Rob XX 7

iTrader: (8)

sooooooo true, my FCs dynoed almost identical HP to the wheels, but my coupe feels like a raw, in your face animal- in my particular case its the torque difference

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Weight Reduction Commandment #1: Date Skinny Chicks!

The weight reduction you guys are arguing over is more than fixed by proper selection of the right seat passenger.

I'm just saying...

nitronatefc

iTrader: (2)

To the OP, I would highly recommend staying rotary and buying a donor car for the swap. You will be glad you have it. For me, it was nice to have another car next to the one i was working on for reference. In most cases, you can pick the better condition/performing of two parts for your application. When it's over, you have left overs to sell and offset your costs. I haven't researched toyota swaps, but I would think there is a lot to consider, and less support for problems you have. Sure, toyota guys can help with tuning issues, but install problems will be your problem. Can a JZ-GTE motor easily adapt to your brake booster or power steering? Are you trying to keep air conditioning, because that's another can of worms to open. Are engine mounts available, or do you need to fab them? How will you mount the toyota tranny, and do you plan to connect it to you open N/A rear end? If you are going to buy a TII rear end, tranny, and fab/buy a bellhousing adapter to mate to the toyota motor, then you probably just spent as much as buying a full TII engine/trans/diff swap.

My opinion is you should do a stock TII swap. Buy a nice unrestrictive exhaust system right away, since you are going to need to change exhaust no matter what. Port the turbo wastegate as big as you can (which is free). Buy a used Fuel Cut defencer (FCD), an accurate boost gauge, and start driving and enjoying your car. Just watch the gauge so if you creep above 10psi or so It will feel faster than your n/a does now, I guarantee it. Then you can drive it while you save for engine management and the new turbo. It seems the cheapest way to your goal would be with a BNR turbo, since it retains stock fitment exhaust wise. Otherwise you need a new exhaust manifold, custom exhaust, possibly an external wastegate setup, intercooler piping, etc. Unless you plan to use water/meth inj, you will need a new intercooler too. Then it's the radiator, Then injectors, Then another thing, Then some other thing....

My point is that the TII engine drivetrain swap w/ exhaust, FCD, and a boost gauge is attainable for under $2000 easily. You will have a fairly reliable car that is faster than what it is now. The next part of the upgrade is what gets expensive. "Dropping the Bomb" all at once on a project is a nice day dream, but few have the funds or patience to do it. Learn to walk, then run...


Also, why has this thread turned into a coupe vs vert weight debate? The OP already has a car. He's not shopping for a chassis. Plus he didn't even bring it up in the 1st place. A 350hp vert, gutted or dressed, should still spank a newer 300hp mustang. We should keep on track, because this could be a good thread

Rob XX 7

iTrader: (8)

it turned into a coupe versus vert weight issue because the OP was also considering a V8 swap, it was suggested that the added benefit of the additional torque from a V8 or other piston engine swap would offset the weight better- then it just grows from there.

A $2000 swap is going to be a all used parts stock type swap, I dont think you could get a good reliable long lasting 300-350 swap accomplished for under $2000 but thats just my opinion and one I base on my years of meeting other seven owners and reading other people's projects on the boards and thier results and how long they lasted.

But in the end its the amount of time and details the person doing the swap took and how the car is cared for after that will determine how long it lasts and how well it runs

88RXVERT

iTrader: (5)

I know what you mean by “feels like”…. stat sheets don’t lie, people do. This argument is going down just like the race would, I would cross the finish line first and you would have this “feeling” or “belief” that you won the race.

You’re starting to look like a Smurf in the face! I am willing to agree to disagree and give the OP his thread back!

jjcobm

iTrader: (18)

Getting a donor car is something I am trying to avoid, if I do go TII route, I am just looking at getting a JDM spec engine/trans/differential. This way I can avoid having to deal with getting rid of my left over parts from/and a donor car.

Swapping in a stock TII is something I have been thinking, and since the engine will already be out I know for a fact I will open it up and port/rebuild/upgrade turbo before I toss it in the vert. The one thing I do like about the idea of using a TII is the fact that I won't have to deal with the headaches of making my spedo, tacho, and other gauges functional or any electronics in general everything will work right out of the box. That to me is a plus. Over all the options I have looked at.

I agree on this and is the reason I have stated that I will definetly be opening the TII engine before I toss it back in. I don't want to take the risk and I also want to know that I am starting off "fresh" and just have to keep up with maintanance.

