Burks

Here's the details

Car - 1987 Turbo II

history - rebuild 75k miles ago by mazda dealer in TX, turbo rebuild, transmission rebuild. car was ran daily, current oil changes. He let this car sit in his garage for 7 Months


i bought this car a week ago w/o engine running. the previous owner was in a parking lot, his clutch went out, so he got it towed home to his garage, he bought a new Throw Out bearing, and it took him a month or so to install. after the month or so went by, he finally finished, and went to crank the car, and the engine wouldn't turn over. no clicking from the starter, nothing. we had a brand new battery in it the other day, and all the accessories come on fine, it seems like all the electrical is working fine. He let this car sit in his garage for 7 Months, and was planning to figure out why it wont start but never did anything, so the last time this thing ran was maybe Early/Mid August?



Transmission Install : Maybe horrible transmission install? the car won't turn over if the clutch can't engage?

Engine: maybe something is going on in the engine? seals stuck? i haven't tried the 19mm on the eccentric shaft yet, as i have no tools right now (just moved into new house)

If eccentric shaft rotates, that means the engine would atleast try to turn over?

Starter: bad starter? no clicking maybe starter went bad, at a bad time?


I'm new to the Rotary, doesn't sound like "Carbon Lock", don't really feel like putting ATF in my engine like some locals are telling me to.

I really just need some information on what to look for, how to check for it, where to look. i've read some of the things AaronCake.net has said, and will probably treat this as an "Improper Storage" and do all the steps he as mentioned. But it just sounds to me like a Faulty Transmission Install, or Starter. Would be nice to here some of the communities thoughts.


I've also searched a good bit on Carbon Lock, engine troubles, nothing really meets all the problems i'm experiencing. i guess it would help if i bought a tool set and tried to rotate that eccentric shaft huh?

my first fc

iTrader: (1)

good thing u didnt do the aft trick, u probably need a new starter, pull it out and have ur auto store test it for u

http://www.aaroncake.net/rx-7/atftrick.htm

Burks

yeah the atf trick isn't near the direction i want to go lol

my first fc

iTrader: (1)

yeah i almost did it to, but then i stumbled across that page

importtuner137

There's something wrong with the starter, or the way the starter is wired up. If there's no click the engine isn't the problem because nothing is trying to turn it.

Burks

so i put an 19MM on the end of the Main Pulley bolt leading to the eccentric shaft and tried rotating in both directions, i'd crank it clock wise and hear a kind of click/budge tap, and then crank it counter clock wise and hear nothing, this happened about 20 times. i think i got the eccentric shaft to budge a TAD clock wise, it felt like it barely moved and that's it. I don't think an apex seal is stuck, but maybe some goop oil and carbon build up instead.

What if i put conventional oil inside the top 2 spark plug sockets, and in the main spout and tried lubing it up that way while i'm trying to rock it free? But i guess if it's carbon, then i'll just flop around and destroy the housing/rotor.

should i keep trying to rock it free? or maybe try Carb Cleaner/ATF?


Remember this car was in tip top running shape, transmission needed new Throw out Bearing, after a month of uninstalling/installing new one, and to turn the key on and engine be locked, that leads me to think that a seal isn't stuck.

misterstyx69

iTrader: (142)

check the Wiring Harness on the driver's side.Under the oil filter,There is a "bracket Type" ground that attached onto the Biggest Starter bolt.The bolt runs through the hole in that bracket and secures to the rear of the engine.That ground is Important.If not hooked up you may not Get anything or hardly any power to roll the engine over.Sometimes In order to Find a Good Path to get power to the starter,it will use anything Metallic to make continuity..like a Steel braided Clutch hose, and use it as a conductor.Result is it will melt the Clutch hose.
Check that out.also make sure the Wires are Hooked up Correctly to the starter and the solenoid,(spade connector used as 12volt switched,Key turned to start,gives 12 volts to Starter to roll engine over.) that wire NOT hooked up will prevent you from starting.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Check power at starter and check the smaller wire for +12v when keying to start. Either the starter is seized, wired wrong, engine is seized or a combo.

Burks

starter is good, got the engine to turn over by rocking forward/back and then 19mm on eccentric shaft, car still won't start but engine is turning, i smell fuel, but the fuel pump isnt making a "bzz" sound


where is the fuel pump fuse?

