And simple translates to low cost to manufacture. The only way a turbo or supercharger made with an impeller could be cheaper would be because of the mass production that has been going on for years. Although it seems that a TT can be made for less even at low quantity if Frank can really make money off selling them to just the rotor heads for $800 a kit.

Not to mention the tech is just better, more efficiency, negligable lag, somewhat of a cooling ability, and no one will know it is there because it is quiet.

the proof will be in the pudding!


I hope so at least. I want to see this thing work so bad!

i like this so much, i have convinced my self to loose the idea of getting a gt35/40 and waiting for this :D

I'm with you OC, i want to see this working with some dyno runs. i got my fingers crossed.

Haven't posted here yet...but I'm following the action with immense interest.:p:

Tesla bladeless disk type Supercharger
 

:cool: kristopher_d; Remember that the RX7, great car that it is, is a discontinued model and of interest to a limited target market. That would be us, the enthusiasts. I am all for gung-ho free market, get the buyers for all they have, convince them of perceived value, who cares about a zero base secondary market when it come to the economy at large, but I have now seen you advocate, twice, that Frank "go for it", advising that everyone needs to make a profit, and charge as much as he can. I think your well-meaning suggestion is misplaced in this case. First everyone does not need t make a profit, that is what co-ops and clubs are all about, people with shared interests and enthusiasm working together to develop something that is good for everybody. I think that Frank should be applauded for his efforts and realization, as he stated himself, that most RX& owners are driving them because they love them; Rx7 owners at large are not big budget sports car builders. They are enthusiasts on a definite budget. I base my statement on driving RX's since 1972 when I first experienced the low cost RX-2. :)

BTW Frank, I think you will want to extend the air intake with a K&N style of free flow filter to forward of the radiator to bring in the coolest possible supply of fresh air. Frank, keep up the good work, yours is the best idea for enhancing the performance of the RX7 in a while. Coupled with free flow catalytic converters and exhaust your Tesla Bladeless Disk Type Supercharger should be just what the doctor ordered. As I stated in my email and previous posts, count me in for the Supercharger!!

Cheers everyone, lets encourage Frank, and support the project by committing to buy based on Franks offer to produce at or very near cost for our community.:cool:

Actually, I believe there could be long term gains from this exercise. Remind that the 2nd gen is the last Wankle car that was offered NA. Remind also that the soon to arrive RX8 is NA. Remind also about the talk about the 2004-6 re-introduction of the RX7 and Miata with the Renisis. And, remind that Mazda has stated on different occasions they have NO intention of offering the new Wankle with a BOOST option.

So, this work for our 2nd Gens might prove excellent basis to provide a kit for the next generation(s) of Wankle cars.

NOTE TO FrankGermano

I've PM's you a link to a site of a Guy that understands very well and has gone to great lengths to source suppliers for mounting brackets and related parts for the Nelson Paxton Super Charger kit. I hope it proves useful in this VERY much appreciated project of yours. When you're ready to start offering this kit, I'll be standing in line with this motley crew ready to purchase.

:cool:

Hi Frank,

Please don't get me wrong. I think what you are doing is very commendable and hope that I did not come off as comdemning it in any way - exactly the opposite!

My only point was that the work required to turn an N/A into a forced induction vehicle (even using very efficient forced induction) is much greater than using something that is already set up for that. I have a supercharged truck and Rx-7 TII, and while I don't claim to be an expert, I do know enough to know that there are fueling, timing, compression, cooling, etc. issues to deal with besides the issue of upgrading the notoriously weak electrical system. Lots of turbo guys have already dealt with these issues (especially some of the 3rd gen single turbo guys) and so seemed to be a pretty ideal fit for something at this stage of the game, although I do realize that you would want to make this as widely available as possible to keep volume up.

Oh and I was just thinking of myself as I know that at some point my turbo will go and I will need a replacement >:). I looked at the site and didn't see any reason why a replacement turbo unit couldn't be built - sorry that I said cartridge if that threw you.

