T04 Hybrid when do you see full boost?
10-28-03, 12:52 AM
#78
I wish I was driving!
The stock IC flow is not questionable; the core has been proven to support over 400 hp to the tires when it had tanks welded around it and converted to run as an air-to-water by BDC.
I have set up a hybrid using the stock S5 exhaust side and seen full boost 16psi) by 3600 rpm during a 3rd gear dyno run with the stock intercooler. Moving from the stock intercooler to a Greddy front mount produced no change in spool-up time.
The stock IC is not the problem here.
I have set up a hybrid using the stock S5 exhaust side and seen full boost 16psi) by 3600 rpm during a 3rd gear dyno run with the stock intercooler. Moving from the stock intercooler to a Greddy front mount produced no change in spool-up time.
The stock IC is not the problem here.
10-28-03, 03:05 AM
#79
I rounded off all the leading edges on the Throttle Body (TB) face so that they looked like a subsonic airfoil- smooth rounded shape.
Ported the TB face for a more gradual approach to throttle plates (have to be careful here as there are coolant passages behind the face.)
Match ported the TB face to the intake TB elbow and polished the face.
Did not remove the throttle plates so that I could grind the throttle shaft smoother and setscrew the plates on (so bolt heads do not protrude), but may do this now, as everything else I did had so much affect.
Then portmatched the rear of the TB to the Upper Intake Manifold (UIM) and ported the rear section of the TB between the throttle plates so that it was like the rear of an airfoil- sloping gradually to a sharp point.
I used the 3rd gen UIM so this is where the 2nd set of 2ndary throttle plate are, but in the 2nd gen they are in the TB. I removed these plates and shaft, blocking the shaft hole w/ setscrews. I removed the "bridge" between the bores for the 2nd set of 2ndary plates and further smoothed it to remove all traces of that feature.
I chose the 3rd gen UIM and so reworked that to my liking, hogging out the smaller primary runners, making the bend more gradual polishing the lengths of the runners and matchporting it to fit the '89 TII Lower Intake Manifold.
The '89 TII LIM has a bolt pattern closer to the 3rd gen UIM as well as having very slightly larger runners than the '87-88 TII LIM.
Had the EGR intrusion backwelded so I could port the intrusion out of the primary runner.
Ported the boss for the middle LIM mounting bolt that protrudes into both primary runner ports just as they bend at the bottom of the manifold.
Made a weld in plug for the engine exhaust to manifold port.
Hogged out the primary runners and polished their length.
Polished the 2ndary runners their length, but went back and roughed under the 2ndary injectors w/ radial grooves from 80 grit.
Port matched the LIM to streetported housings.
I treated the exhaust manifolds the same way.
After having it apart after 9,000miles I was amazed at how clean and polished the intake still was! The exhaust gets a dusting of carbon, but no build-up.
Ported the TB face for a more gradual approach to throttle plates (have to be careful here as there are coolant passages behind the face.)
Match ported the TB face to the intake TB elbow and polished the face.
Did not remove the throttle plates so that I could grind the throttle shaft smoother and setscrew the plates on (so bolt heads do not protrude), but may do this now, as everything else I did had so much affect.
Then portmatched the rear of the TB to the Upper Intake Manifold (UIM) and ported the rear section of the TB between the throttle plates so that it was like the rear of an airfoil- sloping gradually to a sharp point.
I used the 3rd gen UIM so this is where the 2nd set of 2ndary throttle plate are, but in the 2nd gen they are in the TB. I removed these plates and shaft, blocking the shaft hole w/ setscrews. I removed the "bridge" between the bores for the 2nd set of 2ndary plates and further smoothed it to remove all traces of that feature.
I chose the 3rd gen UIM and so reworked that to my liking, hogging out the smaller primary runners, making the bend more gradual polishing the lengths of the runners and matchporting it to fit the '89 TII Lower Intake Manifold.