As it sits at this moment, I think a TII will get me to where I want my vert to be at without the headaches of a piston engine swap/6port turbo, no offence to anyone thinking of doing it, im all for it, but I think for me this is the best option for the power i want to make, simplicity, and from all the ideas we have toss around here.

HOZZMANRX7

iTrader: (43)

"The one thing I do like about the idea of using a TII is the fact that I won't have to deal with the headaches of making my spedo, tacho, and other gauges functional or any electronics in general everything will work right out of the box. That to me is a plus. Over all the options I have looked at.

I have a complete nose to tail S4 Vert/TII swap, and a complete nose to tail S5 Vert/TII swap. Both are emissions (at least once every two years*) compliant. Picture of the S4 TurboVert in my profile. My goal was for my FSM to be meaningful after the swaps were completed.

The only "electronics" that was needed (assuming you use the TII ECU and harness) were two wires added to the ECU harness for the alternator and installation of an aftermarket booost guage.

*Once every two years I put a belt on the Air Pump and swap in a cat for my RB presilencer for smog check purposes.

jjcobm

iTrader: (18)

This is exactly what I am talking about, I think I have my mind made up

jjcobm

iTrader: (18)

As far as this goes, when you say all the NA harnesses are you talking about body & engine harness too? Would you be able to explain this in alittle more detail or if anyone else knows?

Rob XX 7

iTrader: (8)

im pretty sure the additional 100+ ft. lbs of torque dont lie, equal HP cars but one with 100+ more ft lbs tq will be the faster car


you act like im talking out of my ***, I own both cars so I can express my feelings as much as you can.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

I don't know why 88 just wants to argue his point of view, name call and project his 'belief' on your actual information.

This discussion usually takes the form of horsepower vs. torque.

In this case it is horsepower vs. horsepower+100 ft. lbs.

to make it simple for 88 how bout this formula:

Horsepower - 100 ft. lb. vs. Horsepower

And Rob's description of the feel is not subjective. It is descriptive of the difference between two dyno tested cars. That actually means that Rob has 'stat sheets' and 88 has his 'opinion'.

Yes, the area under the curve is greater with the additional torque. You can in fact feel it because it is *real*.

Kinda makes '88 look(to borrow his phrase) Smurf-in-the face, arguing with you about your cars, polluting this thread.

Back to work, OP has made a good choice-

SirCygnus

iTrader: (1)

ask japan2la for his t2 manifolds thgat bolt to 6 port engines.


your done.

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

Yes, every wiring harness can be left alone. That includes the front harness, engine harness & engine management harness. Adapting the NA engine management harness to a turbo engine is extremely simple, as long as you're swapping within the same series (ie S4 NA -> S4 TII). It comes down to cutting 1 wire & extending 5 others for the TPS and BAC. That's it. This was by far the easiest part of my swap.

I've posted details on this in a lot of threads, but this is the most complete: https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-gen-archive-72/s4-na-turbo-swap-details-813825/. This thread is also a very detailed guide to doing the entire swap, as well.

jjcobm

iTrader: (18)

Theres more involved than just manifolds, i wanted to go this route but in the end it is more efficient to just get the TII swap as mentioned in previous posts.

I was not aware of this at all, this is very good information. Thanks!

I am sure this also applies, but all the sensor locations are the same on a JDM spec engine correct? So the same applies would I apply am I right? Just want to make sure since this is the type of engine I am looking at getting.

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

Yeah, JDM engines are almost identical. The emissions related differences will be the size of the air pump & a lack of a split air solenoid on the ACV. The non-emissions differences will be twin-scroll actuator mounting, the secondary double throttle setup & the fuel lines are reversed. Also, JDM transmissions don't have a 5th gear switch integrated into the reverse switch (5th gear switch is emissions related anyway).

88RXVERT

iTrader: (5)

We were talking about ONLY the weight of a stock S4 vert -VS- the weight of a stock S5 TII. We both have made comments about our own personal cars which is entirely irrelevent, this has nothing to do with HIS car or MINE, it has only served to confuse you. This has NOTHING to do with horsepower, and everything to do with weight...again the S4 vert weight only 16 pounds more then the S5 TII...does that mean I think that the stock S4 vert would win in a race against a stock S5 TII, HELL NO. I know the S5 TII has more torque. Your comments only prove your lack of reading comprehension coupled with your desire to stick your nose were it does not belong, empty handed to boot.