On the plus side (for you that is) is that I hear tell that we may be looking at 42 volt systems in automobiles before too long. I'd think that your setup would fit right in with something along those lines.

Keep up the work and please keep us informed as to your progress. And thanks for all your efforts.

-W

holy crap that was a lot of reading!
Frank you the man!
haha

I've had my RX-7 for 4 years. Love it to death. All stock except for the rims. 1988 GX(canadian model) 93,400 kms (56,000miles). Very impressed with your idea, the tesla pump/engine is cool.

However I am worried about the idea to use an electronic setup with the RX-7s nutoriously crappy electrical system. I think many 2nd gen owners have had issues with re-soldering and bad grounds.

How many benefits are there to using an electric pump versus belt driven? The electric idea sounds really cool but will reliability of the unit be sacraficed? Oh yeah i've been to your website before looking for info on the tesla turbine when i was bored at school. I am aspiring to be an engineer still but currently working on my BASC in Physics. Man it's hard....

Good luck,
Eric

I am not advising Frank to charge an arm and leg. I just want to be sure he makes enough money to continue developing the product for other applications, and improved performance in this application. I don't want him to start selling these units at cost and be unable to continue operating his business do to lack of investors, etc. Investors like profit. The combination of engineering and mfg business involved should make the sale price of the unite 60% profit, 40% cost. This being a market entry product, it is common to cut margine b7 as much as 75%, me3aning the unit should be sold for a total of 13% over cost. Since most of the engineering work will be complete with the initial model, engineering costs may be ammortized across the life of the product line, reducing the cost per unit at market entry. I doubt, however, that this is the appropriate place to discuss economics, so I'll leave the cost issue alone from now on. I just wanted to make it clear that I am not advocating that parts suppliers/builder stick to us, just that they take care of themselves.

Hey Frank,

Are you going to incorporte your "Clapping-Plate-Compressor" into turbo models? or will materials costs be prohibitive?

Serious doubts
 

There was a post by frank recently on his yahoo group ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheTeslaTurbineList/ )
that i think everyone intrested in this supercharger should read. I feel it may determine the out come of this supercharger. Im not going to say anything about the nature of what frank has posted, because i think it would be best to let frank speak for himself, or to wait and let him post here.

as for the actual supercharger design frank has proposed. Yes, i think this has a good chance of working. But, i was origanally for the idea of powering it with an electric motor, but now, after doing some research (all thogh not very good research) it seems that having an electric motor that can both spin fast enough and have enough torque to power the unit effectivly is a pretty tall order. Motors are out there that can do this with no problem, but i think we are going to have trouble powering these, even with upgraded alternators and so on. I would liked to be proved wrong, but i think the alternators and stuff we will need is going to cost a lot and weigh a lot.

If you remember an earlier post by Frank, the motor only needs 1.2hp, and turns at either 10k or 20k RPM, so with some simple calculations, I was able to search globaspec.com and come up with a list of possibilities. After review the list, you'll see that the motor isn't really that difficult to come by.

http://motion-controls.globalspec.co...specsearchable

great, more people who want my email address to bombard me with spam. maybe i said it wrong that it was a tall order to find a motor that can do the job. Theres plently of motors. But can we power them? basiclly, we are converting machinal energy to electric energy then back to machincal for the actual spinning of the disks in the SC, and you lose power everytime its converted. its going to take a big alternator to power an 894 watt electric motor (1.2 hp). Plus, electric motors can require twice the amount of power just to get started. It seems like it would be a lot simpler to drive the SC with a belt, but that would sure make installing it more complex.

894 watts is the power output, the input is going to be much greater.

<bump>

it was falling into the bowels of the forum.

Hmm ~900 watts - Kinda like the starter on a high torque truck engine..

can the electrical system handle that?

i think its going to be hard thing to run. even with better alternators.

but i think frank may be having bigger unrelated problems right now.

Looking forward to more hard numbers.