The '89 TII LIM has a bolt pattern closer to the 3rd gen UIM as well as having very slightly larger runners than the '87-88 TII LIM.
Had the EGR intrusion backwelded so I could port the intrusion out of the primary runner.
Ported the boss for the middle LIM mounting bolt that protrudes into both primary runner ports just as they bend at the bottom of the manifold.
Made a weld in plug for the engine exhaust to manifold port.
Hogged out the primary runners and polished their length.
Polished the 2ndary runners their length, but went back and roughed under the 2ndary injectors w/ radial grooves from 80 grit.
Port matched the LIM to streetported housings.
I treated the exhaust manifolds the same way.
After having it apart after 9,000miles I was amazed at how clean and polished the intake still was! The exhaust gets a dusting of carbon, but no build-up.
10-28-03, 03:21 AM
#80
The stock IC flow is not questionable; the core has been proven to support over 400 hp to the tires when it had tanks welded around it and converted to run as an air-to-water by BDC.
I do not doubt the core, but rather the 1 3/4" piping for inlet and 2" outlet. Are you sure BDC did not modify the inlet/ outlet?
I have set up a hybrid using the stock S5 exhaust side and seen full boost 16psi) by 3600 rpm during a 3rd gear dyno run with the stock intercooler. Moving from the stock intercooler to a Greddy front mount produced no change in spool-up time.
Hmm, no improvement on spool-up w/ larger IC and piping. Certainly doesn't sound like my theory of intake restriction is the explination for this lag
I do not doubt the core, but rather the 1 3/4" piping for inlet and 2" outlet. Are you sure BDC did not modify the inlet/ outlet?
I have set up a hybrid using the stock S5 exhaust side and seen full boost 16psi) by 3600 rpm during a 3rd gear dyno run with the stock intercooler. Moving from the stock intercooler to a Greddy front mount produced no change in spool-up time.
Hmm, no improvement on spool-up w/ larger IC and piping. Certainly doesn't sound like my theory of intake restriction is the explination for this lag
10-28-03, 05:17 AM
#81
Back from teh deadly!
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Originally posted by BLUE TII
The stock IC flow is not questionable; the core has been proven to support over 400 hp to the tires when it had tanks welded around it and converted to run as an air-to-water by BDC.
I do not doubt the core, but rather the 1 3/4" piping for inlet and 2" outlet. Are you sure BDC did not modify the inlet/ outlet?
I have set up a hybrid using the stock S5 exhaust side and seen full boost 16psi) by 3600 rpm during a 3rd gear dyno run with the stock intercooler. Moving from the stock intercooler to a Greddy front mount produced no change in spool-up time.
Hmm, no improvement on spool-up w/ larger IC and piping. Certainly doesn't sound like my theory of intake restriction is the explination for this lag
The stock IC flow is not questionable; the core has been proven to support over 400 hp to the tires when it had tanks welded around it and converted to run as an air-to-water by BDC.
I do not doubt the core, but rather the 1 3/4" piping for inlet and 2" outlet. Are you sure BDC did not modify the inlet/ outlet?
I have set up a hybrid using the stock S5 exhaust side and seen full boost 16psi) by 3600 rpm during a 3rd gear dyno run with the stock intercooler. Moving from the stock intercooler to a Greddy front mount produced no change in spool-up time.
Hmm, no improvement on spool-up w/ larger IC and piping. Certainly doesn't sound like my theory of intake restriction is the explination for this lag
Yeah...You can take a look at BDC's pictures for yourself if you dont believe it. Pretty impressive.
10-28-03, 12:29 PM
#82
I wish I was driving!
I do not doubt the core, but rather the 1 3/4" piping for inlet and 2" outlet. Are you sure BDC did not modify the inlet/ outlet?
Hmm, no improvement on spool-up w/ larger IC and piping. Certainly doesn't sound like my theory of intake restriction is the explination for this lag
I was disappointed that lag time was not improved... given, of course, it was a Greddy FMIC, so not the most optimum set-up for flow, but I had still expected at least a bit better than stock.
