damn I wish I found this thread sooner! I want a TT!!! My 86 base is slow, and a supercharger would rule! I understand how this is going to work, and am very excited to see it working in a car. I'll test it in my car if that's what it has to come to. A cheap supercharger, and can't forget the intercooler. I think I need one of those too, because my rex gets a bit on the hot side sometimes. Not overheating, but the temp gauge scares me sometimes. I want to buy a TT! I'm a customer waiting in line.

That has to be one of the strangest, and most genius turbines I've ever seen. Using a TT in a turbo/super application would make for one hell of an RX...Esp. if it ran all the time, as opposed to the WOT that some people were talking about. Count me in...

any updates frank? what have you come up with so far and have you made any decisions as to the beta testers? Also the discounts for the tt yahoo group and the rx7 forum. Just keep me posted.

after reading all this stuff, i don't know if i could afford it, but hell, i'm def. interested too

Sign me up for one.

Sorry that I haven't been keeping active on watching the posts on this thread. I HAVE been busy working on the supercharger application, however. My partner and I have done some "tinkering" with the basic layout and components necessary to bolt the unit under the hood of the RX-7 and fit in the air inlet system and have it all work and look good. The supercharger, or rather the Tesla based CMP (Centrifugal Molecular Pump) can be designed very quickly. It seems that it is going to fit, and using the custom programming that I am already running from my IBM ThinkPad, we can control it pretty easily. First attempt - I found out (AGAIN - Damn it!!!) that you can't shut off this car without warming it up and expect it to start again. Can we say FLOODED! This time it took me THREE go-arounds with the "pull the spark plugs...pull the fuses...run out the gas...pour in ATF...put the plugs back in...start the car" crap. This is something that someone should find a cure for. Three times doing that is a pain. Anyway, we ARE working on the supercharger and I will keep all of you posted. BTW: 8 psi is more than enough when we are dealing with a Tesla-type unit. Ther AIRFLOW is the key to making the Wankel rotary engine really start performing. At this point, I do not believe that anything more that a fuel pump and regulator will be required, as we are not going to exceed Mazda specs on overloading the internals of the Wankel. Naturally, everyone WILL have to have a free-flow exhaust system to handle the increase, but, that's one of the first things everyone should have done to try and improve performance, as it is. Keep watching this thread for updates as I have them, and thanks for all the interest in International Turbine And Power.

Frank

I want 17 to 20 psi. Will I be able to get that from this?

anti flood module
http://www.our.net.au/~pnt/afm/rx7_RX7.html

In alphabetical order: AEM, Apexi, Autronic, Electromotive, EMS, Haltech, Link, Microtech, Motec, SDS, Wolf.

Alternate ghetto mod: Kill switch for the fuel pump.

Um, so how exactly do you increase the airflow into a positive-displacement engine without increasing the boost? I haven't been reading the news lately, and just wanted to know if Boyle's Law is still valid. ;)

You raise the VE.

How does a supercharger raise VE?

With the different compression ratios of different series rotary engines...

S4 N/A 9.4:1
S4 TII 8.5:1
S5 N/A 9.7:1
S5 TII 9.0:1

Will there need to be 4 different designs made?

(Kindof an info post, if he hadn't found the compression ratios for the various models/series yet)

What is with you guys wanting these sky-high boost numbers?

It's not gonna be fun when all the threads pop up with "I just laid my e-shaft out on the road, what do i do now".

Are you aware how serious 20 psi is? What is all involved on a turbo engine to safely and relaibly produce that, when it already ahs an engine and drivetrain to support it.

6-8psi seems right to me.

quote-"Naturally, everyone WILL have to have a free-flow exhaust system to handle the increase, but, that's one of the first things everyone should have done to try and improve performance, as it is."

This quote does mention increasing VE w/ freeflow (or possibly scavenging?) exhaust.

Really I was just answering your question about increasing airflow w/ out raising boost. Do you really think Boyle's Law is valid in a dynamic system? I think it is for static systems.

So the supercharger will come in a kit with a special exhaust system? How about a new TB, PP housings, high-flow air filter, etc?

As for Boyle's Law not being valid... please just tell me where is all that extra airflow going to go? The engine's volume isn't going to expand like a balloon, LOL. So what happens to all that extra air? :confused:

So the supercharger will come in a kit with a special exhaust system?

