SAE o-rings that just happen to fit. A perfect example is the viton oil control o-rings. They are not nearly the same size as Mazda's metric o-rings, this is exactly the reason why the viton o-rings require so much more effort to press into place than the Mazda o-rings. This is also exactly the reason why Dave Gibson of FC3s.org sourced a company to manufacture viton o-rings in the correct metric sizing.

ddub

Yah I've read people that say all this and it makes sense. I have no beef with those claims at all, it just seemed that a lot of people on here were blaming everything on the design. While the design is not as good as OEM obviously, there is just a higher level of care needed (it seems) when installing these to make sure they don't slip out or get pinched.

It really seems like the average, if not most, first time and even second or third time engine rebuilders don't even pay attention to the coolant seals when putting the engine together, making sure they don't fold, slip out, or get pinched. ****, I'm to blame for this myself. On my first rebuild I didn't pay a lick of attention to whether or not the seals were in correctly when stacking the irons and housings. I didn't check to see if they slipped out or anything, until I had the engine almost all together and my friend reminded to check. Luckily they were all in properly and if I had finished it would've been fine, but I think the biggest problem is most people, especially early on, don't even check.

I'm not at all trying to badmouth anyone here at all. I just get tired of people jumping to conclusions and badmouthing companies when they may not have all the knowledge of the situation, or even in some incidents don't even have any first hand experience. That was just my frustration here, reading some of the responses.

Anyways, point taken and I understand.


Ah I see, makes sense then.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

I've got 4 motors running RA seals with 40K each, 3 N/A's and a 240rwhp tII with no issues so far.

scathcart

I understand where you are coming from... I just thought I was implied as an unjustified basher of RA products and wanted to back up my claims from another thread with my experiences in running these seals in around 2 dozen engines.

I still support and enjoy using RA apex seals... I think they are fantastic, but for all of the rest of the parts, I exclusively use Mazda OEM.

I completely agree with you on the badmouthing bandwagon... I would guess I am one of the very few who can back my claims with actual experience.

ddub

And that's why I can accept what you have to say. I wasn't referring to you at all when I was talking about the bashing just other people. Not only this thread but the last one, too.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Actually scathcart, me and dubby have mostly been annoyed with the inexperienced people replying with claims of what they've 'heard' or what they 'think' of the seals and their flaws. Actual feedback of long-term issues is great, and though the seals definatly don't fit the greatest, i've never really had a problem with installing them as long as you pay attention as you're setting them down and if a corner pops out hylomar it up again and try again and no problems at all. I've had issues like that even with OEM though, so I never really thought much of it. Now those damn oil rings, I will be the first on the wagon to tell you just how ******* much I hate those!

scathcart

I've got a few of the lesser-powered engines running similar milage on the RA coolant/apex seals... about 4 6-port N/A engines, 1 6-port nitrous engines, and one turbo bridgeport.

But of the ~25 engines I have built with those seals, 18 of them have been ripped apart for coolant seal issues.

I am not saying that power has any effect on the flattening of these seals... but I am best known for my nitrous installations and tuning, so the people who approach me for builds usually also have the intent of using nitrous and/or boost.

scathcart

I don't really have problems pinching a seal either... comes with experience, but in general, I find the OEM coolant seals to require less tweaking then the aftermarket seals.

SOme of the RA cooalnt seals required no stretching, some did. I wish I had kept track of the ones that did require stretching... part of my thinks that the stretching of them is what leads to the flat spots.
If you stretch a stock coolant seal as far as it will go, it stretches like a rubber band and then snaps.
If you pull apart an RA coolant seal, it will seem to pull apart like bubble gum in one area before snapping.

I considered that stretching by hand was causing these thin spots, and started to try pressing them into place with a piece of plexiglass and my hydraulic press and then leaving them to set overnight before actually building the engine... but those seals also gave me issues.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Interesting to know, sadly the only 3 engines I've built running any decent ammount of power (>300) aren't rolling on that many miles yet. I did have to split a T04E block that the guy popped at 13K and the seals looked good still. I don't stretch any of mine however, I usually soak them all in some very hot water, pull them out dry them off and lay them in. (I do this with all of my coolant seals). Thanks for the good info though, **** like this needs to hit the archive!