supercharging na
04-07-09, 11:38 AM
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supercharging na
i dont know much about gaining horsepower but i think this would be an easy way to boost an N/A. does anyone have advice or has actually added a supercharger to your n/a. and is there anything i would need to upgrade if i added one. my car also has a rebuilt engine with less than 1k on it. also i would like to know how much hp it could add.
87 na
87 na
04-07-09, 12:06 PM
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I know there are a few threads about this and from what I recall hp will be a tad over a stock t2. Check out camden superchargers. They have a few kit options for a price though.
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04-07-09, 12:31 PM
#9
I have an s5 with the Camden kit on it... It wasn't as "bolt on" as I expected and It would almost have been just as simple to do a 6-port turbo with stock FC parts. From the butt dyno I can tell its faster but its no screamer.... It feels a little quicker than my wrx was when it was stock. I thought it would be awesome for autocross because the supercharger would have no lag and more torque but it just isn't like that... It seems to be down on power until around 2500rpm... which means to keep speed up on the autocross course you need to down shift down to 1st on corners where the rpms drop too low... not enough torque to pull you out of the corner. A stand alone and a tune could fix that but if you are going that far than you might as well go with a serious turbo setup.
I did a track day/drift event this past weekend and the setup did work to get me sideways, I could power over all day in 2nd gear... but it wasn't as nice as a turbo would have been. I didn't seem to have the ability to feather the throttle like the sr20 guys did mid-drift... but that might have been a chassis difference than a super-charger vs turbo issue.
Another issue is that the blower in the Camden set-up is that it was designed as a draw-through charger where the fuel going through it also cools the lobes of the charger... without that cooling, the charger can get really hot since all that cools it is the oil flowing through the gear drive and whatever heat is transferred through the manifold to the block. In my setup I added an alcohol/water injection set up to cool the supercharger... it has worked so far... but since the meth adds more fuel to the mix I'm sure I'm losing power from running rich but it is safe.
I did a track day/drift event this past weekend and the setup did work to get me sideways, I could power over all day in 2nd gear... but it wasn't as nice as a turbo would have been. I didn't seem to have the ability to feather the throttle like the sr20 guys did mid-drift... but that might have been a chassis difference than a super-charger vs turbo issue.
Another issue is that the blower in the Camden set-up is that it was designed as a draw-through charger where the fuel going through it also cools the lobes of the charger... without that cooling, the charger can get really hot since all that cools it is the oil flowing through the gear drive and whatever heat is transferred through the manifold to the block. In my setup I added an alcohol/water injection set up to cool the supercharger... it has worked so far... but since the meth adds more fuel to the mix I'm sure I'm losing power from running rich but it is safe.
04-07-09, 12:38 PM
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Ugh, Camden. Not gonna even go there.
Lysholm (Twin-screw) or centrifugal are about the only way to go. You'll have a HARD time finding a centrifugal that has a compressor map that's god a good efficiency curve for the 13B. I used a VS1 with (dont laugh) a BOV of sorts that would 'bleed' off extra air to allow me to get more into the efficiency range of the blower. This worked out alright, but I didn't like the lack of low-end. It was also quite pricey to fabricate mounts/intake setups/etc.
The twin-screws are fantastic, instant off the line power with very good efficiency. Problem is they're expensive as hell. Bang for the buck, go turbo. Don't even think about it if money is a concern go turbo. You'll be happier, make more power, have more torque, AND have more low-end than the camden kit will on it's best day.
You know what they say about supply and demand?
Demand is out there with the crickets
Lysholm (Twin-screw) or centrifugal are about the only way to go. You'll have a HARD time finding a centrifugal that has a compressor map that's god a good efficiency curve for the 13B. I used a VS1 with (dont laugh) a BOV of sorts that would 'bleed' off extra air to allow me to get more into the efficiency range of the blower. This worked out alright, but I didn't like the lack of low-end. It was also quite pricey to fabricate mounts/intake setups/etc.