I have no idea what he has planned.

How about a new TB, PP housings, high-flow air filter, etc?

Sounds like it could help VE to me?

As for Boyle's Law not being valid... please just tell me where is all that extra airflow going to go? The engine's volume isn't going to expand like a balloon, LOL. So what happens to all that extra air?

Same engine w/ higher VE due to changes in the engine's peripheral systems will flow more intake and EXHAUST. What am I missing?

Like I said I answered your question- Quote-"Um, so how exactly do you increase the airflow into a positive-displacement engine without increasing the boost? I haven't been reading the news lately, and just wanted to know if Boyle's Law is still valid."

Answer- increase VE...

Hey guys, I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible and design something that the "average" RX-7 owner can install without doing thousands upon thousands of dollars in 1.) high performance engine mods, or a totally new engine to handle the boost 2.) Can be easily installed into the engine bay with little technical knowledge 3.) will add a significant performance increase to either a stock N/A OR a turbocharger RX-7 4.) keep the cost of the system down.

With that being stated, IF someone specifically wants a supercharger designed for pure high performance use, it can and will be possible to do so with very little mods to the basic system. Again, what is a Tesla PUMP? It is a high performance, simple, bladeless disk unit that - compared to anything that is out there conventionally (like impellor, compression/piston, screw type pumps) just simply has the capacity for moving a higher volume or fluid/gas than anything else in it's comparitive size/HP rating and range. You want boost? Hell, I can give you well over 4,000 psi if that's the case. IT's been done already.

Ya...I have seen the posts of people wanting high compression ratios - upwards to 20psi...well start running special race gasoline for starters, and have extensive ingition mods or be ready to have the Wankel hit "diesel" mode and burn up, or just blow all the internal seals. You hit around 14:1 ratios and you really have some serious HP gains...that's why I am leaning towards around 8psi total boost for starters. This whole unit - to give you some idea of the "power" available through a Tesla-type bladeless pump and the volume of air it will move - is only going to be 3 1/2 - 4" diameter and contain appr. 10 disks - about the size of a standard coffee mug with the case. It's a trade-off of compact size and increasing RPM's of the unit, OR going to something around a 12-15" diameter unit (around the size of the standard aircleaner assembly on older cars) and have appr. 3-4 disks inside and keep the RPMs down to sub-10,000 RPM range. The more surface area - the lower the RPMs necessary to move a given volume of air at a given compression. Last time - read the history of the design of the unit at http://www.frank.germano.com/tesla_turbine.htm .

As for Boyles Law and VE...what is the Wankel engine? Not too much different (in action) than any other internal combustion engine. It's ingenious - and problematic at the same time, and took one heck of allot of engineering to make it work. A charge of air and fuel in, compression, combustion and exhaust, with energy being transfered to the shaft. IC. This is NOT a turbine, and no where near as efficient. I still say that running IC engines in vehicles is just a big waste of energy - run electric drive...drive a generator with an IC...cut fuel consumption by 2/3...recharge by reactive breaking, solar, the IC...run hydrogen fuel...but...that's not going to happen until the infrastructure can support the superior technology (which has been around for over one hundred years - but - I'll stay off that soapbox for now).

So, what we are really doing is simply increasing the amount of "air" and subs. the fuel, into the Wankel with an increase in compression/psi to give a more dense air/fuel charge. The result is basically an increase in available "energy" in the same space previously. I.e. more HP available in the same engine. Now, that's a big simplification, but it is essentially correct.

If this was going on a I.C. 350 Chevy Engine - no problem...I am still experiancing a learning curve with the Wankel and its associated response to boost and internal pressure, exhaust, control systems and the like. Also, I am doing the engineering (which we would normally charge $250.00 per/hour in engineering time alone to any customer) on my own time and out of my own pocket, until I proove the validity of this project to my partners with ITP. Mazda is of little help and/or interest, as I have yet recieved no response to my emails regarding technical issues. Go figure. This system would probably retro to their RX-8 and leave the competition in the dust. I'll keep everyone posted to progress as I have it. Keep the posts and the comments comming, whether positive or negative - I am certainly not a "know-it-all" by any means, and I can easily go with a better idea.

