Suspension UpgradeQuestion
08-20-09, 01:02 PM
#1
Suspension UpgradeQuestion
so this upcoming school year I am going to finally do a suspension upgrade to my FC, Thanks to financial aid. Ive had my car for like 3 years now and all i have is tanabe springs. . I want to get a full adjustable coilover system. I want something that is really comfortable for the streets yet really good if i go have some fun in the canyons. I will do some track very rarely but i will be using my car for that. Anyone have any insight? or recommendations? I was looking at JIC magic or Stance, and of course i am going to get the racing beat sway bars. Any information would help thanks
08-20-09, 01:24 PM
#3
^ Only thing that sucks about Tien Basics is that they don't have adjustable camber plates. I've heard good things about Stance, and they are pretty cheap. http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/pts/1328125157.html
08-20-09, 06:14 PM
#5
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I have been working on my suspension setup for the past couple of weeks. For my FC, I have thrown on a set of Megan fully adj, coilovers, racing beat front and rear sway bar with end links, and I also did a little brake work too, nothing major. Just went with power slot rotors, hawk pads, and stainless steal lines. for pics look at my profile. I had the coilovers before anything else, as they were the most expensive, I like to get those items out the way first. Anyways, I Felt a huge difference in the ride with the suspension alone. When I bought the car, the guy had some no-name aftermarket spring with stock struts and shocks. Nasty!!!! My only experience is with megan and it has been a positive one, so I recommend megan as well
Last edited by D0ct0r7; 08-20-09 at 06:37 PM.
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08-21-09, 03:36 AM
#8
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08-21-09, 03:55 AM
#9
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http://www.iscracing.net/2nd_Gen_Parts.htm
You wont be dissapointed.
before people start saying "Omg no adjustable damping blah blah blah" The truth of the matter is once a shock is set right...its RIGHT. Shock "adjustability" is a welcome feature if you are constantly changing spring rates, Roll rates, CG etc..or if you have a set of megans, Jics, Teins etc with cutter cutter quality control that rarely share the same damping characteristics even among the same part numbers (IE Coilover A of same part number will have different damping curves on the dyno at setting 5 than Coilover B of the same part number at the SAME setting)..then using a shock dyno you could use the adjusters to make them somewhat "even".
But if you buy the bilstein kit you can just throw it on and trust that it is RIGHT...and since Bilstein is a high quality shock they will be quite matched and suited to your chosen spring rates and application.
So now you have a "good" suspension. Its up to you as a driver to have faith and make the best of it without having to turn ***** on your shocks thinking its going to make your car handle better despite everything else now being out of whack.
Or you can go with these Koni Yellows and have a "quality" shock off the shelf also.
http://www.rx7store.net/category_s/325.htm
They already come with the adjustable perches to change ride height. All you need are camber plates and springs and you are good to go.
You wont be dissapointed.
before people start saying "Omg no adjustable damping blah blah blah" The truth of the matter is once a shock is set right...its RIGHT. Shock "adjustability" is a welcome feature if you are constantly changing spring rates, Roll rates, CG etc..or if you have a set of megans, Jics, Teins etc with cutter cutter quality control that rarely share the same damping characteristics even among the same part numbers (IE Coilover A of same part number will have different damping curves on the dyno at setting 5 than Coilover B of the same part number at the SAME setting)..then using a shock dyno you could use the adjusters to make them somewhat "even".
But if you buy the bilstein kit you can just throw it on and trust that it is RIGHT...and since Bilstein is a high quality shock they will be quite matched and suited to your chosen spring rates and application.
So now you have a "good" suspension. Its up to you as a driver to have faith and make the best of it without having to turn ***** on your shocks thinking its going to make your car handle better despite everything else now being out of whack.
Or you can go with these Koni Yellows and have a "quality" shock off the shelf also.
http://www.rx7store.net/category_s/325.htm
They already come with the adjustable perches to change ride height. All you need are camber plates and springs and you are good to go.
Last edited by Photonic; 08-21-09 at 04:07 AM.
08-21-09, 07:18 AM
#10
Eibachs and konis
In my experience, no coil over system is good for the street - and if you use them that way, you'll have to replace them in a couple of years. They wear out quickly.
This spring I put eibach springs and koni yellows on my convertible. The car is reasonably comfortable (better than stock because the pickup on the eibachs is softer than stock) and can handle any mountain back road around here. In fact, the set up is so good that the car is kinda boring to drive unless you are outrageously over the speed limit, which if course, I would never do.
This spring I put eibach springs and koni yellows on my convertible. The car is reasonably comfortable (better than stock because the pickup on the eibachs is softer than stock) and can handle any mountain back road around here. In fact, the set up is so good that the car is kinda boring to drive unless you are outrageously over the speed limit, which if course, I would never do.