Personally I think I'd move towards hydraulic drive if it needs much over 1hp. I'm betting that if/when something becomes available in a package proper for feeding a hungry rotary, it wouldn't be a big bit of work to change how the compressor is driven from electric to hydraulic.

Although if a 1.2hp motor can drive it, that should only show ballpark ~90 amp loads to the electrical system at max output. We're not at max output for very long!

Also waiting on subscribtion to the yahoo list to see what the recent news was. Problems not related to this project?? ?? ?? !

a hydraulic drive? what? how does this work?

Tesla bladeless disk type Supercharger
 

:cool: every Supercharger that I have experienced has utilized either an internal gear and chain drive, as in the Harley-Davidson Magna-Charger, or a belt and pulley assembly as in more traditional automotive functions.

The setup in the Harley case delivers a constant 140% of the requisite air required at all times the boost pressure is set, at say 6 lbs to deliver enough boost to control compression at a predetermined and desired level, in the Harley case, less than 14:1. Result, Harley sound and feel, sport bike performance. The factory rev limiter is not altered, so as to prevent over revving and the accompanying engine meltdown potential.

My point, electrical is one thought, but why not use a pulley or gear drive tied to something that is already constantly rotating anyway? Thoughts? :cool:

Cheers,

Isn't the Magna-Charger a positive displacement (roots or twin-screw) system. Centrifugal systems, which this Tesla unit is, increase in boost exponontially. To maintain a linear Tq map it is neccessary to drive the the compressor independent of engine speed. To my knowledge, this requires an electric drive (though there may be other methods of transfering power to the compressor). Another advantage of the electric system is the in cockpit control of boost level. At cruising speed on the highway, give it just enough boost to achieve ideal efficiency. At idle it stop and go traffic, kill the boost all together. Lined up next a ricer, crank up the boost to you particular engines safe operating limit.

is there any reason why you couldnt modify an existing turbo to use a bladeless turbine and/or compressor? seems like it would be better in every way, if someone could make it work, they already have my money.

Hydraulic
 

Hydraulic...Engine driven pump, then hydraulic pressure drives the motor.

Not sure how much more effecient it is than mechanical>electrical>mechanical but I know that it is.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/p...ess010273.html

http://www.caribbeanmotorsports.com/...g%20turbos.pdf Visual. Scroll down to HS6-HS10.

Similiar benefits as seen here. Can get enough power out of the drive system at idle to spool to full boost. Electro/hydraulic controls.

Most likely the stock power steering pump OR some vehicle's power steering pump would be suitable for the source drive.

R

why not set the thing to kick in at a set rpm,maybe using the leads from a tach with a shift light,i know you would have to use circutry to boost the signal to drive it.just a thought.and it wount show me what frank said.could you post it?

power steering pumps would be the ideal solution as brackets are already avalible for those of use with manual racks... those pumps have also been used (are used) for powering 8,000lb winches on 4x4's so spooling a little 1.2hp load would be trivial. But, this would also add two more hydrolic lines to the engine bay and create more clutter and more expense. (PS pumps aren't the cheapest buggers out there)

I want to see this work because it follows the wankel tradition of going against the grain and making serious power out of tiny packages. I'd just hate to see it become a $4K upgrade from add on parts needed to get it running. Didn't Frank say the original idea was to offer the supercharger at $300? Now we're seeing 800+ Why don't we all wait and see what this thing performs like before trying to "sell" it. Frank is a man on a mission to make it work for his own lusting. If he can mass produce them in the future I think we'd all benefit from it, but untill such a time as the design is drivable I think we should all lay off the business end of this endevor.

frank-whats the progress on this?i have been following this thread with some definate interest,and was hoping to find out where you where at with everything.
david

frank you havent posted anything about your test yet it was supposed to be last week i think where are you at does anybody know whats going on?

:cool: The answer to the question may be found on frank's site at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheTeslaTurbineList/

Frank's plea reads like a chain letter. Nothing personal, but, a Mensa should be smarter than to post anything like this. He sounds desperate, and it is sad, but now he says he needs $28000 a month to carry on research. I think it will take more than a do it yourself kit on eBay to correct the situation Read it and decide for yourself.