Frank

Wow, ive seen this thread pop up ontop of the list a few times now and am glad i have finaly read though the entire thing

i would be intreasted in this if it could act like a supercharger and not the "only on at WOT" idea

as for controling it, from what i understand your going to have a chip or something of the like controling it, would this be "tunable"? from what i understand, the only things you can control on this unit is its rpm, say someone had a standalone ems like haltech wolf etc, would there be some way you can use the pwm outputs to control it ?

if this project continues on the positive path ive seen so far, i think ill ditch the idea the massive turbo'd idea i had for my 87 se, and complete the t2 driveline swap, and look into one of these TT's to power my beast

-Jacob

Thanks for the post, Jacob. That is my one tiny little goal. I want to give the "old" RX-7 community a simple add-on unit that will be contolled from inside the cockpit, minimal electronics, low cost, bolt right in to existing engine components, and give a considerable performance/HP increase. It's definately the only way I'll make any money off the project, because, short of full-blown race applications, no one is going to pay upwards of 8-10,000 dollars...but...I'm betting most would pay between 1,200 - 1,500 dollars for a superior bolt on simple system. Besides that, I'm sure there are a number of people that will want to donate their RX-7's for the Beta testing that will have to be performed, as I only have one (so far!), and we will need documented test results and safety figures before we can release it to the public.

Frank

i would donate my mazda to beta testing, but im in the mists of puting a driveline in my car, and its far from running, (no engine, tranny, rear end, half way done on 5lug) but if i suddenly am able to be a part of this project and there is still a need i would love to be a part of it, i just signed up to the yahoogroup mailing list and wasted my entire webdesign class to read the webpages you linked describing the histroy of the bladeless disk.

well, i really should be doing my work so im off

-Jacob

(woohho.. 787 posts!, i just like that #)

To "Gab88N/A...just for the simple fact that you turned me on to this website/company for the flooding problem and the "fix" (http://www.our.net.au/~pnt/afm/rx7_RX7.html )...you are going to get any and all my services with this supercharger that I can throw at you. This was the most valuable info I've gotten to date. With a full-blown team of mechanics and engineers at my disposal, do you think it's at all fun to be pulling spark plugs out and going through that whole "no start proceedure" when you're in a dress suit?! I've just ordered the part! Thanks again.

Frank

To "CrackheadMel"...thanks for going over the website. Now, don't get me started on what we could do with an Implosion/vortex engine...We've based the company around inventions from two men: Nikola Tesla, and Viktor Schauberger. So far...we've concentrated on Tesla...read up on what Schauberger did, and you'll flip! http://www.frank.germano.com/viktorschauberger3.htm . ;) An implosion drive supercharger for the RX-7...naaaa...it'd rip the Wankel appart with the boost. Think of what Schauberger invented as "putting a tornado in a box". We are working on that very product, though, for commercial and industrial large-scale power generating applications.

Frank

Surely you're going to have to upgrade the fuel system of a N/A before adding boost.. new higher flowing injectors which means some sort of fuel computer.. although I think you could put in some stock TII injectors and fuel pump.
How hot is the air coming out of this thing? Im guessing an intercooler will also be needed.. and how about knock sensing / timing in case it starts to ping? The stock pressure sensor is also going to have a spack since it can only detect up to ~3psi.. then you need a new exhaust system, preferably a higher flow intake.. and some sort of blow-off / air bypass valve so the engine doesnt overpressurise..
The poor old N/A is gonna have bits comin off it everywhere.. and I doubt it would cost any less than a total TII engine conversion. oh and dont the 5th/6th ports open at a certain pressure on s5's? could cause some probs there.

However, putting it on a TII is an entirely different story since its designed for boost.

scathcart, just because you're fine with 6-8 doesn't mean some of us don't want more. I know everything that the amount of boost I want to run needs, and just because I want it to be able to produce those numbers doesn't mean I will be running it at that all the time. What would you rather have, a system that can support 17 to 20 that you can run at 12-14 all day easily, or a system that puts out 6-8, but you can't increase it? Since this won't be driven off the exhaust, I can set it for whatever I want, and when the desire warrants it, I can crank it up. That is why I want a system capable of those numbers.