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

If it's stock then you probably won't hear it. If the engine was 'seized' like that, you likely have little to no compression on a few faces. I'd compression check it before doing anything else.

Burks

So even if i open The trunk, remove all carpet, and have a friend turn the key on to accessory, i wouldn't hear a "click" or steady "bzz" sound at all?

we took the plate off the fuel pump, and listened and nothing happened.


I'm thinking that it might not be getting spark, the engine turns over really nice and smooth, and there is no sounds like a loose apex seal, or anything that could have broke free.

I'll try to find a compression tester, and i'll probably siphon all the old gas, and put in some new, do an oil change, and clean up the spark plug sockets of excess oil, and stuff, and see if that works.

I really don't think the fuel pump is engaging at all, it looks like it hasn't been replaced ever. in all the documents from first owner, and second owner, out of all the things replaced, this wasn't listed.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Get the multimeter and check power back there, that'll help you out right away. Then try to jumper the fuel pump test connector and see if you get power. Most of the time the only sound you'll hear is the 'running water' kind of sound. Spark is easy to test as well, put a plug on a wire and set it on the strut tower and watch.

Though, spark & fuel kind of leads me to check fuses. MOTOR (dash) and EGI fuses (under hood)

Burks

checked both Fuses, and both are fine.

i tried to start it one more time before bed, and now i smell gas really strong (maybe flooded)

I'm probably going to need to drain the oil, and get rid of the flooded gas before i do anything else. The engine still turns over really nice, and has a steady turn.

ALSO, i've been using a 400 ish cold cranking amp battery off my Honda Civic, could this have anything to do with it? i'm pretty sure factory batteries are 550, maybe my battery doesn't have enough to juice everything?


so drain oil, get rid of flooded gas, get new battery, try again with fresh oil?

Fuses are fine, fuel has to be pumping through the fuel pump to smell gas that strong right?

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

oooooh, this sounds EXACTLY like the problem I had.

The big *** main ground for the starter is, from the factory, attached to the chassis of the car. If you're laying under the bellhousing, feet facing toward the front of the car, the ground will be bolted to a suspension component to your left...You'll see what I'm talking about. Unbolt it, and move that ground to the front side of the starter. That big long bolt that goes thru the starter, thru the block? There's where it needs to be. Problem solved.

Burks

I just put in new spark plugs (NGK R BUR9EQ TRAILING, and NGK R BUR7EQ LEADING) and put in a brand new battery. i triple checked to make sure my L1/L2, T1/T2 wires are plugged into where they are suppose to go, and got in car to try to start. No luck, i also unbolted the Fuel Pump plate, and had a friend turn the car to accessory, listened for fuel pump to kick on, and heard absolutely no noise. should my next step be getting a new fuel pump? even with bad compression wouldn't the engine start and die?

How can i tell if something is loose in the engine? Also, the fuel pump looks like it's been the same fuel pump since 1987, so i'm leaning toward replacing fuel pump. and it's been sitting for 7mo, in nappy fuel.

Any other ideas?

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

I'm not sure why you'd want to start replacing things without actually checking them. As I said before, get a multimeter back there and actually check that there's power. Take one of the old plugs and use it to check for spark. Depending upon how bad the compression is it could never start. Make sure what you're replacing is actually bad before you replace it.

Check Spark
check voltage @ fuel pump (jumper the test connector and leave it on even when trying to start it)
Do a poor mans compression check if the above are fine.

It doesn't seem like you've actually done any of the ones I've already given.

HAILERS

Hello. Fuel pumps on RX do NOT run by putting the key to ACC or ON alone. Read those words once more. Then again.

The fuel pump will run if the engine is actually running.

The fuel pump will run if the engine is off, key ON and the yellow two socket fuel pump check connector is jumpered.

The fuel pump will run if the engine is off and key key is HELD to Start. Read the word HELD once more.

The fuel pump will run if the engine is off, key to ON, and the vane in the afm is pushed aft at least a 1/8" or more.

Did I mention the fuel pump will NOT run by just putting the key to ON? or ACC?

I'd suggest your fuel pump is working if you smelled gas. It probably ran each time you HELD the key to START.

It's unclear to me if the starter is now working and turning the engine over or if your turning it over by hand. Got me. So I won't go into anything related to the starter turning or not turning when you go to START with the KEY.

