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scathcart, I already have T2 rotors, since I own a T2. Hence my screen name. I am planning on a big turbo upgrade anyway, and if this can give me the higher boost levels I want without the lag associated with larger turbos, I will consider going with this. I am a firm believer in having a system capable of putting out more than you ask of it, so that it makes it more reliable. Am I going to run insane boost levels? No. Am I going to run more than 8? Yes. The reason I am looking for a system capable of 20 is so that I know I won't be straining it when I ask it for 15.
The thing that I am concerned with, if there really is "zero lag" on this, won't that cause the engine to run incredibly lean at first, causing detonation? Maybe building in a little lag is a good thing. |
i think we need to get a pump and start doing the time honored technique of 'guess and check' ;)
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Wonderful, finally some new technology for us!(not that there's anything wrong with turbo or NO2) But I think it'll be great to explain this to the local kiddies and ricers, and watch their brains explode! Can't wait till this gets done, I'm already saving. And if you need a test vehicle,(even if i don't get anything in return) I'm in Md and i'm used to being without my car!... been 8 months now, but sooooon:crzyeye:
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The thing that I am concerned with, if there really is "zero lag" on this, won't that cause the engine to run incredibly lean at first, causing detonation? Maybe building in a little lag is a good thing. |
Here's another concept: For those people who have a turbo already, can you modify the intake housing to accept these disks rather than the regular turbo insert? That way you are using the efficiency of the bladeless rotors without drawing on the electrical output.
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thats an intreasting idea, how fast to turbo's spin at? rpm i mean, just a rought idea
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If you're going to do that you'd be better off using 2 tesla turbines for the turbine and compressor side of the "turbo" since this thing is so efficent. Basically 2 separate units connected via a shaft just like a turbo. This "new" technology (circa 1911) is pretty amazing to me. I've spent the last 5 days reading and researching as much as I can about these things. Sounds like your company has their foot firmly planted in the door Frank. This supercharger is a great way to get the TT into the edge of the tunnel vision of the general public. I'd love to see the traditional IC engine "recycled" so we can build more TT's to replace them. :D
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Anyway we can make this a sticky?
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Wow I just read this from start to finish and am impressed. I would love to add some extra kick to my 7.
I can't wait to see what becomes of this.. very exciting :D |
Originally posted by JasonL Anyway we can make this a sticky? We need less stickies, not more. |
would you need to run a bov with this?
also for safey messures, would running a "wastegate" of sorts be useful to bleed of extra boost? |
Since it'll be electronically controlled, neither a BOV or wastegate should be neccessary. If boost starts to exceed its dial setting, the motor should slow down, instantly (almost) reducing boost to match the new disc speed.
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bloody hell this sounds interesting, and even sounds like it *might* not just be pie in the sky :D
no lag and boost off idle sounds *excellent* to me... if only it was a reasonably priced commercial product I could bolt in when my stock turbo shits itself... Charlie |
if this thing is so efficient.. and simple.. and better in every way.. why hasnt someone done it before? i mean.. car companies have millions of dollars in R&D.. why havent they seen this thing if it was invented in 1911?
