Twin turbo manifold
04-11-10, 08:23 AM
#1
Twin turbo manifold
Ok first off I only want solid answers.. No flame.
Is the exhaust manifold from the 3rd the same bolt pattern as the 2nd gen exhuast mani??
Also I am aware of with turbo-N/A setups you have to space out the manifold 2.5 inches.
Has anybody ever every done this ??
Also basicly I need to know if that manifold will work for me. With mods.. Or do I need to have one fab'ed up.
Thanks a lot wes
Btw car is a s4 n/a
Is the exhaust manifold from the 3rd the same bolt pattern as the 2nd gen exhuast mani??
Also I am aware of with turbo-N/A setups you have to space out the manifold 2.5 inches.
Has anybody ever every done this ??
Also basicly I need to know if that manifold will work for me. With mods.. Or do I need to have one fab'ed up.
Thanks a lot wes
Btw car is a s4 n/a
04-11-10, 09:05 AM
#2
as long as they don't hit the LIM (I can't say I've measured) I don't see why they wouldn't work. you just need custom oil and coolant lines and an EMS that doesn't require the AFM (or some crazy intake piping). you could even run them sequentially if you know what you were doing. but it's the whole "if you have to ask..." deal. The fact that you made a thread about this does not inspire confidence.
If you're really serious about this, here's what you do. You get a set of used twins and an FD exhaust manifold. Remove/permanently open the turbo control and precontrol doors. On the wastegate, use a precontrol door and port the passageway for solid boost control. Run custom oil return lines--one to the front cover (factory location), and the other you will have to run right into the oil pan by welding in a flange. You may need to get some flanges machined that will go to the turbos themselves (oil feed and return flanges on the turbos). I am not sure off the top of my head whether the FD flanges are a standard type or not. I remember them looking like typical T25 style but I could be wrong.
Feed the oil from the front iron (stock T2 feed location) and either split it off to the two turbos (not sure how well that would work) or tap the other oil feed from the oil pressure sending unit location or from an oil filter pedestel sandwich plate. You have to be really careful about the fittings and the routing of the lines to prevent leaks. The coolant feed comes from the T2 LIM, the stock location that normally has a hard line bolted to it for the stock turbo. Take a split air blockoff plate (same flange as factory water feed line). Drill a hole and weld in a 6AN fitting to the blockoff plate. Connect a 6AN tee/splitter to the fitting. Bolt the blockoff plate to the LIM and you now have your coolant feed source.
For the coolant return, you can run one to the factory location by welding an aluminum 6AN flange on to the barb that's already on the waterpump housing. The other coolant return you might be able to tee into the heater hose return at the bottom end tank of the rad (not sure how well that would work). Another possible option is to remove the two terminal water sensor for the subzero start assist at the bottom of the rad and return the coolant for one of the turbos there. You have to be really careful about the fittings and the routing of the lines to prevent leaks.
Use the factory Y pipe for the compressor outlet but remove the charge control valve and plug the holes with JB weld. Boost is controlled with the wastegate valve, pre control does nothing. Then fab intercooler piping. Modify a downpipe that is supposed to be for an FD.
As long as there is LIM and strut tower clearance (and I'm not sure about that), it can be done.
read this article about how the factory sequential twins work:
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/why-engine-so-damn-complicated-part-1-sequential-turbos-demystified-841821/
running them sequentially would be easier with a standalone and will probably require a custom solenoid rack, plus you need to REALLY understand the plumbing. Technically if you had an Rtek 2.1 and a nitrous window switch you could do it sequentially. Control the charge relief solenoid with the window switch. Switch the turbo control vacuum, turbo control pressure, and charge control solenoids with the rpm activated switch function in the Rtek. The charge control solenoid will need a relay to invert the signal, as the charge control solenoid should be switched OFF at the sequential transition point while the other two solenoids should be switched ON.
If I had a random T2 and some extra money I think I'd probably try to do it all sequentially just to prove people wrong (not because it would be that great of a setup)... it can't be that hard if you've done custom turbo setups before and you understand exactly how the FD twins work.
If you're really serious about this, here's what you do. You get a set of used twins and an FD exhaust manifold. Remove/permanently open the turbo control and precontrol doors. On the wastegate, use a precontrol door and port the passageway for solid boost control. Run custom oil return lines--one to the front cover (factory location), and the other you will have to run right into the oil pan by welding in a flange. You may need to get some flanges machined that will go to the turbos themselves (oil feed and return flanges on the turbos). I am not sure off the top of my head whether the FD flanges are a standard type or not. I remember them looking like typical T25 style but I could be wrong.
Feed the oil from the front iron (stock T2 feed location) and either split it off to the two turbos (not sure how well that would work) or tap the other oil feed from the oil pressure sending unit location or from an oil filter pedestel sandwich plate. You have to be really careful about the fittings and the routing of the lines to prevent leaks. The coolant feed comes from the T2 LIM, the stock location that normally has a hard line bolted to it for the stock turbo. Take a split air blockoff plate (same flange as factory water feed line). Drill a hole and weld in a 6AN fitting to the blockoff plate. Connect a 6AN tee/splitter to the fitting. Bolt the blockoff plate to the LIM and you now have your coolant feed source.
