Thank you for using some technical jargon to explain what I've been saying for days. Who give's a rats back-side how fast the engine is turning, I want 8psi of boost, and I want it all the time (may go higher (probably) or lower (yeah, right) later on).

Frank,

How about a just a replacement cartridge and compressor/turbine housings for the turbo guys? Seems like that should be pretty easy. You could probably design it over the weekend. I didn't look at the spreadsheet, so I don't know if the exhaust flow is there, but considering that this thing is supposed to be much more efficient than vaned compressors, seems like it shouldn't be a problem. Plus you don't have to worry about fueling (up to a point), where to fit the unit, or how to get the electrical system to support the unit. AND you could just have different numbers of vanes for different boost levels and many people would probably be very happy to replace their blown cartridges with a more efficient and hopefully less expensive design. I know I would.

I have my doubts about this actually working out (mostly because of the electrical generation scheme), but I'm going to put one of these motors (a little tiny one) together this weekend and try it out. Regardless, it's great to see someone trying to put something together for the RX community (especially something new for the older cars).

One last thing - you mentioned a number of times about the extra effort involved in doing this for an RX-7 vs. a 350. Which begs the question, why didn't you do it for a 350 first? At least for proof of concept?

-W

what i said earlier about 10 - 20 posts ago, i was trying to say the same thing that wheels jsut said. i know i would be all over that if u could come out with that.

You guys are still missing the basic functioning and workings of a Tesla Turbine/Pump vs a standard or conventional unit (turbocharger in this instance). On a conventional turbocharger, there is the drive stage, and the compression stage - or boost side. Look at the guts of your turbo and you'll see what I mean. Now, take another look at my website (go back up the thread for all the links http://www.frank.germano.com ) and see the guts of a Tesla Pump - single phase. The compression comes from (basically) the internal spacing between the disks and how much you restrict the outlet volute. SINGLE STAGE. It is also naturally dependent on how much "push" or HP is driving the unit once you restrict that outlet volute, however, there is a balancing act there - overpressurize, and the fluid (in our case - air) will heat up drastically at this point. No damage to the unit, but, very unwanted in a supercharger/turbocharger application. So...to answer the last posts, could we just replace the "guts" of the RX-7 turbo? No. Totally different internal design paramaters. Now...the GOOD news is that the case is fabricated, as are all the air conduits and electronics, and the tie-in to the laptop. The unit is sitting in the space previously occupied by the battery. They - (I have two batteries) are remotely mounted in the rear hatch area. The case was (crudely) made out of aluminum, the disks are 304 SS. Size - 10" diameter; 5 primary disks. The DC pancake is conserv. rated at 12 HP and maximum (estimated) boost will be 18psi. I've got it set to kick in gradually at 2,000RPM at 2psi and add 2psi boost for every 500 RPM additional thereafter (2000RPM@2psi...2500RPM@4psi...3000RPM@6psi...3500 RPM@8psi...4000RPM@10psi, etc.). Since the boost curve is totally linear, the boost gradual in an extremely predictable level, it should be very, very smooth and the HP gains should just keep "pulling" without any serious "jerks" or unexpected shocks. My ONLY concern is with my engine, itself. I SHOULD have taken it appart and done a totaly rebuild, but, I don't want to go there - yet. I will in all likelyhood loose the seals at near full boost pressures...but...I wanted a new engine from MazdaTrix anyway. ;) Keep you all posted. Look for some results early next week, as we are working on it all this weekend.

Correction - 1.2HP DC pancake motor driving the supercharger.

something ive been wondering- with this refrigeration unit thingy you are talking about will we still need to add an intercooler? anyway i am glad to see you are making progress. keep up the good work bro!

I don't know anything about boost, but I would think that you would want to program the boost curve to reach 6 psi at around 5,000 rpms instead of 3,000 rpms. Then maybe flatten the boost at 6 psi from 5,000 to redline. See if a na motor can handle this before you try 10 psi at 4,000 rpms as you currently have it set.