i think its a good idea not to get your hopes up, its always good to have a healthy amount of skeptisism... |
Originally posted by FoXX if this thing is so efficient.. and simple.. and better in every way.. why hasnt someone done it before? i mean.. car companies have millions of dollars in R&D.. why havent they seen this thing if it was invented in 1911? i think its a good idea not to get your hopes up, its always good to have a healthy amount of skeptisism... |
Originally posted by FrankGermano IT works by adhesion and viscosity. It is the tendency of a fluid or gas trying to "stick" to the metal of the disks. The disk spacing (how far they are spaced appart, internally) determines both the compression and the flow rate (slip). The size of the volute housing also determines the volume that the unit can pump and at what pressure. The air or fluid is "sucked" in through the central openings in the disks (the disk pack or rotor) and then rapidly accellerated through the disk pack and thrust outwards but not by centrifical force, rather by centrifugal action - the fluid is still trying to adhere to the surface of the disks. This causes a very large volume of air or fluid - dependant on disk diameter and volute sizing - to be available for active use in the system. Think of this - how much active surface area is there in a standard screw impellor or even something like a rotary impellor (i.e. Paxton and Vortech units)? Not very much. In the same space, however, with a Tesla-type bladeless disk system, you have many disks, with both sides of the disks "active"...so...the formula for available energy transfer would be the diameter of the disks, times two (both sides) and using standard area of a circle calculations, you can see that the given area inside of a bladeless disk sysem is much larger (thus more ability to perform useful "work") than anything else on the market, to date. Again, see http://www.frank.germano.com/tesla_turbine.htm for full descriptions. Then jump around to the rest of the site to see how we apply this technology. A better mouse trap? Yep. Now...the same basic unit is really two different units. When the unit is powered, it becomes a pump or blower or compressor or vacuum pump...when the fluid or gas is powering the unit, it becomes a turbine or radial engine. The only difference in design is the casing. In the pump mode, there is a spiral volute that allows the fluid to be accellerated to a nearly uniform velocity, gas or fluid entering at the center of the disk pack and thrust outwards to the periphery of the disks and exiting the spiral volute, with its maximum roughly equivellent to one half the velocity at the periphery of the disks, at a given pressure approximated by the volume of the volute itself. In the turbine/radial engine mode, gas is admitted at the periphery and through adhesion and viscosity, causes the disk pack/rotor to spin, and then exits at the center through porting in the center of the disk pack/case. No spool up lag time...it is virtually instantaneous, as is the compression/psi avialable. No delicate veins to get bent up or destroyed. No heat build up - energy is transfered into the disks. In turbine mode, at roughly 85 degrees F inlet temperature, a drop to 32 degrees F is seen at the outlet (running on compressed air charge). It in effect, is a heat sink. I could keep going, and get extremely technical with the information - but - this is an RX-7 forum, not the Tesla Turbine forum. Go to the website for the technical side...I'll concentrate on building the supercharger in the most adaptable way we can. I'll be off-line for most of this week doing just that, because I can't build the darn thing typing on the internet! ;) Stay tuned to this thread for updates. Gotta go... Frank |
For answers as to "why" the Tesla Turbine hasn't been picked up by major manufacturing firms and companys, see my website - http://www.frank.germano.com or TEBA's site http://www.execpc.com/~teba . Since this is an RX-7 forum, I will keep my posts directly related to that end of the spectrum. You can join our Tesla Turbine Yahoo List and go through thousands of posts for your direct questions and answers, and you can find that link on my site, as well. Prototypes? We have many working models and products, as do a few other companies...it's really all a matter of finding serious investor funding. We HAD the funding, prior to 9/11/01...that got litterally blown to hell, no pun intended. The investment environment is more skeptical now, especially since we (ITP) are concentrating on water power, hydrogen as fuel, and offering increadible efficiencies. What is water composed of? Hydrogen and Oxygen - and - with our patented process for splitting water into Hydrogen and Oxygen efficiently - this starts to scare allot of "big" companies - again...the infrastructure is not yet there to support this radical approach, unless we break in with smaller "niche" markets, and then attack the larger issues. We have many projects in the works, and this (supercharger for the RX-7) is just one of them. With 22,000 plus subscribers to this forum, if I only capture 3-5% attention and maybe 1-2% in actual sales of units...I'd be a pretty happy person. Don't concern yourselves as to whether or not the units (Tesla Turbine and Pump) "work" as they do...that fact is beyond dispute...let's just see if I can make one "work" on an RX-7's Wankel engine. I saw a thread that suggested retrofitting a bladeless diskpack into an existing turbocharger frame - that would not work as the case is entirely different. Impellor vs flat, round disks with central openings - can't be done. However, using the turbocharger AND supercharger and common shaft idea might be feasable. Lot's of engineering ideas and so little time...I'll post more as I have it for you. Thanks.
Frank |
so your looking for funding for this project?
just out of curiosity, how many digits is the funding your looking for? |
For full funding and commercial launch of the bladeless disk engine, the pumping systems, the hydrogen powered engine/power systems, the vortex/implosion drive systems - basically every single item that would capture a full market launch and insure a very high market capture, we are in need of approximately an additional 5 to 7 million dollars. For details on exactly "what" these systems are: CMT, CMP, FreshCool conditioning systems, and powergeneration systems (wave power, water flow powered, deep well recovery systems) go to http://www.frank.germano.com/gi2.htm and you might just get your socks blown off that we are offering an investor an "in" at this low price - everything is on hold but everything is also ready for a full market launch, as well.