Needless to say, it certainly changed my opinion on the flow of the stock intercooler.
Hmm, no improvement on spool-up w/ larger IC and piping. Certainly doesn't sound like my theory of intake restriction is the explination for this lag
I was disappointed that lag time was not improved... given, of course, it was a Greddy FMIC, so not the most optimum set-up for flow, but I had still expected at least a bit better than stock.
Needless to say, it certainly changed my opinion on the flow of the stock intercooler.
10-28-03, 12:58 PM
#83
Hybrid Boosting Woes
I think you guys having a laggy boost problem with your Hybrids may have a problem simular to my buddy DCEE. If you follow his post on boost creep, (I suggested how he fixed it 
) https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hreadid=155100 you'll find later he had a problem being able to raise boost. You might have the same problem of your wastegate actuator not having enough spring tension to keep the gate closed for spool up. It sounds as though your trying to boost with it wide open. I understand that you looked at it and it appears to work properly, but MAYBE the wastegate cant hold the exhaust pressure and is opening prematurly. Just a theory of mine. have you tried wiring the wastegate SHUT??
~Mike..............
) https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hreadid=155100 you'll find later he had a problem being able to raise boost. You might have the same problem of your wastegate actuator not having enough spring tension to keep the gate closed for spool up. It sounds as though your trying to boost with it wide open. I understand that you looked at it and it appears to work properly, but MAYBE the wastegate cant hold the exhaust pressure and is opening prematurly. Just a theory of mine. have you tried wiring the wastegate SHUT??~Mike..............
10-28-03, 05:23 PM
#85
Lives on the Forum
Interesting thread...
This might make for more interesting reading. I'm tuning a Kouki turbo with Haltech E6K, but it's running a Zenki 13BT - but, it does have a Kouki turbine with a comp upgrade (V-trim at least) - are you confused yet? We get full boost easily before 4kRPM. We're only going with the unmolested wastegate spring (7psi), and it just plain flies for 7psi. We're going to turn the boost up to 14psi, and try and tune the Haltech at the same time. The car will get scary - the owner is already seriously worried about how much faster it'll go.
-Ted
This might make for more interesting reading. I'm tuning a Kouki turbo with Haltech E6K, but it's running a Zenki 13BT - but, it does have a Kouki turbine with a comp upgrade (V-trim at least) - are you confused yet? We get full boost easily before 4kRPM. We're only going with the unmolested wastegate spring (7psi), and it just plain flies for 7psi. We're going to turn the boost up to 14psi, and try and tune the Haltech at the same time. The car will get scary - the owner is already seriously worried about how much faster it'll go.
-Ted
10-29-03, 09:03 PM
#87
Ted, is that in modified stock compressor housing or T04B compressor housing?
V- trim would be 3 sizes smaller than 60-1. A much better match for stock exhaust side though!
It makes sense that these smaller compressors should spool fast, but 7psi before 4,000rpm would be laggy wouldn't it? Is that on stock exhaust system?
V- trim would be 3 sizes smaller than 60-1. A much better match for stock exhaust side though!
It makes sense that these smaller compressors should spool fast, but 7psi before 4,000rpm would be laggy wouldn't it? Is that on stock exhaust system?
10-29-03, 09:40 PM
#88
Lives on the Forum
This car is stock IC - we're monitoring air temps through the Haltech, and it's fine. Granted, CZ is just above freezing right now, but I was surprised the heat that wasn't generated. We've seen temps hit 125F at the most, and we were going a good 140mph at that point. The IC does cool down quick, but it's probably the cold ambients.
Sorry, I thought it was a V-trim, but it's actually an H-trim. It's in a bored out stock compressor housing. The turbo was actually built by BNR, but it got fucked when the guys tried to take it apart (for some odd reason) - they did something wrong, and it was shrieking before I fixed it. I tore it down and reassembled it, and it seems to run fine now. It was originally a full Zenki turbo with a modified wastegate, but I swapped it for the Kouki turbine and ported wastegate - pics and How To on the Kouki wastegate porting is posted on my website.
