Snrub

iTrader: (1)

Okay if you are knowledgable in any of these areas, please tell me what the correct answer, direction,etc. I will be doing some road racing in the future, but the car will still be used a lot on the street.

1. Eibach ERS springs seem like the way to go. I was thinking something like 300f/225r. (fairly similar to FD R1) I realize that's a bit low for serious racing, but sound good? I've heard ERSs don't lower the car as much as those progressive one, how much should I expect?

2. Stock springs are 8" and 10" correct? Could I get taller ones to raise the car and then lower the car to stock with a kit like this? http://www.mazdatrix.com/h6_86-92.htm
I've heard the taller the spring the better.

3. Stock ride hight?

4. Adjustable coilovers, how much of a difference do they really make in a racing situation?

5. I've been reading some bad things about the KYB AGXs. That they're not well suited in performance and/or don't have the quality for racing. Should I my choice only be between Tokico Illuminas or Koni yellows?

Thanks for the help and please excuse any stupidity contained within.

Silkworm

1. 300/225 is fine for the street (IMHO) but way too soft for racing. You'll want to replace these later on. It'll be ok for the occasional track day. ERS springs are designed to be used with coil overs, never seen someone use them in a stock strut setup (i.e. without the coil over spring seat).

2. Don't know, but I honestly don't think there's a lot to be gained here. ERS springs are fairly inexpensive, can't hurt to experiment. 8/10 is the heights I'm using.

3. Stock ride height is good for the street, track you want a bit lower but not dramatically low. .75" lower is about what mine's at.

4. Coilovers are required for adjusting cross weights on a car, essentially allowing you to weight jack the car for left corners, right corners, or equal. You really gotta be racing to give a damn about this. Street cars really have no need for adjustable coil overs.

5. I prefer Koni yellows, but never used Toks. The Koni's aren't a drop in replacement, you have some surgery to do to make them fit.

PaulC

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

I should have just PMed you with these questions.

1. So are you saying ERSs wouldn't work on a stock setup? I'm completely ignorant on this part of the equation, I thought the springs were the same in adjustable & non-adjustable coilovers.

2. I'd prefer to only replace the springs once.

3. I was hoping someone actually knew the stock ride height.

4. When you say adjustable coilovers are "required for adjusting the cross wieghts," do you mean they're virtually a requirement for racing?

5. I'd prefer not to do surgury, although I don't exactly understand what it would entail.

I'd still like someone's comments about the KYB AGXs, should I avoid them?

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the stock front springs are about 6" diameter at the top, the ers springs are 2.5" you need at least an adaptor to make it work. or camber plates www.k2rd.com

me too, its actually easy on an fc. i'm running 400/220 on mine

my "stock" ride height with the 20b installed was 26.5" from the ground through the center of the wheel to the wheel arch.

yes

i have the agx's and they are great so far, i think if you put really stiff front springs on they would run out of damping range, but on the street and for an occasional track day they are perfect.

mike

OC_

It would be best to go with a linear rate spring. I forgot who makes them, but on the fc3s.org project car, he put them on there. Linear rate springs = better performance but the ride will be more harsh. Get the rear tow eliminator and camber adjustments all the way around. What kind of racing are you doing? autox? do u get pointed for these mods? Coilover are good cuz u have such a selection of springs. You can adjust corner weights, and ride hight. Springs arnt everything. Iv read some really good books about suspensions, and really you want to go with a soft spring. But when you lower your car, springs have to be stiffer just so you dont crash into the ground. Get some swaybars too. Out of the ST, RB and ibach swaybars, the ibach is the biggest.

Silkworm

ERS springs are linear, so no worries there. There's no better performance out of a linear spring, performance is all about spring rate and choosing the correct rates for your application. Progressive springs are nice, because their inital rates are very soft, so you get a coushy ride around town, but stiffen up as the spring compresses. In a race type car, that's a bad thing because your initial turn it will be unsettling and unpredictable. Around town, this is fine.

Snrub,

Well, with ERS springs, it's not a bad thing to change, fairly simple. And don't expect your first choice to be 100% correct, at this point I'm going to experiment with 500#/in springs up front to help cure some body roll.

I'd strongly consider going with coilovers if you eventually want to go racing, that way you have a much broader choice of spring rates, they're easy to change, and you can corner weight the car for handling balance.

Here's some info for you on that subject:
http://www.grmotorsports.com/cornerweight.html

Refering to surgery, basically you have two options, you can get the Mazda Comp coil over kit, which comes with replacement strut tubes that you drop your Koni strut inserts into. This is the clean way, and they make the strut tubes out of some BEEFY steel, no bending anything here

Or, you can do the surgery. This means taking your front struts, cutting them open, reusing the strut housing. It's cheap, but messy, and good luck getting anyone but a full on race shop to do this for you, your average pep boys/midas type shops are going to turn you away. Search this forum, someone just posted a how to on this subject.

Regards,

PaulC




PaulC

OC_

Those Tein HA coilove kits have somthing around 500# front springs. Im thinking of getting that setup, but if i do, my car really wont be streetable. Id bet youd 3 wheel over a curb, just leaving your driveway

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

I was thinking about doing something like solo II on road courses. Who knows, maybe a little autoX too. I'd rather not pick parts that "could be used occationally for the track."

j9fd3s brings up a interesting point; why does K2RD push the KYB AGXs if they're suppose to be so poor?