Anyway...just had my mechanic add a few more "goodies" to the RX-7. Man, these new Recaro Orthoped power seats are nice! Frank Frank Dominic Germano President & Co-founder Germano Industries, Inc. International Turbine And Power, LLC 931 Rumsey Avenue, Box 550 Cody, Wyoming 82414 www.frank.germano.com frank@germano.com Frank Dominic Germano HC 1, Box 1887 Tafton, PA 18464 Favorite Vehicle: 1988 Mazda RX-7 GTU N/A - Automatic - Steel Blue Metallic Paint, Air Conditioning, B&M customized short-throw auto shifter w/electronic OD, Custom 2.5" Downpipe, Bonez Superflow Cat, Custom 2.5" Cat-back with Dual Stainless Steel "Supertrap" Free-Flow Tunable Mufflers. Trunk Release, Power Sunroof, Power Windows, Cruise Control, Dual Storage Bins, Remote Keyless Entry, Bulldog Alarm, Momo steering wheel, Rear Window Louvers, 16" Centerline wheels w/Goodyear Eagle 50's, Custom made Wing on rear, KYB shocks and struts, Eibach Springs, CP Racing Strut Tower Bar, BeCool Radiator, B&M transmission and oil Coolers, Dual Electric Fans, Blue Recaro “Orthoped” power seating, Custom fabricated Rollbar w/5-point Seatbelt Harness w/quick release. Gauges: All AutoMeter “Pro-comp” white face gauges - 5” Super-Comp Memory Monster Tachometer; 5” Speedometer, fuel level, fuel pressure, amps, volts, water temperature, oil temperature, oil pressure and outside temperature, air/fuel ratio; Two “Pillar Pods” for additional gauges. Ignition: JACOBS "Rotary Master" Electronic Ignition system w/Jacobs Ultra Coils - Leading and Trailing, Jacobs Energy Core Ceramic wires/plug boots, IBM ThinkPad A21M Laptop 850 MHz controlling engine functions with custom programming map and Dyno-mite Dynomometer. On-board GPS Navigation with "Delorme Topo 4 USA" programing, DVD drive access to stereo system. Lighting: Hella Halogen Daytime Running Lights, Hella Euro Halogen H-4 110/85 Conversion Lights (main pop-ups), PIAA 80 series Pro XT w/Dual filament 135/90 watt H-4 superwhite bulbs, PIAA's 1700 Platinum Series Plasma Blue Fog Lights, PIAA 1400X High-output 55 watt XTRA Halogen Driving Lights. Electrical: Ultra-high Output "customized" Alternator with "0" gauge JACOBS wiring on main runs, dual JACOBS headlight intensifier system, Dual Optima Red-Top Batteries - both hatch area mounted. Stereo System: JBL Chameleon CD stereo, Apple I-Pod MP-3 Player, w/JBL dual 4" front, JBL dual 6" rear and dual 12" JBL Subs in Custom Enclosure, 450 watt Crown Powerbase Amp on mains, 600 watt Crown Powerbase on Subs, "Monster Cable" on all with Custom AC/DC Inverter. Coming Soon: Tesla Bladeless Disk Supercharger and Intercooler. Mariah “Mode Six” Body Kit with RE Amemiya front bumper w/ sleek light conversion. Hella 6000K Type II HID Conversion Kit... License Plate: “GERMANO” Odometer: 135,000+ 1/4 Mile: Not tested...YET! Other rides: 2003 Mitsubishi Spyder GTS convertible; 2000 ML-320 Mercedes-Benz SUV; 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee; 2000 Jeep Cherokee |
When's the IPO?