Calm down people, the first step is to make it work. Then you can always make it bigger. My stock turbo is pretty much the same as the turbo on a monster diesal from a tugboat or something, the only real difference is size. I say start small, prove the concept and its validity for this application, then you can make it bigger. as for control, if it's being run of an electric motor then its real easy to control the amount of boost through the current sent to the motor

looking more closely at this, i'm concerened that "spool up time" for lack of a better term might be unacceptably long. not only will there be delay in the disks reaching operating rpm's, but also the inertia of the fluid. to use a simplistic example, if you use a stick to stir a bucked of water it will take a few revolutions to get the water rotating with the stick. even if you start at x rpms instantaneously, you still need to overcome inertia. which brings up another concern. If you spool up the disks too quickly it's going to cause all kinds of turbulence at the vanes seperating the holes which would reduce airflow and further delay optimum boost. Unless you find a solution for this, you'd pretty much need to find a way to leave it on all the time, maybe not at max rpm's but close

Now those last few posts gave me some info. Since it seems that we have two “camps” of RX-7 owners (not to mention if this is also applicable for the 3rd gen car), and since the unit will definitely be running off a DC pancake high RPM motor – I’ll design it so you can have the best of both worlds. We will give you a variable boost from electronically controlled from the cockpit of between 2psi low end and put a cap on it at 25psi. (overkill mode - but -for a full blown race engine - ;) ). I’ll also note that the CFM will be variable, as well. The outlet temperature – however – I am opting to run the air through one of our “FreshCool” systems (and air-to-air conditioner/refrigeration unit) as this lowers the inlet temperature (and thus makes the air charge more dense) considerably. A side benefit for this system is that it will make everything much more simplified. You will basically now have a “pre-intercooled” supercharger. I will address the control issues for fuel. I haven’t gotten into this deep enough to understand what all the stock safeguards are with the car. Let’s see what happens when I hook it up to my standard 88 N/A…it’s got around 40,000 miles on an engine from MazdaTrix, which according to the previous owner did not have many modifications to it, other than their standard rebuild. If it holds, it holds. If not, we’ll address those issues as we discover them. I was planning on ordering one of their top-of-the-line engines, anyway, so I am not all that concerned about ramming it with the unit once it's ready.Gotta go.

So what you're now saying is...

There will be 1 unit for all camps? An intercooled (more like regridgerated) supercharger, with a variable output, from 2 to 25 PSI?

2 questions. Will the unit be RPM activated? Or can it be run as long as the car is on? (electronic things usually don't like that)

This sounds awesome, and I guess I'm now officially IN

Back to reading more about this Tesla thing ;)

I like that, i dont think i would be hitting the 25psi but 15 sounds pretty nice


i was thinking on the way home, this may have already been brought up/addressed but heres my thought any ways

because this is going to be electronicly controled and is having nothing to do with the exhaust, as soon as i hit the gas i could have this thing start spinning up, im not sure how fast your expecting to get to its intended rpm, but if i could have 10-15psi by 2000 rpm or earlier, that would be ensainly fast and crazy


i was talking about this for a majority of the time i was in class today and got a few non-rx7 owners intreasted, if this does go somewhere and is available for other cars, your going to make alot of money

-Jacob

Jacob, thanks for the comments. Money is always an issue when you are in business. This is what we (International Tubine And Power, LLC) do - we find a niche market and we attack it using bladeless disk, vortex and implosion technologies. First, from many prior questions in the posts, let me address this "spool up time" issue. I keep including web ref. to my site - one more time - http://www.frank.germano.com/thecompany.htm , http://www.frank.germano.com/tesla_turbine.htm , and http://www.bladeless.net
Once you understand the Tesla turbine and pump, you will not address the issue anymore. The spool up time will be virtually instantaneous - as fast as the electric motor can run - no "lag time" like a conventional screw, bucket, or other type of impellor driven compressor/pump. The compression (or rather the psi output) will be instantaneous, as well. The control package will have to be programed to give a set amount of boost based on a percentage of dialed-in boost set by the driver (adjustable from let's say 5 to 25psi). This must be coordinated with the Wankel's RPM at any given boost. That's not very difficult. I still need to address what the internal limitations are in the engine, itself, the fuel system delivery, the CFM in the exhaust stream, etc...and then design the system to opererate at a "given" boost and psi/cfm at a "given RPM range. Simple. Yea...right...! ;)

So if this disk turbine has no lag and will not stop producing boost...then with a built high reving turbo engine and a good stand alone fuel managment system you could easily pull through the quarter mile at 12000rpms@108mph in second gear. This definitely sounds interesting. :D

"I will address the control issues for fuel."