Thanks for the info guys.

adamlewis

SOLO II = Auto X

SOLO I = Road course... Its also very $$$ from what I hear so beware.

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm..Can you say dumbass? Okay, what's the lowest form of amatuer road racing?

adamlewis

Naw...No dumbass. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes. Hopefully, theres just someone to help point them out


As for road racing, Im not sure...
Ive never had the free time ( or more importantly, free money ) to actively pursue it.

Try looking at SCCA.org and see what you can dig up

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

they agx's are relatively new, where the koni's and the tokiko's have been around for 10+ years. maybe the rep is just because they haven't been around that long?
i'm happy with mine, although they havent had time to go bad yet (ive got 1k miles on them)

mike

Silkworm

Lowest form of amateur road racing? no such thing

However,going from expensive to OMG I have no money left:

Improved Touring S (13B) or A (12A)

E-Production

GT2 (13B) or GT3 (12A)

For turbo cars, you have only one real option

Improved Touring E


Now, remember, road racing, you're going to be banging fenders and bumpers, are you sure this is what you want to be getting into? If so, great! If not, there are other forms of events held on circuit road courses that you may enjoy as much..

Open Tracking: Take your street car out on course, rules typically require a car in good working order, 3 point seat belts, etc. Safety gear typically consists of: Helmet, sometimes a fire extinguisher. Many many organizations hold these type of events, and welcome experience levels from advanced to total beginner.

Solo I: AKA Time Trials. You take your car and compete against the clock, fastest time in your class wins. I don't know the safety gear requirements for Solo I, but it's really not that expensive, compared to actual road racing. Hill climbs are similar.

Regards,

PaulC

OC_

I race with the midwestern Council. We autox midwest trax like gingerman raceway and Blackhawk farms. An N/A RX-7 is classified as a "C" car in the Council. Theirs 4 sub classes within each class, C stock, C prepared, C modified and C race. It goes by a point based system, you move up a class by moding your car. If you add something like better springs and swaybars to your car, you they move you to C prepared. Every subclass has its point range, except race. This how this club works.

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

I thought there was a form of road racing where you went head to head, but weren't allowed to pass on corners?

As for the bumping and grinding, I'd want to do that stuff, but not immediately. I'm Canadian, as the likes of the Villeneuves and Paul Tracy demonstrate we like to be aggresive behind the wheel of a car.

From what little I've gathered cars in the ITE catagory are the real heavy hitters, right/wrong?

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

I thought there was a form of road racing where you went head to head, but weren't allowed to pass on corners?

As for the bumping and grinding, I'd want to do that stuff, but not immediately. I'm Canadian, as the likes of the Villeneuves and Paul Tracy demonstrate we like to be aggresive behind the wheel of a car.

From what little I've gathered cars in the ITE catagory are the real heavy hitters, right/wrong?

Rs4Racer

I want to put some tein ha's on my car

RETed

My input...

300/225 is a bit too soft, unless you're talking about street use...
GC recommends 350/225, and this rates as a "firm" ride on the street - the FC is NOT a Buick, right? &nbsp I run the original 400/275 GC combo, and this is pretty stiff for the street, but on the track it should be perfect (see below).&nbsp Check spring rates for the FC race cars in the Option mags, and you'll see that 8/6 kg-mm is a typical spring rate set-up for FC's.&nbsp 1 kg-mm = 55.88 pound-inch, thus 8 kg-mm = 447 pound-in and 6 kg-mm = 335 pound-inch - very close to what GC originally recommends.

The KYB AGX units are the old GAB dampers.&nbsp GAB has a great reputation for aftermarket dampers.&nbsp KYB has been a long supplier/contractor of OEM dampers for most Japanese vehicles.

The KYB AGX dampers are a direct competitor for the Tokico Illuminas.&nbsp They have a slightly wider range of adjustment than the Tokico Illuminas and priced significantly cheaper - this makes it a "best buy" in my book.

I do not question the quality of KYB shocks, period.&nbsp If their long-standing reputation as an OEM manufacturer doesn't cut it, then maybe this story will...&nbsp You can confirm with Paul Ko or K2RD on this racing story...&nbsp Paul had taken one of their race cars out on the track (Thunderhill) when an off-course excursion (I think T5) caused them to contact a pretty solid patch of dirt (they think they hit a hidden boulder just under the dirt surface).&nbsp The front of the car created a loud *BANG* - they thought they broke something!&nbsp After pulling into the pits and a quick inspection, they found the front camber plate BENT (the K2RD camber plate is 3/16" STEEL)!&nbsp They were ready to jack the car up to see a damaged shock (leaking seal), but the shocks was fine.&nbsp I believe the car actually got back on the track after that incident and the those KYB AGX's are still on that car today.

The KYB AGX and Tokico Illuminas are "enthusiast" level dampers.&nbsp You really can't insert the Koni (yellows) in the same class.&nbsp The Koni's have a way wider (and finer) adjustment; the Koni's can be rebuilt and converted to two-way adjustable (compression and rebound).&nbsp You just can't do that with the KYB and the Tokico units.&nbsp I believe (I might be wrong on this) these Koni's are adjusted by rotating the shock body?

With most coilover set-ups, you can use a 6" (hard to find) or 7" front spring and an 8" rear spring.

With the adjustable coilovers, drop the chassis as far low as possible.&nbsp Lower CG is always a good thing for handling.



-Ted

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

Ted that's exactly what I wanted to hear, thank you.

Please come around more often, we need you.