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Frank. just for the sake of scrolling, can you please shortin up your sig? Just tell use the really cool stuff ;)
If this unit works as good as you say. I think you will find that you will have more orders then you originally intended and find this 'nitch' market is one hell of a big nitch. As soon as i show up on race day with one of these things, everyone is going to want one. You know what they say. "Race on sunday, sell on monday." how do you have your laptop hooked up to your car? are you running DFI or just hooked up to the diagnostic plug? I want to see a pic of your car! |
Frank, one way you could get your name out is by providing a sponsership for a university. Every year, at UC (cincinnati), we build a race car (smaller than a car, larger than a go-kart) and enter it in a competition. There aren't any restrictions on the type of motor used, only the displacement and the size of resctrictor plate used. If we were to use such an efficient engine, I'm sure we would destroy other engines of equal measures. If the winning engine was a tesla turbine, that might pique some interests. Just a though :)
Aaron |
OC - the IBM thinkpad is hooked through the serial port to a Dyno-Mite dynomometer plug. This system was originally intended to go on Jet-skis, 4-wheelers, snowmobiles and the like for race diagnostics. The customized software allows all parameters of the engine's functions to be monitored, adjusted on-the-fly, and recorded for fine tuning each run in a race. We modified it and then tied it directly into the RX-7 harness. It wasn't that hard to do...lest we forget that the stock ecu is a program from 1988...this is 2002...allot has changed/improved/happened since then in the computer realm! It sure as hell made a huge difference in how the car ran, even though I still end up with that damn "no start" problem and have to yank the plugs - I do have that special part ordered, though, to get rid of that particular problem. It's also nice having true GPS speed read-outs, as well as torque, HP and the like.
Frank (see...no signature, this time ;) ) |
Oh...I would NOT try this unless you are very familiar with setting this type of system up, and have a Haynes Manual depicting the exact wiring schematic of your car. There is nothing left (well, some, but not much) of the stock wiring in my car. The stock gauges are gone, having been changed over to all AutoMeter Pro Comp white faced mechanical gauges. I have the same readouts available on the IBM, but, you sure can't beat good 'ol mechanical gauges for dead-on trustable readings...the space where the gauge pod was now houses most of the AutoMeter stuff, with two PillarPods housing the remaining ones, as well as the Monster Tach right up high on the right side of the main gauge pod. The Laptop sits mounted right above my auto shifter lever in easy reach and easy viewing. Just got an offer from someone on eBay for a complete auto-to-manual conversion (everything needed) for $295.00 including shipping, so I think the auto is going to become a boat anchor! Yippie...hope this helped in the info department.
Frank (again...no signature... ;) ) |
Frank: Forum Rules state that no signature may not exceed 10 lines in length. Please edit your signature accordingly.
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I saw this post a while back in the thread about someone wanting info on my alternator: I basically redesigned the thing and have it pegged at 140amps...you can do it yourself (slightly an "8" on the PITA meter) of buy one from Summit Racing. They've got one that should bolt right on that puts out 110-140amps as well. You might have to fiddle with belt sizes, but that's about it. I do it because I'm running all of those Hella and PIAA lights up front, and the amps I'm using for the stereo are Crown A/C units...so...I needed ALLOT more juice. I highly recommend everyone who runs hotter amp lighting to get the Jacobs Headlight intensifier system (or one from Summit Racing or comperable models) or build your own set of relays and heavier wiring. Fire - unless under control - sucks in a car :)
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Sorry about the "signature" part exceeding the legnth imposed by forum...I was following Aaron's lead. It has been edited and adjusted accordingly.
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that system you useing sounds very much like one of the newer DFI systems, a lot of the systems now allow you to connect a laptop. Pretty amazing that you got a system thats not designed for rotary engines to work :)
now all we need is a program that can recognize the rpm speed since it sounds like we can just use a DFI system to get the RPM speed to the computer. From there it would be ez to write a prog to control the supercarger based off engine rpm. |
I think this is a great idea if you can make a Supercharger that pushes between say 6-15 psi at around say 1000 cfm and make it cost effective then I am in. Shoot as long as its less than 3000 like a camden supercharger hell I say this project is an awsome idea.
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amazing thread, i read the new posts everyday at school, keeps me awake during computer class for once.....
anyways Frank, do u have any pics of your car, with all those mods i'd like to see how ur car looks, engine, interior everything... later guys. -rico- |
so you are making it applicable up to 25 psi? im still not completely sure on how all of that works but you can count me in on buying one. especially if it gives an NA that kind of boost. im definatlely watching the forums on this one!