I know I said 4kRPM, but we're too busy watching the Haltech display on the laptop and keeping an eagle eye on the EGT gauge, rather than the boost gauge. I'm sure it does full 7psi by 3,500RPM easy.
-Ted
Sorry, I thought it was a V-trim, but it's actually an H-trim. It's in a bored out stock compressor housing. The turbo was actually built by BNR, but it got fucked when the guys tried to take it apart (for some odd reason) - they did something wrong, and it was shrieking before I fixed it. I tore it down and reassembled it, and it seems to run fine now. It was originally a full Zenki turbo with a modified wastegate, but I swapped it for the Kouki turbine and ported wastegate - pics and How To on the Kouki wastegate porting is posted on my website.
I know I said 4kRPM, but we're too busy watching the Haltech display on the laptop and keeping an eagle eye on the EGT gauge, rather than the boost gauge. I'm sure it does full 7psi by 3,500RPM easy.
-Ted
10-29-03, 11:13 PM
#89
I also had my Stock TMIC on my car with my turbo and it ran fine, I only had it on there for about a week worth but only boosting a few lbs (breaking in engine and all) and it would spool "mad quick YO!" 
but seriously I think Blue TII 's theory is sound but wouldn't hinder the spool that much! Granted it would but not that devistating amount.
but seriously I think Blue TII 's theory is sound but wouldn't hinder the spool that much! Granted it would but not that devistating amount.
11-01-03, 05:59 PM
#90
Another thing I thought of for Rpeck- and this is VERY rare.
Sometimes the compressor wheel is not tightened well against the shaft "quill' and the compressor actually slips on the shaft. Slow spool.
There may be more of a chance for such problem using the stock shaft and nut but a compressor wheel off another turbo?
Or, more of a chance of it happening if the BOV is too small so you have the force of the inertia of the exhaust turbine and shaft working against the big compressor wheel's drag as it quickly slows.
Don't know how you would test this w/ out taking off the downpipe and turbo inlet pipe and trying to turn the wheels against eachother...
Just throwing ideas out there...
Sometimes the compressor wheel is not tightened well against the shaft "quill' and the compressor actually slips on the shaft. Slow spool.
There may be more of a chance for such problem using the stock shaft and nut but a compressor wheel off another turbo?
Or, more of a chance of it happening if the BOV is too small so you have the force of the inertia of the exhaust turbine and shaft working against the big compressor wheel's drag as it quickly slows.
Don't know how you would test this w/ out taking off the downpipe and turbo inlet pipe and trying to turn the wheels against eachother...
Just throwing ideas out there...
11-04-03, 12:24 AM
#91
What R U thinking self?
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Add this one to the list
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...postid=2299557
I also got a couple private PM's from people who did not want to come out bashing until they went back over everything. I am starting to think Houston, we have a problem.
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...postid=2299557
I also got a couple private PM's from people who did not want to come out bashing until they went back over everything. I am starting to think Houston, we have a problem.
Last edited by Rpeck; 11-04-03 at 12:26 AM.
11-04-03, 12:40 AM
#92
EIT
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I can see the correlation, but until we see the dyno I wouldn't jump to anything yet. He didn't mention that boost response time was abnormally sluggish and boost leaks aren't that uncommon with FMIC with all those couplings...
11-04-03, 12:41 AM
#93
Originally posted by RETed
Interesting thread...
This might make for more interesting reading. I'm tuning a Kouki turbo with Haltech E6K, but it's running a Zenki 13BT - but, it does have a Kouki turbine with a comp upgrade (V-trim at least) - are you confused yet?
Interesting thread...
This might make for more interesting reading. I'm tuning a Kouki turbo with Haltech E6K, but it's running a Zenki 13BT - but, it does have a Kouki turbine with a comp upgrade (V-trim at least) - are you confused yet?