The twin-screws are fantastic, instant off the line power with very good efficiency. Problem is they're expensive as hell. Bang for the buck, go turbo. Don't even think about it if money is a concern go turbo. You'll be happier, make more power, have more torque, AND have more low-end than the camden kit will on it's best day.
Demand is out there with the crickets
04-07-09, 12:43 PM
#13
Rotary Enthusiast
i dont know much about gaining horsepower but i think this would be an easy way to boost an N/A. does anyone have advice or has actually added a supercharger to your n/a. and is there anything i would need to upgrade if i added one. my car also has a rebuilt engine with less than 1k on it. also i would like to know how much hp it could add.
87 na
87 na
Fuel system upgrades - Stock NA won't cut it. You'll need more injector, a better fuel pump, and probably a rising rate pressure regulator.
Driveline - Clutch and PP upgrades. Even then, the NA transmission will be the weak link and prone to failure.
Engine management - The stock NA computer knows nothing about boost. To keep the mix right, you'll eventually end up with an aftermarket ECU.
That's just the basics. After that, you're going to run into nickel and dime stuff to plumb everything and hook it up. Custom pulleys and the sort will cost you a few hundred. If you can't fabricate parts or tune the engine yourself, you're going to have to pay someone else to do it.
When it's all said and done, you'll have a "unique" car that makes about the same power as a STOCK turbo II. There really is no need to reinvent the wheel. If you’re not happy with NA power, the most economical route to power is sell the NA and buy a Turbo II. If you have a mint body and you want to keep it, then a turbo swap would be the next path to follow. The turbo parts are available and there is no need to custom fab or engineer the install.
Of course if you have unlimited budget? Knock yourself out. Good luck!
04-07-09, 12:45 PM
#14
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You're going to get a lot of negative response from a post like this, basically because of the hidden costs involved. Like it was mentioned, super charging an NA is more than just slapping a compressor to the engine. Other things to consider:
Fuel system upgrades - Stock NA won't cut it. You'll need more injector, a better fuel pump, and probably a rising rate pressure regulator.
Driveline - Clutch and PP upgrades. Even then, the NA transmission will be the weak link and prone to failure.
Engine management - The stock NA computer knows nothing about boost. To keep the mix right, you'll eventually end up with an aftermarket ECU.
That's just the basics. After that, you're going to run into nickel and dime stuff to plumb everything and hook it up. Custom pulleys and the sort will cost you a few hundred. If you can't fabricate parts or tune the engine yourself, you're going to have to pay someone else to do it.
When it's all said and done, you'll have a "unique" car that makes about the same power as a STOCK turbo II. There really is no need to reinvent the wheel. If you’re not happy with NA power, the most economical route to power is sell the NA and buy a Turbo II. If you have a mint body and you want to keep it, then a turbo swap would be the next path to follow. The turbo parts are available and there is no need to custom fab or engineer the install.
Of course if you have unlimited budget? Knock yourself out. Good luck!
Fuel system upgrades - Stock NA won't cut it. You'll need more injector, a better fuel pump, and probably a rising rate pressure regulator.
Driveline - Clutch and PP upgrades. Even then, the NA transmission will be the weak link and prone to failure.
Engine management - The stock NA computer knows nothing about boost. To keep the mix right, you'll eventually end up with an aftermarket ECU.
That's just the basics. After that, you're going to run into nickel and dime stuff to plumb everything and hook it up. Custom pulleys and the sort will cost you a few hundred. If you can't fabricate parts or tune the engine yourself, you're going to have to pay someone else to do it.
When it's all said and done, you'll have a "unique" car that makes about the same power as a STOCK turbo II. There really is no need to reinvent the wheel. If you’re not happy with NA power, the most economical route to power is sell the NA and buy a Turbo II. If you have a mint body and you want to keep it, then a turbo swap would be the next path to follow. The turbo parts are available and there is no need to custom fab or engineer the install.
Of course if you have unlimited budget? Knock yourself out. Good luck!