Cheers, everyone, I hope I'm wrong but when someone talks the talk, then posts a "please send me money", I heard about a single mom who did it and now she has an advice column"; well, I don't think the whole story has been revealed. Thoughts, after you visit the site and read the postings, please :cool:

Taipan,
Why don't you copy and paste Frank's post, because you can't access that link unless you are a member of that group. Thanks.

People, you aren't thinking. God himself couldn't design anything that could spool up to 10k rpms with "virtually no spool up time". The disks have inertia, the air has intertia. Even if you cranked enough power through the electric motor, the sudden speed change would cause all kinds of turbulence and cavitation behind the vanes. No website full of infomercial hype can change that. If Frank would like to explain how he plans on overcoming this, I'll be the first to listen. Since he just brushes it off that tells me either he's letting his excitement get the best of him, or he's a con artist. I'm leaning towards the second. Anyone who wants to give me 28k a month can get the first chance to try this really great nuclear reactor that i've just installed in my car. I'm working out the details right now, but the results look promising. It should only take about a year for me to iron out the details. Don't miss out on this opportunity.

What vanes? It's bladeless (ie flat disks). Try building one, you'll see the potential for yourself. I have a post earlier on how to build a ghetto version.

the vanes hold the disks

And if you really want potential, you should try building my reactor yourself.

Please, send me enough info to try it, and I will. :D

Tesla bladeless disk type Supercharger
 

:cool: Gstar; The link is a must read in my opinion, and too big to paste. It does require subscription but is also easily unsubscribed from as well. For anyone who read the web site this will be an insight at least.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheTeslaTurbineList/

In answer to your request here are unedited examples, judge for yourself, I offer no oinion except, Hello, :cool:

From: "Frank Germano" <frank@g...>
Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 9:27 am
Subject: Frank needs some help


Hello list,

This is, in a very big way, one of the most embarrassing emails I will probably ever send in my entire life. It is also one of the most exciting. Those of you who have been with this list since the beginning
know what we have been through in bringing this technology to light. I appreciate just as much now, as when I first created this list, all of your support. This morning, as I was watching the "Today Show", Matt was
doing an interview with a girl named "Karyn". I won't get into the details, other than saying that she was 20,000 dollars in debt and sinking fast. She put up a website and simply ASKED people to help her out and send whatever they could afford to give.Cinderella
Story.something like less than a year later - she is completely out of debt, has a website helping others, a new pending book deal, and still doing interviews. Well.the story hit me pretty hard.

With all the work I've done (as well as my fantastic partners - Martin Dorantes and Guy Letourneau, P.E.) and all of the tremendous support, interest, and investment monies that were originally poured into us to
start this "dream".I've about come to my end. For the very first time in my life, I can't see a way back out, or a way to climb out of this hole, which has never happened to me before. I have always dug my way out of financial and personal messes. I watched both parents die of cancer - slowly, and have gone through two very nasty divorces, and yet, nothing has hit me like this current situation. Anyway - I put up my own "Help Frank Germano" page on my site. Please, no negative comments on this one. I have a dream of bringing Tesla's technology back into the commercial market, and I would hope that by now, most of you on this list do as well.

I am not asking for one single hand-out from ANYONE on this list!!! This list is simply a means of hopefully getting this message out to others. Pass the link around to your friends.pass it on to anyone you think
could actually help. It's a pretty darn big world, and I am sure there are those out there that do, in fact, care and can help. Again, no negative comments, please. You could basically call this my one little ray of hope.

The link: http://www.frank.germano.com/helpfrankgermano.htm

If this crazy idea worked for a young little girl in NY City and helped her to dig out of only credit card debt.I would dare to venture that by the Grace of God.it might just work in helping me bring this technology to the world, as well. I have gone as far as I can, financially with this venture. I am not willing to throw in the towel, just yet. This is in no way related to company policy nor practice. If I can acquire the necessary funds.the dream continues. This is personal. Thanks for your time.