Frank, dont worry about fuel control. There is so many after market systems that all ready have that taken care of. They read intake manifold pressure and want the o2 sensor says and adjust fuel accordingly. All you have to worry about is making that intake manifold pressure :)

First off, I run higher than 6-8 psi.
All I'm saying is that you guys may wanna actually feel what 6-8 psi feels like before you go bolting on 20 psi to an engine that simply cannot handle it. Apparently, you don;t know everything that amount of boost requires.
If you want those kinds of boost levels, then be prepared to convert to lower compression rotors (IE: a TII motor). The NA compression ratio will likely cause compression ignition (diesel motor style, hardcore detonation) at anything over 12 psi.
It would be easier to just sell your NA and buy a TII, which already comes prepared for high boost levels.

As for the ability to crank up boost, almost every boost controller has two pre-programmed boost stettings, so you can increase your boost at the push of a button. It is very easy to run 12 psi on your wastegate, then use the EBC to up the boost when you want.
So I have a system that can run 17-20 psi, but runs 10 psi when I want it to, and can increase the boost from there.

25 psi adjustability.... we're goona be seeing a lot of "my rotor housing just blew out it's side!" threads...

An included FMU would save a LOT of engines.

and Frank, since all of these units will be going on NA's, 25 psi is WAY too much. You said so yourself.

all that you should need for fuel control would be an upgraded fuel injectors and fuel pump + fuel control.
http://www.sdsefi.com/

these people make a fuel only system thats pretty cheap. Other people might want a system that controls ignition as well.

I agree that this might cause alot of problems with detonation and misuse. Alot of people are gonna want "just a little more boost" (I know, I've got a TII :D). I think for right now, the project with the charger itself should be the hot topic. Someone might have to delay the process a little and test this idea out with a piggyback or some other type of fuel management before any plans are made to offer it as a complete package.
Off that topic though, it's awesome to see people coming up with ideas that aren't "electric chargers" and "tornado" ideas. Thanks for bringing this idea to the table for us, and I'm sure all the NA guys (and even a few TII guys like me) are checking this thread daily to see what kind of progress is being made.

so, how is a TII engine 'prepared' for high boost levels other then low compression rotors? Obviously, NA engines wont be running the big boost numbers for that reason alone. Can any of our engines handel 20+ psi? i think the purpose of having a suepercharger that has more potential then your current engine is that it can be put on a different engines in different cars.

maybe is should come with a warning..
like

"this cup of coffee is hot. dont spill it in your lap"

or

The amount of boost possible from this unit far exceeds what you engine is capable of.

Reinforced end housings is the other major one, other than the compression ratios. TII engines will handle 20 psi with very little done to them. 3rd gen motors will easily handle 20 psi.
No one is gonna be running 20 psi with 9.7:1 compression and have their engine live more than 5 minutes.

Last I checked, you could bolt a turbo unit onto another vehicle with a proper exhaust manifold. It's the same for a supercharger, you need a different mounting bracket for each engine.

I totally agree with OC, a warning is needed.
You will need alot of fuel to run big number(PSI). The brake specific fuel comsumption of a wakel engine (forced induction) is higher than a cylinder type engine.


By the way Frank, no problem for the link to the anti flood module.

maybe not even injectors... a lot of the current centrifugal superchargers just use a tunable FMU, which is just a fancy RRFPR. A lot cheaper, and would bolt on without the need for dyno tuning.

i think 20 is too much but 8 is too little, somewhere around 14-16 is good for me, iv been in faster cars, and thats what i would like for my rex.

i second, or third the motion on the warning idea, i can already hear my friends complaing that they turned it to "max" just for "fun" and blew up there car


well that almost instint "spool up" sounds great, i would love to get turbo hp with a n/a power curve

i dont think this is taken out of context but..what do you mean? nobody is going to run one of these with another form of forced induction? or these are being designed for 6port motors? ( i dont see why it couldnt be put on a 4port but id rather not assume and just ask)

just from the direction this thread has taken in the day ive been following it, ive pretty much convinced myself that when i get my car together (whenever that happens)


as for fuel, if one went haltech, couldnt you just map your fuel accorind to manafold pressure as if you had a turbo (again, asking not assuming)
i know that one major goal is to make this a bolt on with as little modification's needed to make its availablity more wide spread, but just a thought



oh well, some more random thoughts
-Jacob

FrankGermano you have a pm

Dont calculate against RPM to set boost. Caclulate against a pressure sensor. If actual pressure is below dial pressure, speed the unit up, if actual pressure is higher than dial pressure, slow the unit down. With a little fuzzy logic you should have a unit that can bolt in and be wired up to any car with the correct size intake ducting.