08-21-09, 07:24 AM
#11
Old Rotary Dog
Firstoff, you should probably plan to replace all the old suspension bushings, including doing the DTSS elimination. This nicest shiniest set of coilovers in the world isn't going to matter if you have a lot of slop in the system.
As for coilovers, on my track car I run the GC setup and KYB/AGX shocks/struts. They're cheap, they work, and they came on the car when I bought it
. I will probably eventually go to Koni yellows - a little more expensive but not too much and a lot of people have won a lot of races on them.
For 99% street use, I would stay away from a true track setup - you will be miserable. I am running 400f/275r springs and while they are nice on a smooth track surface, they would be too stiff for a rough surface like the public roads. Remember: stiffer does not mean better. Get some good progressive rate springs (or some softer linear ones) and you'll be much happier.
In fact, unless you are going to go to the expense of corner balancing the car (and doing so everytime you have it aligned), I would avoid the whole coil-over mess and just go with a good set of springs (Racing Beat's package comes to mind) and shocks/struts and be done with it. Spend the extra money on gas so you can go out and drive more. Save up for a track weekend.
Good luck,
-b
As for coilovers, on my track car I run the GC setup and KYB/AGX shocks/struts. They're cheap, they work, and they came on the car when I bought it
. I will probably eventually go to Koni yellows - a little more expensive but not too much and a lot of people have won a lot of races on them.For 99% street use, I would stay away from a true track setup - you will be miserable. I am running 400f/275r springs and while they are nice on a smooth track surface, they would be too stiff for a rough surface like the public roads. Remember: stiffer does not mean better. Get some good progressive rate springs (or some softer linear ones) and you'll be much happier.
In fact, unless you are going to go to the expense of corner balancing the car (and doing so everytime you have it aligned), I would avoid the whole coil-over mess and just go with a good set of springs (Racing Beat's package comes to mind) and shocks/struts and be done with it. Spend the extra money on gas so you can go out and drive more. Save up for a track weekend.
Good luck,
-b
08-21-09, 08:45 AM
#12
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before people start saying "Omg no adjustable damping blah blah blah" The truth of the matter is once a shock is set right...its RIGHT. Shock "adjustability" is a welcome feature if you are constantly changing spring rates, Roll rates, CG etc..or if you have a set of megans, Jics, Teins etc with cutter cutter quality control that rarely share the same damping characteristics even among the same part numbers (IE Coilover A of same part number will have different damping curves on the dyno at setting 5 than Coilover B of the same part number at the SAME setting)..then using a shock dyno you could use the adjusters to make them somewhat "even".
But if you buy the bilstein kit you can just throw it on and trust that it is RIGHT...and since Bilstein is a high quality shock they will be quite matched and suited to your chosen spring rates and application.
Anyways, just trowing on shocks/coil-overs is the worst start you can make. Each and every single shock is different (and will change over time). So you have to dyno them, and do so evey now and then. If they are adjustable, fine tune them as close as possible, if not, try to get more closely matched shocks from the manufacturer.
Riz.
08-21-09, 09:13 PM
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I somewhat agree with you. Yes, there will be difference in each of the coil-overs, and yes, adjustability is hand when you want to ehhh... adjust. ( Right, And the problem with most people is they don't realize adjusting shocks by themselves to "Make the car handle differently" Is only throwing everything else off balance. A suspension is a coordinated orchestra, if you change the tune of the shocks without changing the tune of the other instruments the whole orchestra now sounds bad..dispite how you might THINK "your" instrument sounds But also if you want to adjust only once and pretty much leave it it's a nice feature. Not every FC is the same, not every driver is the same, and not every situation (for street asfalt quality) is the same. Some peoples FC's weigh hundreds of kilo's less then other peoples FC's. (Of course. This is why you choose the SPRING RATES for your cars weight and application, the shocks are then chosen to suit the SPRINGS. You do not change shocks 'By them selves" to make the car handle differently..you choose new springs and adjust your shocks to suit those new springs if you want to change handling.)
08-22-09, 11:05 AM
#16
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^^ I completely agree with you Photonic. You're first 'edit' seems obvius to me, I'm sorry if someone doesn't know/uderstand that. Your second edit is also clear to me. However I would go for the correct spring rate, then get a coil-over shock valved. This way you can adjust your shock with the correct range (softer/harder), and can interchange springs with different rates. More adjustability!
Riz.
Riz.