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so you are making it applicable up to 25 psi? im still not completely sure on how all of that works but you can count me in on buying one. especially if it gives an NA that kind of boost. im definatlely watching the forums on this one!
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You can count me in. I would love to help with the computer area if you need it.
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Until I came accross this Discless turbine, I thought I was a person of intelligence, I guess I'm not as smart as I thought I was. Anyway, is there any kind of "idiots" explaination of how this works? I love reading how stuff works (I tend to read a lot on the rotary). but everything I can find (including the links provided by Frank) are just to damn hard to understand for me. If there was an ANIMATED diagram, that would help. My comprehension has always sucked donkey balls when I'm reading things. I'm much more of a visual person. HowStuffworks.com has saved my booty a few times when explainations, maybe we should e-mail them and ask them to make on of the Tesla turbine.
TIA Dustin |
Interesting stuff...Cant wait to see how this comes out.
Rat |
As far as photos of the car go, I'll snap off some pics and scan them in for all of you to look at. The car was litterally taken appart, item by item, checked out, and then reassembled with new parts and wiring put in where necessary. One of the things that "sold" me on the car was this process - this car is BUILT. Even the way the body is assembled, protected, the wiring runs, everything is top-shelf production. Last night, a fuel cell and high volume race pump was installed, and the basic plumbing for the future bolt in of the supercharger. I wrote a new program to allow control of the unit from inside the cockpit. As far as understanding the Tesla Turbine and Pump further, try these links. Read over the material slowly and carefully - it WILL make sense.
http://www.frank.germano.com/tesla_turbine.htm http://www.frank.germano.com/fluid_propulsion.htm http://www.frank.germano.com/tesla1911patent.htm http://www.frank.germano.com/tesla1921patent.htm http://www.frank.germano.com/improvedmethod_vac.htm http://www.frank.germano.com/lostinventions.htm That should give you the most comprehensive information on the net regarding design, use, and construction and operation of the units. Good reading everyone, and thank you all for the continued support. I'll be away on business over the next several days...I'll post some results probably on Monday/Tuesday. Frank |
thedguy - i was in your boat too.. i didnt understand a dang word.. all of it was written to complicated.. not enough basic understanding for me.. i know how it works now though because i read Teslas patent, he explained it well i think.. better than the others ive seen i believe (no offense Frank).. i just think its easier to understand.
http://www.dogpawz.com/skylos/tesla/1061142.html - the patent |
jmloggedin- "so you are making it applicable up to 25 psi? im still not completely sure on how all of that works but you can count me in on buying one. especially if it gives an NA that kind of boost. im definatlely watching the forums on this one!"
dude if u run that kind of boost on an unmodded na it WILL detonate! even modded, na housings will not be able to handle 25 psi. for just one thing the exhaust ports on an na are not big enough. there are nmany others too. |
i didnt make myself clear i guess.. i meant from 2 to 25.. and i know you cant run that kinda boost on an NA. i MEANT it gives NA the kind of boost that has been discussed. wich was like 6-8 psi.. i meant a boost of speed not psi. sorry wrong context.
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i love this stuff I just got done reading this hole discussion and as soon as you get this done I will buy one I already subscibed to the yahoo forum for the special dicount lol.. but I ve been wanting to put somehting on my car and I understand how this works its pretty simple I dont know hy some of you guys cant get this your basically just forcing air with an electric motor instead of belt driven. And Frank has a system that flows more air more quickly and effieciantly than a supercharger system get it got it good lol.. jk guys just wanted to help with the understanding.. Frank I want one I buy one and give you all the info from my car your going to work hard on this and I want to make sure you get your money first I cant do this stuff so someone has too get paid to do it
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Hey, guys - I need some help and/or some suggestions. for the past three days now, everytime I go to start this beast for the first time in the AM, I end up with a no-start. Pull the fuses (the initial "no start problem") and crank it for about 15 seconds with the accellerator floored...put the fuses back in and it starts right up. I had THOUGHT I defeated this nagging little PITA problem. What might this be indicitive of? Has anyone had this same type of problem, before? I have that part ordered to supposedly elliminate this...hasn't arrived yet. My oil pressure is now at 55-60lbs. at idle. I have replaced the thermowax pellet with MazdaTrix's "dummy plug" (replacement for part #11 plug)...what the hack would continuously cause this cold no-start deal?! Any and all help would be greatly appreciated, especially if it has happened to someone and they know pretty much what it may be that is causing this. Let me guess...my Wankel is about to roast...