Gstar: you dont want to have the boost 'curve' actually a curved line. i gave a link a while ago in this thred that says why this is. a linear line is the best.

frank, is the SC controller a stand alone program?

did u have a compression test done on your engine? that will tell you if you need a rebuild or not. 120psi per 'chamber' is 'like new' i think.

I'm with the newbie. Running 18PSI on an N/A will more than likely pop it on the 1st run.

BUT, I'd say take it to 8PSI, with it flattening off at ~ 5500RPM (all the intake peices are open, and not , moving around anymore, so no sudden jolt of Max Boost)

http://pbgarrott.tripod.com/pgsupercharger/index.html

this guy says he can do 10 psi with his street ported NA engine. But im sure the 10 psi is maximum boost at redline.

10psi at 4000 rpm is going to be too much.

make sure you can give it enough fuel to match your boost too. the NA injecters have a really low flow rating and your going to out run them really fast.

what ever you do, make sure you run some high octane, and if you hear pinging, let off immediately. You might have to retard your timing too.

one more thing.... Please take pictures!!!!!

we'll cut the boost in half then...see what happens from there. The unit is finished. New injectors are in (high flow fuel injectors - not sure the rating right now). The engine's compression checks out as expected - pretty good for the miles on it, however, it was originally a MazdaTrix rebuilt engine, and no clue what those specs were. We'll flatten out around 10psi as suggested, because, with a simple input from the laptop, I can cram full boost in if we want. See what happens when we get up to around 6,000 RPM. This is gonna be a "cross your fingers" run, for shure. Let you all know the news when we get everything ready. BTW: my partner (MArtin Dorantes from Texas) wants to know how many seriously interested people there are who would actually PURCHASE this unit/kit if it actually works. Price will not be too scary (under 2 grand for starters). If I get him involved, we start working from our machine shop down in Austin...right now, I'm working on my own, from an R&D automotive speed shop up here in PA. It would be MUCH better and quicker to work out of Texas, however, I can only launch that project if we have a solid idea of how many pre-orders we will have. Email me directly at frank@germano.com if you have a definate interest in this package. Thanks.

Frank, i know this is still in it's early stages right now but what are you forseeing as to the kits "bolt on" possiblities? Right now you are controlling this thing from a laptop and have your main battery relocated to the thunk. i don't see relocating the battery to be a problem but what about the laptop? i don't want or have a laptop that i would put in my car permanently to control this pump.

For the final version, can you see it being pre-programmed or something to avoid something like this? i don't want to be putting down ~$2000 only to have to shell out several hundred dollars more on a laptop just to make it work. Don't get me wrong, i'm still stoked about having boost, but it's starting to sound like there are going to be more components involved than previously expected.

kristopher_d: I'm in complete agreement with you. IT just seems you have to use the more technical terms to get your point across with engineers. :)
As long as you're using a boost pressure sensor for feedback, it seems you should be able to program for any boost curve you want either in hardware or using a laptop for control.
I'm definitely interested. Unfortunately I don't see having $2K available for forced induction anytime this year. I'll be happy to pimp out my ride as a test mule. Otherwise, hopefully this product will find it's way to market and I'll be able to buy one (Or a few. I have a 6-cyl motorcycle that's just BEGGING for boost!) next year.
Thanks for bringing this out, Frank!

this sounds like a really good idea. i wish someone would give him the tech info he needs so he can get on with it.

I may just break down and apply for a credit card (debt, yuck).

hey in one of ur earlier posts u said
"..I really think this project has some merrit, and I am going to persue it fully. So...what I am going to work on is -
1.) Supercharger
2.) Turbocharger
3.) Intercooler (bladeless disk system to replace the current intercooler either supplied by Mazda or aftermarket)..."
so with what u jsut said is makin a turbo with this design not possible or just not for he stock turbo housing? plz clarify

I'm somewhat lost as to why this needs to be driven by a dc motor.I understand the compressor is different than a standard vane compressor, but its still driven by a spinning shaft.
if its most efficient for the shaft on a regular compressor to be spun by the exhuast side of a turbo, why is it beneficial for this to be run off of an electric motor instead (other than making it easier to fabricate)?