88RXVERT

iTrader: (5)

No ****???? A car with 100 LESS ft. lbs of torque will feel heavier then one with 100 ft. lbs more! This aint rocket surgery...or is it???!

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Rocket surgery?
Perhaps.

I'm still of the opinion that the V-8 swap would be more fun.

88RXVERT

iTrader: (5)

Its either... Brain Science or Rocket Surgery...LOL

OK...OK... V8... but then you would HAVE to have the louvered plastic hatch glass cover to match.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Wow, you don't take criticism well do you?

Rob was clearly speaking of the difference in torque between his cars that have the same horsepower. He stated dyno numbers to make his point regarding the effect on the overall performance or 'feel' of the car.

You persisted in telling him that he needed numbers rather than feelings, even to the point you making up a race that you won. Lovely.

I was trying to help you understand, but you are too emotional to get there.

I really like the part where you think you get to decide where I belong. Here is a tip you will likely resent: If you want to have a *private* conversation, you shouldn't do it on on someone else's thread.

You really hate being wrong, but you are pretty good at it, aren't you?

Have a nice... life.

88RXVERT

iTrader: (5)

Once again you miss the POINT of this discussion. The point here once again...is that WE were talking about the weight of the cars in comparison to each other. Yes he did make mention of the HP in his cars being comparable and the feeling of the two cars..but that was simply a side note to the topic at hand. What your saying is actually an insult to both Rob and myself...because you actually think that we were comparing 2 cars, one of which having 100 more ft. lbs of torque then the other, as if either of us are under the impression that that comparison is even conceivable or practical for that matter. The fact of the matter is the Rob cant and wont belive that his two FC's (simply because he just so happens to own the both cars that I made mentioned of in my initial comparison, what are the chances of that?, maybe thats whats stumping you up here??) are only 16 pounds apart in weight is stock form, he stated that one "feels" heavier ..the whole time knowing that the car that feels lighter has 100 MORE ft lbs of torque, which is not a fair or accurate comparison. Rob knows his dyno sheets don’t take into account the weight of the two cars which is once again irrelevant. What Rob is struggling with is the fact that Mazda quotes the weights of the two cars at 16 pounds apart in weight as a matter of FACT.

If you, yes even you, go back and read the exchange between Rob and myself..then apply his logic to this hypothetical situation:

S4 Vert -VS- S5 TII with identical setups HP, Torque, Drive train, EVERYTHING with the vert being the same WEIGHT (16 pounds less then stock)

Rob would believe that the S5II would be the "faster car" and the vert a "**** car" by his own admission.... which is simply not true.

One would have to come to the conclusion that they would be very comparable and that from one pass to another it would be a toss up, based on other factors, like driver ability, conditions etc...

It’s actually a shame that you took the time to respond once again empty handed while you should have taken the time to back and read it again or even have someone else explain it to you since you cant grasp the FACT that this was about the WEIGHT of two STOCK FC's, Not Robs FC's.

Maybe your just tired..dude go get some ZZZZZ's

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Have you ever noticed in nearly every post you claim the other guys can't read or comprehend? Rob is right, you really do need to tone down a little.

And you missed the point in your exchange w/Rob where the conversation turned to HP and torque. That's where I came in. This is where I go out.

I think, to borrow your verbiage, that it is your reading comprehension.

I am done here. You really are tiresome.

Rob XX 7

iTrader: (8)

there were many points being made, the topic drifted from one subject to another, seems like one person is just keeping on about the same subject and cant get past it, so once again I will address that issue and say I just dont believe the 16lb difference. And I say that not because I am a keyboard engineer, but because I have owned and own both versions of the cars.

the part where someone noted the weights of a factory turbo vert and a factory turbo coupe being "For the S4 the difference is 60kg (132lb) and for the S5 it's 80kg (176lb)" is not having any attention being paid to it here. Those are mazda specs as well.

I have owned my fair share of coupes, and my fair share of convertibles, owning my convertible since 1994-1995, I think I have a feel for my car by now and a good feel for FCs of all varieties. I dont have anything in either car that would add or delete any weight, full interiors, AC, etc.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Given that the OP already has a '91 S5 model, is this loop even relevant anymore?
He has what he has and it is what it is, so weight differences between different series and different models seems irrelevant (albeit tangentially interesting).

Skaterking

Question for 88RXVERT. I to am looking to swap and I would like to buy a S5 since I currently have an 88 vert. Couldn't you use a USDM LH wiring harness instead of splice up the JDM one. And besides the splicing, what else was hard about the wiring?