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Dirty leaky injectors are a common problem.
Low compression in the engine could be a possibility? The easy band aid is to put a fuel pump switch to kill the pump on start up. There are write ups on here somewhere as to which wires to tap into. JT P.S. where in PA are you? |
The first thing I thought about were the injectors. Got them on order as well. You mean to tell me that THAT tiny amount of gas dripping into the interior of the Wankel will destroy the compression enough to give you problems with cold starts? And I want to supercharge this thing...I think it's time to get a brand new engine from Mazda Trix...
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I dont think it destroys the compression its just to much gas ontop of what the injectors throw in on start up, Plus what ever extra got spit in there on shut down.
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Yeah, the leaky injectors cause a flooded condition basically, they don't wreck compression. (Well, it could I guess, if it washed the oil off the apex seals)
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Well...low and behold - just got the Anti-Flood Module AND the new fuel injectors via UPS...can't wait to see what this little AFM thingy does tomorrow morning. Compression is dead-on what it should be, so it's got to (I HOPE!) be one of these two problems, which, are now being addressed. We should have the supercharger spooling up sometime over the weekend. One little tidbit - it's going to end up being belt driven...after allot of debate about DC electric motor vs belt drive...belt drive has won out due to a number of obvious reasons, mostly due to compatability with engine RPMs and response time/real-time control. For now, looks like either the AC compressor or the air pump are going...if the air pump is the option, there goes passing emition tests for anyone who lives in a "sniffer" test state (inspections) which PA is NOT one of them...
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frank, i think you should start another post for you cold start peoblem. Its getting off topic in this thred. But anyway, have you done a search for that problem in google? i know thats pretty common. But how could that happen if you not useing the stock ECU?
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The ECU (under the passenger side floor) is still somewhat "active". What is tied into the dynomometer and thus the laptop are all CONTROL issues - It is (and I hate to say it this way) piggy-backed into everything. I can over-ride most of the signals and adjust most of the engine functions in real time. Again, the program is for recording and registering engine functions to determine optimum settings. I needed to get as many "normal" figures BEFORE we started doing mods with the supercharger. As I said in the last post, it looks like it will now be definately belt driven. Just have to decide WHERE to put it, and what is going to "go" accessory wise. Sorry about including the no start post to this thread...just figured that so many have been responding to me personally/private messages, this was the quickest way to get a good response/accurate.
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you can pass emition tests with out an air pump. You can even get a cat with no airpump inlet. I think the pump only helps emissions on startup. once everything gets warm, they dont do much. But your going to have problems opening up your 5th and 6th ports in S5 cars with it gone.
Is response time/real-time control the real reason for going to a belt drive unit? With a belt drive, you going to need internal gearing in the SC to get it to spin at the high rpm's needed. Then you going to need a oiling system for those gears, just like a centrifuge charger. The problem with all those extra gears and stuff is going to drive up costs. If you have a variable speed electric motor that will work, i can get a couple of my friends together and we can make you a stand alone system that will take care of SC management. As long as it can spool up reasonably fast, it should work fine. It donsent need to spool down fast, theres other ways around that. But all the electric motors that i know of that can generate that kind of speed (just how fast is this thing going to need to turn?) and torque are quite large and have a pretty good draw. |
Frank if it's going to be belt driven i would definately check out SuperchargedRex's site ( http://www.geocities.com/boatseason/ ) and maybe PM him about the pulley he ordered to get his supercharger to not run into the red on acceleration. he also has a few links to other guys sites who also installed superchargers on there 7's. i think i've even seen an old nelson/paxton installation guide out on the net too.
As far as placement goes it pretty much has to be placed above the air pump near the TB. This also means that you need to fashion a bracket of some sort strong enough to with stand the stress (i've heard of some poor quality ones breaking). |
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