For the coolant return, you can run one to the factory location by welding an aluminum 6AN flange on to the barb that's already on the waterpump housing. The other coolant return you might be able to tee into the heater hose return at the bottom end tank of the rad (not sure how well that would work). Another possible option is to remove the two terminal water sensor for the subzero start assist at the bottom of the rad and return the coolant for one of the turbos there. You have to be really careful about the fittings and the routing of the lines to prevent leaks.
Use the factory Y pipe for the compressor outlet but remove the charge control valve and plug the holes with JB weld. Boost is controlled with the wastegate valve, pre control does nothing. Then fab intercooler piping. Modify a downpipe that is supposed to be for an FD.
As long as there is LIM and strut tower clearance (and I'm not sure about that), it can be done.
read this article about how the factory sequential twins work:
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/why-engine-so-damn-complicated-part-1-sequential-turbos-demystified-841821/
running them sequentially would be easier with a standalone and will probably require a custom solenoid rack, plus you need to REALLY understand the plumbing. Technically if you had an Rtek 2.1 and a nitrous window switch you could do it sequentially. Control the charge relief solenoid with the window switch. Switch the turbo control vacuum, turbo control pressure, and charge control solenoids with the rpm activated switch function in the Rtek. The charge control solenoid will need a relay to invert the signal, as the charge control solenoid should be switched OFF at the sequential transition point while the other two solenoids should be switched ON.
If I had a random T2 and some extra money I think I'd probably try to do it all sequentially just to prove people wrong (not because it would be that great of a setup)... it can't be that hard if you've done custom turbo setups before and you understand exactly how the FD twins work.
that was me addressing someone with a T2 originally. Since you have an n/a, you will need to make oil and coolant sources and a place to return them, maybe by using a T2 front cover and waterpump housing for the return lines if that's possible. And of course measure that the FD twins will fit with the LIM, because I believe the bolt pattern is the same.
04-11-10, 01:14 PM
#3
I have done the TB MOD so I have 2 capped off coolant lines one off the block and the 2nd is from the water pump..
This project is gunna get planned out very well b4 anything happens.. Good to know that the exhaust manifold will fit... rite now my LIM is being modded to clear emission and 5th and 6th port castings. That will help but I understand it won't work completely. I belive I would still need a spacer.
This project is gunna get planned out very well b4 anything happens.. Good to know that the exhaust manifold will fit... rite now my LIM is being modded to clear emission and 5th and 6th port castings. That will help but I understand it won't work completely. I belive I would still need a spacer.
04-11-10, 01:30 PM
#4
Good to know that the exhaust manifold will fit... rite now my LIM is being modded to clear emission and 5th and 6th port castings.
Are you going to run sequential or non sequential? If you do sequential you will need to trigger the charge control, turbo control vacuum, and turbo control pressure solenoids with an rpm switch at 4000rpm. You will need a window switch for the charge relief from 2500-4000rpm. This is simpler logic than what the FD does from the factory but it should get the job done. Then you will need either two MBC's for the precontrol and wastegate, a single EBC for both (not ideal but it will work) or two EBC's (which is what the FD has from the factory).
Also the FD downpipe has from what I've seen a proprietary bolt pattern. You will have to buy a downpipe made for an FD and modify it.
What are you going to do for engine management? If you are going Rtek you will need to figure out where to fit the AFM and then make a custom y pipe/splitter to feed the two turbo inlets. You will definitely want an Efan conversion for the extra space. If you do a standalone (which I recommend) it will be a lot easier because you won't have to deal with plumbing the AFM. You can also use the standalone to switch the sequential turbo controls but the Rtek could also handle some of that. If you want to go sequential the Power FC would be the easiest thing to use as it already has the sequential turbo control logic built in and has two boost control outputs, plus switching logic for charge control, charge relief, turbo control vac and pressure solenoids. Look into the custom solenoid setups people are running (big thread in 3rd gen forum) or buy brand new OEM solenoids. The solenoids and check valves inevitably fail, used ones are not a good idea if you want reliable sequential control.
Simplest setup by far would be full non sequential.
04-11-10, 02:33 PM
#5
"Rich man's" non sqect. Turbos. Is what I bought. I haven't decided on which ecu to use. But the guy who sold me the twins. can sell me the manifold. Like you said about the down pipe there is going to be a lot of custom mods like oil feed and drain lines. From my understanding the stock FD's push like 10 psi. I wouldn't go any higher than that. But 550cc are in the T2 fc and 550cc primes and 850cc sec. Are in the FD's so would a fuel flow like that work for me or what kind of cc injector would be recomended??
Oo and yes I have Efan hooked up already.. So I'm good on space.. No air pump, ac, or power steering, emission deletes, no 5th and 6th ports, tb mod.