Do not reply to this email with the list. Replies should be addressed to
me, personally - frank@ggermano.com

Sincerely,

Frank

Frank Dominic Germano
Co-founder
International Turbine And Power, LLC
931 Rumsey Avenue, Box 550
Cody, Wyoming 82414
www.frank.germano.com <http://www.frank.germano.com/>
frank@germano.com
Frank Dominic Germano
HC 1, Box 1887
Tafton, PA 18464


And follwed by:
From: "Frank Germano" <frank@germano.com>
Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 12:40 pm
Subject: Phase Two: On-line store at Amazon.com




All,

As the next phase of "whatever" comes into play, if anyone is early
Christmas shopping or whatever.check out the on-line store from
Amazon.com that is now up on my website. Hey - you buy.we get a small
commission check. Small is the operative word here, but, everything goes
towards additional funding for the turbine and pump.
http://www.frank.germano.com/thestore.htm . If you like the darn
thing.buy something from it. There's gadgets, gizmos, tools, power
tools, electronics, etc., and all of it is items that I personally use
and can recommend. No laughing. What a switch.now I'm a darn internet
salesman. No insult intended to anyone who sells this stuff for a
living. If you have some suggestions for other items, let me know.

Also - who has built that little toy project I posted directions for in
one of my last posts?! Care to give me your observations? I would bet
(if someone actually BUILT it!) that the results surprised you. This
little toy should have shown you that an endothermic reaction is
possible on the outlet of the turbine's exhaust. It is Schauberger
Repulsine principle applied to the Tesla turbine.but.it should
significantly increase not only the efficiency of the turbine, it may
just allow it to self-sustain with minimal input charge. No.it is NOT
any form of free energy - just a big way to increase performance.

PS: everything is FINE with me, personally and financially.the email
requesting the "help" is only related to funding ADDITIONAL research and
development on the turbine and pump. Like I said before - it costs ITP
about $28,000.00 per month to function in minimum capacity. Without
additional monies from investors, that can no longer be funded by us
INDIVIDUALLY. We aren't stupid, ya know! Quirky, egocentric, talented,
ambitious - yes.stupid, no. Don't worry.some how I'll find additional
creative financing, as this project is too important and too many new
discoveries have been make to just throw in the towel at this stage. We
always have found a way to stay alive.we'll keep at it as long as there
is an interest in the technology.

Thanks - and buy some stuff from the darn website! Quick!!! ;)

Frank Dominic Germano
Http://www.frank.germano.com/helpfrankgermano.htm

Let me clarify my viewpoint on all of this. I would love to see this work. I am very quick to embrace new technology, if it's useful. You won't see me buying a segway anytime soon. Sure, the idea is neat but you need to think it through. Can you imagine lower manhatten at lunchtime if everyone had one of those. Trying to thread you're way through shoulder to shoulder crowds is hard enough when your using your own omnidirectional transportations system( your feet.) Think about how hard it would be if you couldn't sidestep. This is the same kind of thing. I was initally very interested, read his website, did a little reasearch and came up with some questions. Instead of anwsering them and explaining him self, he just brushes them aside. I ask: Wouldn't the spool up time be too long. He says: There is virtually no spool up time. I ask: Don't the disks have inertia? He says: There is virtually no spool up time. I ask: Doesn't the air also have inertia? He says: There is virtually no spool up time. I ask: Even if you could get the disks spinning to extrodinarily high rpms virtually instantly, wouldn't that cause lots of turbulence and cavitation behind the vanes holding the disks to the rod they're mounted on, reducing initial efficency thereby causing lag. He says: There is virtually no spool up time. Read my website. Nikola Tesla was a genius. He is not addressing legitimate concerns that myself, and a few other people have had. As I have said before, I am more than willing to let him tell me why I am wrong. Since he won't, and now he wants money, I don't believe him. Like the segway guy, he just concentrates on hype and tries to ignore anyone who says "What about..."