It's not more efficient to be run off an electric motor. It's easier to install in an NA.

It's not possible to put a tesla turbine disc pack in the stock turbo housing, but it is possible to build a tesla turbin driven tesla pump to replace the stock turbo.

Come on guys, read Frank's site. The rest of us have.

heh, the front page of frank's site reads a little too much like an infomercial, I stopped reading there.

And i guess I misunderstood the scope of this project. with the main benifit of a tesla turbine being efficiency, dealing with all the power losses from converting between electrical and mechanical power just seems confusing. as a technology demonstration though, i guess it wouldnt matter. definitly hope it works out, always good to see new products for our cars.

with this post i've noticed something my japanese teacher talked about alot.. 'you american students are so spoiled in japan we have to think for ourselves and try to find the awnser ourselves before asking a question becuse it is so competitve over there.' IE ALL of the answers to about 75% of the questions now whould be awnsered if people whould just READ IE: the full post and franks website...

ok theres my rant

Hey i do not have a car yet worthy of putting money into, but i am either going rx7(2nd gen) or supra(MKIII) if i were to get the supra would i be able to buy the unit and adapt it to my car? the price of 1,200 to 1,500 i can afford. once you start getting close to 2,000 it is much harder. So i geuss my main question here is, will the unit be stand alone?

Also once you get the program running a sugestion ( i am no programmer) could you set numers to each rpm increment and then hook it up to the throttle position sensor and give that a number, then when multiplied the computer gives the turbine that amount of boost? mabey im way off but i am juss trying to help

video the test run. hehehe =)
shshshshsHSSHSHSHSHSHSHshahahahahaha... tink tink tink - poof.

seriously though. video of the testing would be sweet

Frank would you mind curious rotorheads dropping by? I looked on the the map and I'm not very far from Lake Wallenpaupack

pre-orders are somthing that has always scared me. Being in the computer industry has taught me never to pre-order anything, and luckly, i didnt have to learn the hard way. I will buy one of these units if everything works out. But as for pre-orders, only if i came and saw what your doing in person... A pre-order is kind of like an investment in a stock to me. id like to do some research and see if my investment is going to have a good chance of return.

Do you need pre-orders to start production?

Could we get specifications on how the control works for the SC? I would like to write my own control program.

Tesla disk type Supercharger
 

:cool: Frank, your work and project are both worthwhile and commendable! I am abosolutely performance oriented and would love to install and test your supercahrger. I have ridden Harley-Davidson, with a Magna superchargger, and dreamed of putting one on my RX7. Count me in, contact me offlist by email, I have friends racing RX7 who may have access to some of the numbers and performance limitations you are asking about. Even Detroit realizes the value of supercharging small engines. All I can say is bring it on!! Cheers for now,

To answer a few of the last posts: when this "kit" is ready, it will not have to be run from a laptop computer. It will come with everything necessary for a complete, smooth, no-hassle bolt-in to either a standard N/A or a turbo RX-7. Can we build a TURBO charger? Yes - very easily. I have always felt that superchargers were a much better way to get performance gains (no intercooler, for one) and the process of designing a kit is much simpler. That why I tackled the supercharger kit first. Cost will be competetive. One of the biggest restraining factors are the inhearantly HIGH cost of ALL RX-7 parts, aftermarket or otherwise. The turbine, once we figure out that we have several orders, will drop in price dramatically, the second we can switch away from hand tooling the case and diskpack. If I can get it to a cast case, it can drop to as low as 300.00 per unit, verses over a thousand dollars to hand tool. Volume drops everything. I'm still working on the bugs we encountered over the weekend, but that's mostly because I've eliminated the stock engine controls, and now I have to figure out where I screwed up the mapping. Let you all know when I have more information.