I can't see anyone converting a Turbo engine to this type of forced induction... but who knows? If it is as good as he says it is, then I can see some turbo people jumping on the bandwagon, except maybe for the cost...

heres a supercharged N/A setup. might give you some ideas for mounting etc.

http://www.geocities.com/boatseason/pics.html

i think i am missing something here. how does this supercharger build boost? i am guessing its a supercharger since its gonna be belt driven (right?) so that would make it a supercharger, but from all these diagrams i'm reading, it looks like a supercharger/turbocharger... i've been reading the website about this concept but i cant seem the grasp it. can someone give me a rurndown on how this contraption actually works and why it will hold up to high rpms better than a normal supercharger? thanks

It doesnt work from a belt, its actualy powred by an electric motor

it works by friction/cyintrifical force from my understanding, the disks are placed very close togther, holes in the center alow air to enter the center, spin the disk at a fast rpm and air is pushed outwards, from what i understand then its just going to be constructed inside what would look like a cold side of a turbo housing

IT works by adhesion and viscosity. It is the tendency of a fluid or gas trying to "stick" to the metal of the disks. The disk spacing (how far they are spaced appart, internally) determines both the compression and the flow rate (slip). The size of the volute housing also determines the volume that the unit can pump and at what pressure. The air or fluid is "sucked" in through the central openings in the disks (the disk pack or rotor) and then rapidly accellerated through the disk pack and thrust outwards but not by centrifical force, rather by centrifugal action - the fluid is still trying to adhere to the surface of the disks. This causes a very large volume of air or fluid - dependant on disk diameter and volute sizing - to be available for active use in the system. Think of this - how much active surface area is there in a standard screw impellor or even something like a rotary impellor (i.e. Paxton and Vortech units)? Not very much. In the same space, however, with a Tesla-type bladeless disk system, you have many disks, with both sides of the disks "active"...so...the formula for available energy transfer would be the diameter of the disks, times two (both sides) and using standard area of a circle calculations, you can see that the given area inside of a bladeless disk sysem is much larger (thus more ability to perform useful "work") than anything else on the market, to date. Again, see http://www.frank.germano.com/tesla_turbine.htm for full descriptions. Then jump around to the rest of the site to see how we apply this technology. A better mouse trap? Yep. Now...the same basic unit is really two different units. When the unit is powered, it becomes a pump or blower or compressor or vacuum pump...when the fluid or gas is powering the unit, it becomes a turbine or radial engine. The only difference in design is the casing. In the pump mode, there is a spiral volute that allows the fluid to be accellerated to a nearly uniform velocity, gas or fluid entering at the center of the disk pack and thrust outwards to the periphery of the disks and exiting the spiral volute, with its maximum roughly equivellent to one half the velocity at the periphery of the disks, at a given pressure approximated by the volume of the volute itself. In the turbine/radial engine mode, gas is admitted at the periphery and through adhesion and viscosity, causes the disk pack/rotor to spin, and then exits at the center through porting in the center of the disk pack/case.

No spool up lag time...it is virtually instantaneous, as is the compression/psi avialable. No delicate veins to get bent up or destroyed. No heat build up - energy is transfered into the disks. In turbine mode, at roughly 85 degrees F inlet temperature, a drop to 32 degrees F is seen at the outlet (running on compressed air charge). It in effect, is a heat sink. I could keep going, and get extremely technical with the information - but - this is an RX-7 forum, not the Tesla Turbine forum. Go to the website for the technical side...I'll concentrate on building the supercharger in the most adaptable way we can. I'll be off-line for most of this week doing just that, because I can't build the darn thing typing on the internet! ;) Stay tuned to this thread for updates. Gotta go...

Frank

That is if you want to get work from the turbine, if you want to make it a blower, u have to provide work:

Aaron