im saddened that frank didnt post about his situation first hand. I have doubts we will be seeing any more posts from him in this fourm, and i think supercharger is going nowhere unless some one else does the R&D on this. I think the theory will work and all, but it sounds like frank was in trouble and in an emergency looking for a market where he could apply the tesla concepts. The clasic story of to little to late.

as for the spool up time, the idea was it will have the same spool up time that a belt driven supercharger has. And that is none. The plan was that the electric motor would have enough power and torque that it could spool up as fast as your engine.
But i dont think our cars could ever power an electric motor that could do that, at least not constantly. even with better alternators and so on.

yearrgh,
It's pretty easy to beat up on someone just sitting at your desk or your chair watching TV or something, isn't it? Do the work and understand the operation of the Tesla turbine and invest 1.2 million dollars to date in the R&D and have several units production/commercially ready, and then come at us with negative comments.

Once again, as stated throughout the entire website - not only mine, but several others, as well, including TEBA's, in the history of the Tesla turbine articles, and in three books written on the subject, and the patent information, itself - the Tesla turbine (and pump) operate on boundary layer drag - adhesion and viscosity - fluid or gas tends to want to "stick" to a smooth surface as it is passing over it (in our case, it is the surface of the disks in the rotor pack...in an airplane, it is the fluid - the air - trying to adhere to the wing of the plane). By decreasing the operating fluid's passage - the thickness of the spacing between the disks to the ideal - .030" in width for an air compressor or air turbine or pump - we have now created an interlap of the boundary layer by a small amount. When you say "spool up" time - what the heck does that even pertain to in a Tesla Turbine? Read the information. The Tesla turbine IS NOT a conventional turbine which produces a "lag time" (which in actuallity is the compressor stage building up enough boost to drive the airflow). There IS NO compressor stage in a Tesla turbine (or pump) the unit is simply full of flat, smooth disks, spaced slightly appart with their centers cut out and the disks mounted on a shaft. Pretty simple. Compression is internal, and a function of the volute size and the spacing of the disks, themselves.

So...how can I address your "spool up" time question other than by telling you that it simply doesn't exist in the conventional sense that you are attempting to put it into?! That is why I continually tell you to READ the information already in existance ON the Tesla-type units. Read over the patent information closely. Now, to address "slip" in the diskpack - yes - that does exist, however, almost like a hydro-static transmission, it is an almost instantaneous transfer to movement (i.e. spinning the disks in a circular path and transfering that movement to the shaft). In the horsepower curve, it starts at absolute minimum (dead stop) and goes up linear with the speed of the turbine, reaching it's maximum when the velocity of the incoming fluid is approximately 1/2 the velocity at the periphery of the disks. The pump operates identical to the turbine, except once powered, the fluid is transfered (pumped) from the disk's surface into the volute and out, again, proportionate to the speed of the diskpack at its periphery.

So again - how do you want me to address your issues (?) other than to say 1.) you are not at all familiar with the Tesla Turbine, and 2.) your condition that you are setting before me just simply does not apply to a boundary layer turbine?! Mathematically there IS a small fraction in time where the fluid is "slipping" (not adhering to the metal) around the disk pack. Once the boundary layer has been established, the transfer is virtually instantaneous, proportionate to the speed at the periphery of the disks. How FAST can a pump be brought to full speed? In any pump, under 18", full operating RPM can be attained in seconds (dependent on the drive motor powering it). In a 125 HP turbine, with Propane gas as the combustable drive, the 10" turbine reaches full RPM and HP output in under 4 seconds. That's hopefully enough to answer your question. If you need more information and specifications - email me directly, and I will send you several detailed engineering reports that you can read over.

It's not just "hype" either. These units are fully functional and only await further investor funding to bring to market. I do not (nor does International Turbine And Power, LLC) ignore "what about..." questions - we have already addressed those issues in engineering reports, technical manifests, investor disclosures and third-party engineering verification tests. Will I address technical information requests on an "RX-7" forum? No. Those are addressed directly by ITP to interested parties, but would be far too "off the coarse" for this forum, nor do I wish to waste anyone's time with information in such volume and engineering detail that most would simply not understand it.