I am far away, and i would still drive down if he didnt mind


On another note, imagin the weight reduction benifets that some people will beable to exploite when the TT is available.

it will be the weight of a turbo car less

Heavy turbo manafold, replace with some nice headers
-No heavy large wastegate
-no blow off valve
-no intercooler, unless i missed something and the plan is to use one now


thats nice, obviously i dont have the weight for anyof this, but just speculating, i see the car being lighter with the TT

Tesla bladeless disk type Supercharger
 

:cool: Frank; at =< $300, I say bring on the Supercharger now. Having experienced both Superchargers and turbo, I am far more interested in the Supercharger from an initial cost, ongoing maintenance, servicing, and replacement of worn parts perspective.

Find the point of max boost without detonating the engine and set the boost there. Design in a boost lift for those who want it for track days and don't mind owning the bragging rights to replaced engines. Porsche designed their turbo this way, partially because most drivers simply cannot out drive the capabilities of their vehicles in the first instance, conversely, they overdrive their own abilities. Hence Porsche's H.P. restrictions with their turbo are not engineering driven, rather they are safety driven. Yet, who would call a 911-turbo tame?

My point? A Supercharged engine with boost set at a maximum level that does not encourage engine detonation will maintain its normal useful life with no abnormal deterioration in performance or engine wear, and will equal or exceed the performance specifications of a turbo-charged engine without the accompanying cost of turbo maintenance.

Frank; all I can say is, bring on the Supercharger, the RX7 needs it now. I can probably speak for two now, and at least 6 for members of the club. Contact me, off list, through my profile with the when, where, and how to order the Superchargers.

Cheers for now,: cool:

Thanks for all the posts and suggestions. It would seem there is enough interest and potential buyers that the project will now be taken over down in Austin, Texas, by my partner, Martin Dorantes, and be done properly in our machine shop there. This will also yield results much more quickly than I can do up here in PA. No more cobbling...yippie. On a note to any/all members and guru's out there - does anyone CURRENTLY have a supercharger on their RX-7? What I am interested in mainly is the aftermarket parts list and items that come with the kit for direct bolt-in applications. If there is a quality kit already in existance, all that would need to be done is switch out the supercharger (impellor, more than likely) with our unit - saves allot of time, and the performance gains alone would be more than worth our effort to track one of these "kits" down and pull the switch.

As far as I know, there aren't any SC kits available anymore.

This might help:
http://home.earthlink.net/~burntoast/super.html
http://www.rx-7.cc/supercharger.html
http://pbgarrott.tripod.com/pgsupercharger/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/oatseason/supercharger.html

Don't forget all the other cars out there that need boost. If this works for the RX7, it will work for numerous other vehicles.

frank, i saw someone selling a nelson/paxton supercharger kit over on www.thepartstrader.com if you want to actually get your hands on one but he wants $2000 for it (pretty steep IMO).

http://www.thepartstrader.com/Single...=101&C2ID=1004

also, i definately like the intake elbow on those units, and if your supercharger isn't to heavy i might sit nicely at the end of that elbow without a bracket. Frank, is there going to need to be any kind of lubrication system hooked up to this think? if there is, is it self contained?

oh and SuperchargedRex's website is http://www.geocities.com/boatseason/supercharger.html

Thanks for the links...we're on it. I made a bit of a mistake in running things from the laptop and now need to reconnect everything we tore appart and just have the laptop MONITOR everything and NOT control it. I can't control the supercharger and the electronics and the engine parameters at the same time...anyway...reconnect we go. The Tesla type systems do not (nor ever did) need any oiling or internal or external lubrication. We started using Magnetic bearings (virtually zero friction - unregisterable wear) and there are even "air-gap" bearings which are less expensive than the mags. Weight of the entire (tooled steel) unit is appr. 6 lbs. total. Gotta go...lots more wiring to do between today, tomorrow and Wednesday...the fun never ends.

Taipan: The problem going this route is when someone like me comes along and wants to use this for racing. I need full control over the unit and able to really fine tune it. It sounds like you want to have restrictions on the controls stright from the factory. That might be good for joe schmoe street racer, but not good for me. So im against that.

Scathcart from bc has a sc and he's got some nice lists put together -- he's been posting on this thread.