08-23-09, 05:17 PM
#18
okay i am new to the suspension area
so what exactly do camber plates do? how do they compliment the handling of the car?
any downfall to stance coilovers?
what is adjustable damping mean?
if the spring rate is stiffer what does it do the the characteristics of the car? the softer?
okay this is what i want. I want a whole suspension package where its just get it out of the box and install. I do want it so i can adjust different characteristics of the suspension while already installed in the car. But i only want to mess with it until i find a set up i like and i can drive everyday with while still being able to say hey my FC feels like taking some rigorous turns. i am pretty sure i am going to buy the racing front & rear sway bar + endlinks. + i will have cusco front and rear strut tower braces.
please do not answer my questions if you are going to put me down for my lack of knowledge don't waste my time
so what exactly do camber plates do? how do they compliment the handling of the car?
any downfall to stance coilovers?
what is adjustable damping mean?
if the spring rate is stiffer what does it do the the characteristics of the car? the softer?
okay this is what i want. I want a whole suspension package where its just get it out of the box and install. I do want it so i can adjust different characteristics of the suspension while already installed in the car. But i only want to mess with it until i find a set up i like and i can drive everyday with while still being able to say hey my FC feels like taking some rigorous turns. i am pretty sure i am going to buy the racing front & rear sway bar + endlinks. + i will have cusco front and rear strut tower braces.
please do not answer my questions if you are going to put me down for my lack of knowledge don't waste my time
08-23-09, 08:46 PM
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Yes, I would advise against buying any unnecessary parts for your car until you can truly afford them. Put your spare money in a money market account until you graduate. Once you are established in your new career you should start funding a 401k and/or IRA, and you can buy a few unnecessary things here and there if it makes you happy. However, now is not the time to waste your money. That is my insight and recommendation.
I think you don't realize the complexity of what you are asking. It would be like asking on the internet forums for an explanation of the function of various surgical instruments, expecting to go out and perform brain surgery, and then getting angry when somebody tells you that you lack the knowledge to perform the task.
I think you don't realize the complexity of what you are asking. It would be like asking on the internet forums for an explanation of the function of various surgical instruments, expecting to go out and perform brain surgery, and then getting angry when somebody tells you that you lack the knowledge to perform the task.
08-24-09, 02:40 AM
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okay i am new to the suspension area
so what exactly do camber plates do? how do they compliment the handling of the car?
Camber plates allow you to precisely adjust your camber on the fly by your self. It is a plate that mounts to your shock tower, and bolts to the shock it self. By adjusting the bolts on the camber plate you can slide the shock in or out effectively changing camber. Camber is the angle of the wheel bottom in or out. The top of the wheel angled in and the bottom out is negative camber, negative camber increases cornering performance because as the tire rolls over during cornering it actually gains traction, too much negative camber can decrease straight line stability and wear the insides of your tires. Positive camber is not useful at all unless in some drag racing applications (Positive camber on a soft suspension drag car would allow the car to "Squat" and the tire to flatten out)
any downfall to stance coilovers?
Stance is a good coilover.
what is adjustable damping mean?
A shock is more properly called a "damper". Shock is a misnomer because the springs are actually the device which absorbs "shock". The "damper" (shocks) job is to release the stored energy in the spring. Its like this, Springs absorb the shock but without a "damper" the springs would just bounce continuously until the energy that compressed them was used up. IE you go over a bump, the car would just bounce up and down for a long period of time. A "shock" takes that energy out of the spring by preventing the spring from moving too much. Adjustable damping allows you change how much or how little the "shock" dampens spring movement.
if the spring rate is stiffer what does it do the the characteristics of the car? the softer?
A stiffer spring will take more force to compress it. This means the car will "roll" less on that end of the car during cornering, and less weight will be transferred to that end of the car under braking or acceleration. Spring rates are measured in KG/MM or LB/IN. For example if you have a spring rate of 8KG/mm it takes 8KG to compress the spring one millimeter. A softer spring will soak up bumps and be more comfortable, a stiffer spring in general will keep the tire firmly planted for better grip..I suggest you study and research the concept of "dynamic weight transfer"
http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handlin...ling_weightxfr
^ This article contradicts my theory that spring rates/shocks cannot effect the amount of weight transfer but I tend to disagree...based on reading a lot more sources...a stiffer car that rolls less would transfer the same weight horizontally across the roll centers of the car and CG but would lessen the mechanical down force on the tire from squat and dive but thats another discussion...just research...read read read
okay this is what i want. I want a whole suspension package where its just get it out of the box and install. I do want it so i can adjust different characteristics of the suspension while already installed in the car. But i only want to mess with it until i find a set up i like and i can drive everyday with while still being able to say hey my FC feels like taking some rigorous turns. i am pretty sure i am going to buy the racing front & rear sway bar + endlinks. + i will have cusco front and rear strut tower braces.