Hope this answered part of your question. Any more?

Oh...forgot to answer every question that "yearrgh" posted: Inertia? You are probably refering to centrifical and centrifugal forces. Does a merry-go-round exert centrifical force on its riders? Yep. Does it rip appart from its central shaft mounting, or do the seats go flying outward? Nope. Why? It's ENGINEERED to withstand those forces. In the first turbines we constructed, which were designed to operate at 18,000 RPM and under continuous heat of 1,200 F, we experianced not one single failure, other than a bearing giving out due to poor quality control from manufacture. How much tensile force do you think it would take to "rip" appart 304 stainless steel? More than you could imagine. However, the force (from the adhesion/viscosity of the fluid to the disks) is directed RADIALLY, thus reducing the overall transfer of energy, directly to the disks, the center towards the shaft taking the "brunt" of it. You want to ask about "inertia" of the air? Do you mean the incoming fluid (in the turbine) or the "pumped" fluid in the pump? The fluid is tranversing a radial pattern, again. If too much resistance is encountered (i.e. HP increase in the turbine's case, or shear fluid flow in the pumps), the path is simply legnthened...think of the fluid flow in either case as a radial SPRING...it can "flex" and adjust it's tightness (or loseness) dependent on the existing conditions. More torque required(?) - the tighter the radial path...less torque (or energy) used or required - the shorter the path. If you could immagine the path that a string would take in a "yo-yo", this would be similar - if the path was shorter, the string would wind loosly around the shaft...if it had more tension on it, it's path would be longer because it was winding more tightly around the shaft and outward. Lastly, if you really want to understand it and will take the time to read the patent info, and the engineering reports, I will gladly forward them to your individual emails. Cavitation does not occure in the disk pack of either the turbine or the pump - again, it is a smooth radial path that the fluid is taking. Yes, one does have to engineer the dimensions of the turbine or pump for the conditions (either the required HP, or the fluid output in GPM's) but, because only "X" amount of fluid or gas can adhere to any given amount of the disks at any one time, the transition is very smooth and steady - any excess will just simply pass through the diskpack and exit...SMOOTHLY, without the turbulant flow found in conventional units. That was why Tesla originally stated in 1911 - "don't you see how simple it is?"

Sorry for the legnthy posts. Happy Thanksgiving.

Now we're talking. Maybe there's been some miscommunication involved in this. When I've said "spool up time" I don't mean it in the regular sense, I just used the term for simplicity to describe the time between the system being effectively inoperative, to the time it is operating at a full level. This would include slip, which you just anwsered for somewhat. As for the disk pack reaching full rpm, I'm still concerened about the time factor. Taking 4 seconds is just too long, for a 1/4 mile run, when you need it to go from max to min to max each time you shift. I don't need precise technical information, my head is too full of my own designs and machinations to worry too much about someone elses. What i'm looking for is recognition of legitimate concerns, and anwsers on how you're addressing them. This is a good start, i hope you continue this way.

Frank,Good to see your response...
 

Please don't take offense.

The folks here on the Forum have mind set on conventional "Blowers". My feeling is this is kind of like speaking to a world of Vacume Tube electronics 50 years ago about merits of transistors. The application has common ground, but the fundamentals are just plain different.

Anyway, cutting to the chase and not have read EVERY post in this thread since it started, is the situation now that:

1. Research as to application to YOUR RX7 is still moving such that you might have a working proto-type in the near future (and can start getting all excited)?

Or

2. Overall research and development needs additional overall funding to allow your Wankle project to progress to a point where a proto-type can be be had?