11-04-03, 12:43 AM
#94
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Like I mentioned I also got a couple of PM's with just about the same problem as either I am having, or the guy in the other post.. or both. These people wanted to remain nameless for the time being (they want to make sure they have no leaks 
etc. etc. ) first .. it seems to me to be the same story. I hope I am wrong, but I KNOW I have checked out everything on my car 10X over, just hoping to save someone else the time, effort, or poor desicion to begin with.
etc. etc. ) first .. it seems to me to be the same story. I hope I am wrong, but I KNOW I have checked out everything on my car 10X over, just hoping to save someone else the time, effort, or poor desicion to begin with.
11-04-03, 12:47 AM
#95
Originally posted by Rpeck
Like I mentioned I also got a couple of PM's with just about the same problem as either I am having, or the guy in the other post.. or both. These people wanted to remain nameless for the time being
Like I mentioned I also got a couple of PM's with just about the same problem as either I am having, or the guy in the other post.. or both. These people wanted to remain nameless for the time being
11-04-03, 12:56 AM
#96
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Hey im not full on bashing 'yet' but, I would shy away from the stage 3 for the time being.. I have not seen one person on this forum come out and defend it. Noone has said "**** i have the stage 3 and it's perfect" BLUE had goodluck with his stage 4 so far ... but thats a whole nother breed, he had to do ALOT of custom fabrication to get that the way he wanted it.
I also got a couple of PM's from people who said they got theirs with **** poor packaging, and/or metal shavings all over the inside, or the wastegate was done incorectly. If I was to do it over again (and I will, if the FMIC is no help) I would shop elsewhere, that's just my opinion from what I know now.
-Robert
P.S. If this turns out to be an error on my part (I can in no way forsee that being the case at this point) I will be the first one to let you all know, and I will openly appologize.
I also got a couple of PM's from people who said they got theirs with **** poor packaging, and/or metal shavings all over the inside, or the wastegate was done incorectly. If I was to do it over again (and I will, if the FMIC is no help) I would shop elsewhere, that's just my opinion from what I know now.
-Robert
P.S. If this turns out to be an error on my part (I can in no way forsee that being the case at this point) I will be the first one to let you all know, and I will openly appologize.
Last edited by Rpeck; 11-04-03 at 12:58 AM.
11-04-03, 12:58 AM
#97
I wish I was driving!
Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
Everyone would be half as confused if you didnt use those stupid kouki, and zenki terms. It reminds me of a kid in elementry who loved to add pointless words to sentences in an effort to sound more knowledgable, What's wrong with S4, amd S5?
Everyone would be half as confused if you didnt use those stupid kouki, and zenki terms. It reminds me of a kid in elementry who loved to add pointless words to sentences in an effort to sound more knowledgable, What's wrong with S4, amd S5?
The terms are not that hard to follow. Even monkeys can remember two designations
. I think you should be thankful of the help Ted provides rather than knock the simplistic language he uses.What Ted said for the american-only lingo:
I am running a haltech on an S4 turbo 4 port block. The turbocharger is an S5 exhaust side with a compressor wheel upgrade.
Last edited by scathcart; 11-04-03 at 01:01 AM.
11-04-03, 12:19 PM
#99
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Get a MBC with a vent in it, no bigger than .020 or you will get spikes and unstable pressure levels. on the wastegate side, then use a restricter to make the pressure come on slower, and thus make your spool up faster.
11-04-03, 12:29 PM
#100
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Originally posted by GLHS
Get a MBC with a vent in it, no bigger than .020 or you will get spikes and unstable pressure levels. on the wastegate side, then use a restricter to make the pressure come on slower, and thus make your spool up faster.
Get a MBC with a vent in it, no bigger than .020 or you will get spikes and unstable pressure levels. on the wastegate side, then use a restricter to make the pressure come on slower, and thus make your spool up faster.