Holy **** wozz! I havent seen you in forever! How goes it!?
/threadjack!
04-07-09, 01:10 PM
#15
Rotary Enthusiast
LOL! Yeah, I still troll around. I got a wild hair today and decided to post. I guess all that useless SC knowledge we acquired over the years makes these threads irresistible? Glad to see you're alive and well!
04-07-09, 02:21 PM
#16
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What kind of money are you expecting? I would suggest putting about $3k for a nice setup. Nothing crazy, but nice.
I would suggest getting a standalone of some type. Or, if you want to go really cheap, an SAFC-NEO off ebay.
Camden, I think i read about them back when I was looking into boost. And, their superchargers don't compress the air, it's just a blower. I think. Might be wrong. So, you definently won't see huge gains off the camden. And, i have heard others say that bang for buck, the camden isn't that good.
Twin Screw ftw.
6PI turbo would be good. I am sure there will be a lot of fabrication needed.
Drivetrain..... hmmmm, yea, might break it. But til then, I say see how much it can take. I don't think if you turbo or supercharge, you will be making that much HP. Especially if you don't plan on spending a lot. A good N/A can see almost 200 at the wheels, which is near what the TII was, and they hold up pretty well. The turbo does act different, because it slams the drivetrain with power. Large surges would probably break something. But, i don't think you will be boosting that much. I'll be going forced induction sometime, but I'll shoot for 7-8 psi.
Good luck. It will cost a lot.
I would suggest getting a standalone of some type. Or, if you want to go really cheap, an SAFC-NEO off ebay.
Camden, I think i read about them back when I was looking into boost. And, their superchargers don't compress the air, it's just a blower. I think. Might be wrong. So, you definently won't see huge gains off the camden. And, i have heard others say that bang for buck, the camden isn't that good.
Twin Screw ftw.
6PI turbo would be good. I am sure there will be a lot of fabrication needed.
Drivetrain..... hmmmm, yea, might break it. But til then, I say see how much it can take. I don't think if you turbo or supercharge, you will be making that much HP. Especially if you don't plan on spending a lot. A good N/A can see almost 200 at the wheels, which is near what the TII was, and they hold up pretty well. The turbo does act different, because it slams the drivetrain with power. Large surges would probably break something. But, i don't think you will be boosting that much. I'll be going forced induction sometime, but I'll shoot for 7-8 psi.
Good luck. It will cost a lot.
04-07-09, 02:33 PM
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I ran 400whp on the N/a drivetrain for quite some time. Aaron's been alright with his as well. There's too many 'problems' with the Camden one for me to get into again (search, anywhere you find that word I'm bound to have shown up at some point!). Typically, for the money people threw at those camden kits they could've gotten more power just porting/going standalone without it. (See CODEBLUE's car for a prime example.) Unless you're good with fab work, or find one of the Paxton kits (those are actually quite nice!), forget about that path and go turbo.
04-07-09, 02:42 PM
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Indeed. Also, if you are worried about low down power. Which is why i wanted a SC at first, just go with a smaller turbo. something that will spool a bit quicker but won't boost as high.
04-07-09, 03:45 PM
#20
well rested,buffet o food
If you have a recently rebuilt good compressioned engine. This is the route to go. Prob cost 800 ish. Japan2la makes(mods and sells) the s5 lim 4port to 6 port adapter, then you use t2 upper and such.
Aside from front cover removal for t2 (i forget what) upgrade. The swap over seems fairly simple and a cheap alternative to scharger or t2 swap.
This will be my swap when my engine goes. I will go back to the sixport after i rebuild and port it, then swap my s4 t2 necessities over.
john ny
04-08-09, 01:07 PM
#23
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I have a supercharger manifold and wide belt pulleys that I am selling. I will send you a PM with My number if you want to call and get more info or come and see it.