Tesla bladeless disk type Supercharger
 

:cool: OC; you may have misread me, sorry for the confusion. The setup I postulate couples the idea of a fantastic performing "stock" setup with the option of setting the boost parameters manually for those special occasions, or trips to the track, which is what I meant by my comment "design in a boost lift" for those who want to stick out their tongues and see where it goes before it breaks.

I don't think about Joe Schmoe street racing. I started driving RX2 in the early 70's:D so I can appreciate your thoughts and comments. Ability to adjust boost is great in Supercharging, and especially for race or performance oriented drivers. However, a well thought out factory setting will ensure mega performance for the everybody RX7 driver without having them give it up do to engine failures. Trust me, having ridden Harley-Davidson with the Magna-charger system, if it is set up right it is nothing but fun, and it lasts, or if overdone, well, then your engine will be over-cooked before you can wink.

BTW: Glad to hear that you are into racing, so am I, and I can hardly wait to hear the good news that a low priced Supercharger is finally deliverable.

Cheers and Good Luck on the track!! :cool:

if we get a good discount and the kit is priced under 1k, then im in, but will us na guys have to upgrade injectors and fuel pump? and once again, FRANK, what are the possibilities of using this with nitrous? thanks .

but like i said, if its under 1 k, count me in for sure

Pressure sensor will definately have to be replaced, and pump and injectors will if the boost is high enough.

You will definately need to upgrade your fuel pump, injectors, your exhaust, and the intake (which will be with the kit). Add ons will more than likely now include a boost regulator, inlet pressure sensor, timing retard computer or module (MSD or Jacobs make them at affordable prices, and, I'm using the JAcobs Rotary Master and it works fantastic with ignition retard/advance controller), air flow meter, alternator upgrade and 0 to 2 guage wiring to the mains. An internal blow off pressure sensor should protect the engine from the mild to the serious runners...set it to the level you expect to be able to handle the boost, as a dual safety feature besides the dial-up control which will be in the cockpit.

You can post the links all you want, Frank, but you still haven't properlly addressed spool up time. Telling us it works because of friction and viscosity doesn't work. My tires work because of friction but inertia still keeps it going foward if i try to turn to hard at high speed. the oppisite will keep the air at rest. if you are serious, you need to GIVE a working prototype to a forum moderator and let them tell us how it works.

There will be vertually no spool up time. I just built a tesla pump out of a 12V RadioShack motor, a tagboard disc, and a cardboard tube. It works. I know this from experience. Try it yourself and then say "Why the hell didn't I think of this myself." It has been my experience that most of the great ideas are rarely anything new, just old stuff figured out by someone who recognized the fact that he'd figured something out. Again, try it. Build your own (admittedly low pressure, very fragile, and very very ghetto) tesla pump.

got any pics of it, im just curios about what yours looks like

sorry, no digi camera. It's really very easy though. Mine is a single disc with gobs of excess clearance. You can get the idea just by shoving a pencil through the middle of a round cut-out and spinning it in your hand. You'll feel the air being blown away from the spinning disc.

just moving it up. 3rd page is no place for this thread

If there is a quality kit already in existance, all that would need to be done is switch out the supercharger

Saw this request. I'm in the Los Angeles area, same as Nelson who desigen the Nelson Supercharger kit. I contacted one of his old employees who will try and put Nelson in contact with me (he has since retired and gotten out of this). I'll see if he still has his molds, templates, etc. that you can leverage into.

Hey Frank,

Just read your message on the TT list.

This is exactly why I said early on "please make a profit." Who cares if you haven't built anything for mass market before. If you have a good product, make a profit. You need to find market clearing price, and go gangbusters.

Now rember you all we can always out trick ourselves but is it pratical , why not use an atkins supercharger? why try to design new tech when what we need is simplicity?

....because of how much that atkins costs. Besides... this tesla supercharger sounds like it could not only perform better but also be much less in price. Why not?

And simpler. Don't forget simpler. The Tesla design has all the simplicity you could possibly want.