Yearrgh - okay - the time it will take the turbine to "kick in" and supply boost will be less than one second - you see, it will already be spinning at its maximum (or very near to it) speed from the start. Radial energy flow - when required will only slow the turbine down minimally. Then it will simply pick back up to full RPM. Contolling the boost is the damn problem, because, up unitl recently, we haven't found a way to THROTTLE the unit - it just wants to come back to full boost (pump mode) or HP output (turbine mode). Then I came up with a "one-way" valve idea, that effectively stopped the radial spiral effect...this gave us allot of options, and it also acted as a way to have an adeabatic transfer of energy (an almost perfect transfer of heat energy without loss). Clapping-plate-compressor, for short as of now. Anyway...now the turbine is throttle-able.

Think of that yo-yo example...when required, power is transfered no differently than the string on the yo-yo getting pulled snug. The available boost will be there at any time you want it. Now...since someone was so interested in posting the financial assistance requests: How does anyone go to college these days except for grants, etc. (higher degrees) or scholarships? No different in the corporate world - we ask for money from different sources ranging from government contracts, individuals interested in our technology, or investors (Angels or VC's) interested in - basicall - making money off our labors. I have enough personal funds to more than adequately fund this, or any other related projects. I could walk away now and retire if I felt that was what I wanted to do. My request for help or assistance is only in regards to hopefull having some investor "come out of the wood-work" that was otherwise scared by the 9/11 tragedy. Investment monies are very scarse. these days!!! ;) . We (ITP) will continue to hunt and turn over every stone in the hopes of finding corporate or individual investment sources, trust me...it's what we do on a daily basis. You guys actually think I have a day job? This (ITP) is my only "job".

I think you misunderstood another question. By inertia, i'm talking about objects in rest tending to stay in rest, etc. not centripital or centrifigul force. I'm not concerned about the thing coming apart, just the time it takes to get it moving. As for the air, it too will resist acceleration. It is not moving radially before the disks start spinning, it's just sitting there. Again, i'm glad that you are starting to address these. As long as you don't ever let the rpm's drop below whatever threshold required to keep the air moving radially then this would be less of a problem. The cavitation would occur behind the vanes that hold the disks to the central shaft. Tapering the trailing edge would probably solve the problem. My main concern isn't about the pump in general, i can see that it works. What i'm concerned with is the requirement of starting and stopping the system. Now that you are addressing some of these, you seem much more legitimate in my mind. This is good, it's depressing when someone who starts out sounding like they have a great idea turns out to be a con artist. Although you still won't be seeing any of my money soon. : )

Last post during the Thanksgiving holiday - yes - I am continuing to devolop this unit with personal monies. I have had some interesting results, however, as of yet, this system is not driveable. It does give the wankel one hell of a kick in the butt, however, you can not control it and have it "street-able" just yet. It's mostly due to control (input and output) parameters at this stage. Rear wheel HP went to 212 on the last dyno...but...if it wasn't shut off, and it would have easily climbed higher, I would NOT have an engine, and we are still checking to see what it actually DID do to the engine, in any case. The unit is NOT mounted in the engine bay at this point, as I am still debating on a mechanical (belt) drive version. What I need to do is just drop everything else and concentrate on this one item. Until I re-post after the holidays, let's just let this thread drift down the files. When I have some hard-core numbers and a proper set-up which can be mounted under your car's hood, I'll revive this thread. It's just simply a matter of finding the proper solutions...and engineering it to work effectively. Happy Thanksgiving to all (again!).

That about does it for my concerns so far, since they have to do with getting it going and stopping it. Although, as you said, keeping it spinning all the time brings up a whole new set of concerns. I'll have to give it some thought... As for money, it's difficult to ask for it without making people suspicious. Good luck. You still won't see any of mine. ;)

Frank, care to post the dyno chart if ya got it?

Ok so since you have a working prototype now (sort of) I have a question that i think a lot of people have been wondering about: with the electric motor that i assume you are using now, what is the load on the electrical system?

Also i do have another idea for how to drive the unit:
why not use another tesla turbine in the "engine" application to drive it? It could work from exhaust gas like a conventional turbo but would be much more efficient, right?
Just an idea

Pat

I think frank need a beer like the rest of us and let us all give some time over the next week to try and weed out the new problems he has i still want this if it works so i think its safe to say keep up the good work frank you still have followers