Burks

okay so i borrowed a multimeter and took interior off beside fuel pump disconnected the connector.

the female connector was facing side ways with 4 ports. first port didn't read, second port jumped from 1.0 to 17.0, third and forth port didn't read.

i'm getting spark, compression test will be later tonight.

Should i be getting a steady reading of a single number? and should it be on all 4 ports not just one?

I'm not real sure what you mean by Jumper the test connector, unless you mean hook it up to a switch so i can manually turn it on.

psalad

Hi I have been reding through this thread and I hopr I can be of assistance to the many questions you have posed and have not had answered so far.

The Fuel check connector is a yellow connector located near the air filter box on the passenger side in the US I am in the Uk so for me it is on the drivers side. this connector when a wire is placed between the two connections and the ignition is turned on but not to crank the engine the fuel pump will run and you will hear it clearly from the back of the car and in many cases you can hear it from the engine bay whilst doing this it is a good idea to check for obvious fuel leaks. REMEMBER to remove the wire jumping the two terminals when finished.

To clear a flood it is nesassary to remove the EGI fuse located in the fuse panel near the battery, then remove each of the spark plugs and crank the engine for about 10 seconds remember to pull the EGI fuse to ensure the ecu does not pump more fuel into the combustion chambers, also so no sparks are produced because if the engine is flooded some fuel WILL come out of the spark plug holes. reinstall the plugs after cleaning and drying them, replace the EGI fuse put the plug leads back on and crank without touching the throttle if you really feel the need go no further than 1/2 the length of the throttle, else you run the risk of re flooding the engine.

This will give you the best possible chance of the engine starting if comression is ok!

Let me know how it goes.

HAILERS

It's the large BLUE wire that will have voltage on it when the conditions are met for the pump to work.......like putting a paper clip (or piece of elect wire bare at both ends) b/t the two sockets in the Yellow, two socket, fuel pump check connector.

The large BLUE wire in the half of the fuel pump plug that is a part of the Rear harness, NOT the half of the plug connected to the fuel pump pigtail.

Location of the fuel pump check connector is in the first jpg.

Burks

okay so i checked voltage, the Female sid is getting voltage.

BUT. the Male Connector for it is broken, as i disconnected it i didn't think nothing of it, I disconnected it, checked voltage, went to plug is back up and noticed that when i plugged it in, the male connector moved the prong back, so i went to grab the back of the wire to support it and noticed that the entire wire was disconnected of the prong completely.

here are some pics

the first pic i'm holding the broken wire, between my thumb and index, is this the right connector? the pic varies a tad from your pic, but is very similar. if this isn't the right connector, then it's hidden somewhere else, cause i searched all around for anything else similar and this is the only thing i found.

also, i forgot to mention that i'm running HKS fuel de-fencer, HKS FCON, if these are having problems could they make my engine not start??











here are some random disconnected connectors i found lying around today, was just kinda curious what they go to.

Burks

typeo

is not getting voltage

psalad

Hi,

You need to get that cable that has broken off fixed but it is not the cause of a non starter it would at least fire up with this wire broken it is for a solenoid in the secondary air system.

The yellow check connector you havent found acording to your pictures, it is a two prong female connector that is not connected to anything it is behind the airbox between the passenger strut tower and the engine normally you have to dig about for it as it tends to get lost in the whole mess of wires and pipes that are arround this area.

The yellow maybe white looking six pole connector on the passenger strut tower is NOT for checking the fuel pump do NOT short any connections on this connector

On the other side the Green connectors you photographed on the drivers side are the check and initial set couplers. shorting the initial set coupler will put the engine in set up mode used for setting timing and idle speed. The other connector that is six way female is for getting the fault codes out of the ECU there are a ton of write ups on this site on how to do this procedure just do a quick search for "Reading ECU Trouble codes"

Burks

ok, I took the air box off, and it laid under it, hidden in a black cover. I Tested voltage and it read 25.4 steady.





here is another random thing i found, it was just laying down close to the turbo shield, no idea where it hooks up too.

psalad

25.4v are you sure? the car only has a 12v battery on it. did you mean 2.54? was this with the igniton on but not to cranking? this is the coupler you need to attatch a link across to start the fuel pump with out the engine needig to be rotating. place a link across the coupler and turn the ignition to the last position before cranking and you should be able to hear the fuel pump running if not then check the voltage at the fuel pump connector in the trunk.