Joe
Joe
04-08-09, 01:11 PM
#24
I had posted this in another thread but I know a local guy who is currently installing a Vortech supercharger on an S5. He's using Atkins pullies from their supercharger kit. He is retaining all of his emissions. He is going to run an electric air pump that switches off above 2000 rpm. The unit will mount basically where the factory air pump is but a little bit higher. He's machining his own mounting bracket and the mockup so far looks pretty neat.
I'm still not clear on what else he's doing but he did mention a fuel pump. I think a 3rd gen one as knowing him he's probably got one lying around from his old car. I think he also mentioned a rising rate fpr and new injectors although I hope he's not going to solely rely on them alone. He had also mentioned methanol although I'm not entirely sure about that nor am I sure about an intercooler. I also don't know about his ecu choice but am curious if he could use a TII Rtek to control it. When I see him again I'll try to get more info.
I do know about what he's got into it so far though. I think he bought the sc for $650 or so online. Atkins wants $300 for their pulleys. I don't know what he paid for his airpump (or if he made it work or not) or random parts. If he needs injectors, and fpr, an ecu solution, etc, the price could jump up towards the $2000 mark pretty easily. He did say his goal is only 250 hp and I don't see why he couldn't hit that. The nice thing is that his car is never down at all. Everything can stay together while he builds it which means he can always drive it.
As a reference, the old Nelson/Paxton supercharger kits for the 2nd gen pumped out something like 7 or 8 lbs of boost. Those superchargers had ball drives which were friction units. They were very mechanically inefficient and very hard to turn. Those old blower were also much less thermodynamically efficient as modern units as well. They ran those kits non intercooled with nothing for fuel control other than a rising rate fpr and backing a few degrees off of the crank angle sensor. That's it. Scary! They dyno'd right around 210-215 rwhp. Not spectacular but not too shabby for something so horribly inefficient at that boost level with no intercooling or ecu tuning.
I've historically been against centrifugal superchargers on rotaries and have always thought twin screws were the way to go. However I can't wait to see this project as it progresses. I'll at least be able to form a real opinion based on facts from it. This assumes of course that he actually does it all properly and not ghetto it together. Next time I see him I'll try to get more info. I might just see if he wants to post here. He's not a forum member.
I'm still not clear on what else he's doing but he did mention a fuel pump. I think a 3rd gen one as knowing him he's probably got one lying around from his old car. I think he also mentioned a rising rate fpr and new injectors although I hope he's not going to solely rely on them alone. He had also mentioned methanol although I'm not entirely sure about that nor am I sure about an intercooler. I also don't know about his ecu choice but am curious if he could use a TII Rtek to control it. When I see him again I'll try to get more info.
I do know about what he's got into it so far though. I think he bought the sc for $650 or so online. Atkins wants $300 for their pulleys. I don't know what he paid for his airpump (or if he made it work or not) or random parts. If he needs injectors, and fpr, an ecu solution, etc, the price could jump up towards the $2000 mark pretty easily. He did say his goal is only 250 hp and I don't see why he couldn't hit that. The nice thing is that his car is never down at all. Everything can stay together while he builds it which means he can always drive it.
As a reference, the old Nelson/Paxton supercharger kits for the 2nd gen pumped out something like 7 or 8 lbs of boost. Those superchargers had ball drives which were friction units. They were very mechanically inefficient and very hard to turn. Those old blower were also much less thermodynamically efficient as modern units as well. They ran those kits non intercooled with nothing for fuel control other than a rising rate fpr and backing a few degrees off of the crank angle sensor. That's it. Scary! They dyno'd right around 210-215 rwhp. Not spectacular but not too shabby for something so horribly inefficient at that boost level with no intercooling or ecu tuning.
I've historically been against centrifugal superchargers on rotaries and have always thought twin screws were the way to go. However I can't wait to see this project as it progresses. I'll at least be able to form a real opinion based on facts from it. This assumes of course that he actually does it all properly and not ghetto it together. Next time I see him I'll try to get more info. I might just see if he wants to post here. He's not a forum member.