Oo and yes I have Efan hooked up already.. So I'm good on space.. No air pump, ac, or power steering, emission deletes, no 5th and 6th ports, tb mod.
04-11-10, 02:58 PM
#6
FD's are side feed injectors, you don't have the proper rails to use them. I would go 550 primary with 1000's that fit in the stock rail. The FD turbos are good up to 12psi without stressing them too much, with a max of 14psi before you really shorten their life and increase intake temps. If this is a high compression build (9.4:1 stock rotors) 10psi is fine. Just be careful with the timing map.
I think you should be able to feed the coolant from the rear iron and return the coolant to the back of the WP housing if you plumb it correctly and get the right fittings. Pull the oil feed from the oil pressure sending unit location or with an oil filter sandwich plate, then you will have to return to the oil pan for at least the rear turbo. Custom oil return lines are tricky as they are prone to backing up or leaking if not angled correctly.
If you have room and want to use an Rtek, you could try putting the AFM behind the efan and then see if you can pull fresh air from the driver side fender. You will need a custom splitter to feed the turbo inlets as I said. The rear turbo has a little elbow piece for the inlet, so it's actually fed from the top. Blowoff valve is connected to a barb on the Y pipe. You could use a factory FD BOV and reroute it after the AFM, or get an aftermarket BOV that is designed to be a drop-in on an FD. Having the nonturbo throttlebody and manifolds may complicate things further because it is on the same side as the turbos.
I think you should be able to feed the coolant from the rear iron and return the coolant to the back of the WP housing if you plumb it correctly and get the right fittings. Pull the oil feed from the oil pressure sending unit location or with an oil filter sandwich plate, then you will have to return to the oil pan for at least the rear turbo. Custom oil return lines are tricky as they are prone to backing up or leaking if not angled correctly.
If you have room and want to use an Rtek, you could try putting the AFM behind the efan and then see if you can pull fresh air from the driver side fender. You will need a custom splitter to feed the turbo inlets as I said. The rear turbo has a little elbow piece for the inlet, so it's actually fed from the top. Blowoff valve is connected to a barb on the Y pipe. You could use a factory FD BOV and reroute it after the AFM, or get an aftermarket BOV that is designed to be a drop-in on an FD. Having the nonturbo throttlebody and manifolds may complicate things further because it is on the same side as the turbos.
04-11-10, 10:15 PM
#7
Yea the passegenger side of the engine is going to be pretty stuffed. But slowly but surely I'm goin to make this work. Thanks for all your help. Its going to be a very slow project. I started with getting the twin HT12's gonna work on geting the exhuast manifold next. I have nothing but time. I have a suspended licence now so sept I get it back so by a year from now I just wanna have all the parts. And I can go from there.
Trying to do all my research now so I can be completely ready for this project.
Also lemme ask what are the limits of a apexi afc neo...? I read a post saying 21psi on a turbo na set up useing the stock ecu.. That is way more that I'm shooting for. But is a piggy back the way to go or a full blown ecu?
Trying to do all my research now so I can be completely ready for this project.
Also lemme ask what are the limits of a apexi afc neo...? I read a post saying 21psi on a turbo na set up useing the stock ecu.. That is way more that I'm shooting for. But is a piggy back the way to go or a full blown ecu?
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04-12-10, 01:40 AM
#8
Do not use an AFC Neo with a high compression setup. All it does is alter the airflow meter voltage. By altering the airflow signal you can lean out the larger injectors, but as a side effect it may advance the ignition timing which can cause knock. You need something with proper timing control. The main viable options are Rtek 2.1 or a full standalone. With the Rtek you will keep the airflow meter and that means you will have to figure out how to fit it in there. It will require more complicated intake piping because the intake air must pass through the AFM and then split off to both turbos, just like on a 3000GT. With AFM removal you can have two separate pipes with two separate filters. From the factory the FD has no AFM and a large airbox that is fed fresh air from the front of the car. The airbox connects to inlet hoses for both turbos, plus recirculation for the factory blowoff valve, charge relief valve, and air pump/ACV.
Good luck with the project, it will be unique. I've already thought about how this could be done and I do think you can pull it off as long as you can make the turbos and exhaust manifold fit.
Good luck with the project, it will be unique. I've already thought about how this could be done and I do think you can pull it off as long as you can make the turbos and exhaust manifold fit.
05-16-10, 01:40 AM
#10
Eh not much of an update on this project.. But o well here it is.
Hopefully the exhuast manifold is comin with in the next week.
And I should be finishing the modded LIM also next week. Doing a lot of reasearch now. So I can have this project perfect! I will post some pics of the modded LIM and some test fitted pic of the twins next time I'm at a computer! Sorry yall I'm on a cell fone!
Hopefully the exhuast manifold is comin with in the next week.
And I should be finishing the modded LIM also next week. Doing a lot of reasearch now. So I can have this project perfect! I will post some pics of the modded LIM and some test fitted pic of the twins next time I'm at a computer! Sorry yall I'm on a cell fone!
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