Adjustability is fine for you as far as alignment and ride height. (Camber plates and adjustable spring seats) But having adjustable damping too early in the game will set bad habits for you.
please do not answer my questions if you are going to put me down for my lack of knowledge don't waste my time
so what exactly do camber plates do? how do they compliment the handling of the car?
Camber plates allow you to precisely adjust your camber on the fly by your self. It is a plate that mounts to your shock tower, and bolts to the shock it self. By adjusting the bolts on the camber plate you can slide the shock in or out effectively changing camber. Camber is the angle of the wheel bottom in or out. The top of the wheel angled in and the bottom out is negative camber, negative camber increases cornering performance because as the tire rolls over during cornering it actually gains traction, too much negative camber can decrease straight line stability and wear the insides of your tires. Positive camber is not useful at all unless in some drag racing applications (Positive camber on a soft suspension drag car would allow the car to "Squat" and the tire to flatten out)
any downfall to stance coilovers?
Stance is a good coilover.
what is adjustable damping mean?
A shock is more properly called a "damper". Shock is a misnomer because the springs are actually the device which absorbs "shock". The "damper" (shocks) job is to release the stored energy in the spring. Its like this, Springs absorb the shock but without a "damper" the springs would just bounce continuously until the energy that compressed them was used up. IE you go over a bump, the car would just bounce up and down for a long period of time. A "shock" takes that energy out of the spring by preventing the spring from moving too much. Adjustable damping allows you change how much or how little the "shock" dampens spring movement.
if the spring rate is stiffer what does it do the the characteristics of the car? the softer?
A stiffer spring will take more force to compress it. This means the car will "roll" less on that end of the car during cornering, and less weight will be transferred to that end of the car under braking or acceleration. Spring rates are measured in KG/MM or LB/IN. For example if you have a spring rate of 8KG/mm it takes 8KG to compress the spring one millimeter. A softer spring will soak up bumps and be more comfortable, a stiffer spring in general will keep the tire firmly planted for better grip..I suggest you study and research the concept of "dynamic weight transfer"
http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handlin...ling_weightxfr
^ This article contradicts my theory that spring rates/shocks cannot effect the amount of weight transfer but I tend to disagree...based on reading a lot more sources...a stiffer car that rolls less would transfer the same weight horizontally across the roll centers of the car and CG but would lessen the mechanical down force on the tire from squat and dive but thats another discussion...just research...read read read
okay this is what i want. I want a whole suspension package where its just get it out of the box and install. I do want it so i can adjust different characteristics of the suspension while already installed in the car. But i only want to mess with it until i find a set up i like and i can drive everyday with while still being able to say hey my FC feels like taking some rigorous turns. i am pretty sure i am going to buy the racing front & rear sway bar + endlinks. + i will have cusco front and rear strut tower braces.
Adjustability is fine for you as far as alignment and ride height. (Camber plates and adjustable spring seats) But having adjustable damping too early in the game will set bad habits for you.
please do not answer my questions if you are going to put me down for my lack of knowledge don't waste my time
Answered
Last edited by Photonic; 08-24-09 at 02:53 AM.
08-24-09, 03:18 AM
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7 and 5 is good. Thats pretty much double the stock spring rate.
8 and 6 is very popular...but I would be more inclined to do 7and 5 my self. Mainly because I like to be conservative as far as parts and setup and focus more on learning to drive the car better to get the most out of a setup before I "move up" this could take months or even years. Technicaly you could drive a stock car for years and still not be driving it to 100% of its full potential time. Thats whats so great As a driver you can always find a 10th of a second somewhere...in line..in braking...in throttle application...etc without spending a dime on upgrades! Yay cheap.
And it makes it all the more worth while when you can whoop the **** out of kids with their JIC's in the twisties with your stock *** car glued to their tail in all the braking zones.
Just ****** with ya...
weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
8 and 6 is very popular...but I would be more inclined to do 7and 5 my self. Mainly because I like to be conservative as far as parts and setup and focus more on learning to drive the car better to get the most out of a setup before I "move up" this could take months or even years. Technicaly you could drive a stock car for years and still not be driving it to 100% of its full potential time. Thats whats so great
As a driver you can always find a 10th of a second somewhere...in line..in braking...in throttle application...etc without spending a dime on upgrades! Yay cheap.And it makes it all the more worth while when you can whoop the **** out of kids with their JIC's in the twisties with your stock *** car glued to their tail in all the braking zones.
Just ****** with ya...
weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Last edited by Photonic; 08-24-09 at 03:23 AM.