Ice_Wolf

Well, as of now I've got an 87 GXL, and I want to make it faster... obviously. I know of the simple 13BT swap, and also of the 13B-RE, REW, and 20B swaps. Also, there's the major choice of peri and bridge port motors. Now, here's what I'm trying to come up with. I want to make the car faster and I'm wondering what your guy's opinions are on the different choices. I've seen insanely fast builds of all of these motors, but what are we talking in difficulty of doing these builds/swaps? Obviously the 20B is a very pricey and difficult swap, and really the 13B-RE motor isn't much of a swap since the 13B-REW motor is better and costs less usually. How tough is the REW swap and what would I be looking at for price? Should I maybe try to build a really strong N/A setup with a peri port such as crispeed's car? Obviously problems with that are that I'll need to string TII drivetrain parts int with it so that I could handle the HP since N/A can't handle much and a good peri port setup requires quite a bit of engineering. Is the 13BT setup going to be my best option? I would love to hear your opinions on this, as it's something I've been debating for a long time now. Thanks.

Icemark

what is your budget?

RotorHead87

Basically you wanna start off with what icemark said. Where did you get info that the 13B-REW was better and cost less than 13B-RE? If you want to make everything alot just a bit simple with less headaches just get a 13BT motor and be done with it.

Ice_Wolf

Well, for simplicity's sake, let's say I have unlimited money. I'm more interested in the basic costs and work involved in doing each of these motor swaps. We don't need to go into specific detail about costs or what it's going to take to swap the drivetrain, I'd just treally like to know what's involved. From what I read about the 13B-RE, it sounded like it was an inferior engine to the REW, but please, elaborate on this. Like I said, I want to hear everyone's opinions about it. Details and estimated prices on each of the swaps, and gains that I'd be expecting out of them would be really nice. I know of course the 13BT would be the easiest swap to do, and that it's the most practical. But I'd like to explore all my options before I stick to one thing. Thanks for the info guys.

anewconvert

iTrader: (1)

20B is expensive. REW is difficult to get into an FC without cash. RE is less so. Bridging a 6 port for NA or a 13BT would be easier and more cost effective as the engine already belongs in the FC.


If I were in your shoes I would stick witht he engine that belongs in the car. Find a TII that has popped its engine, get the engine rebuilt with a full or half bridge and either continue with the turbo, or go NA. In either case its simpler to get the TII cause it already has the beefed up drive train, and its simpler to stick with the engine that belongs in there because you already have all the bits needed to make it work.


BC

bigdongsr94

what i spent for my 13bt s4 swap into my 86 GXL

motor 1200 shipped
tranny 50
driveshaft 80
downpipe 100
pressure sensor 25
turbo ecu 100
ebay intercooler pipes 50?
ebay block off plates 25
evo VIII intercooler 40
Fuel pump 75

extras included entire rear after I broke my NA as well as radiator and a lot of fab work including the rest of the exhaust intake and other parts plus all necessary gauges Now i prob have more than 4000 with new wheels and tires. I bought things when I saw a good deal so I could imagine you could spend double of what i did easily. But this is what i recommend

bigdongsr94

oh also clutch fly wheel and e fan 400. And yes I really did get a tranny for 50 but I got a lot of this stuff together from Logan on this forum.

This is an easy swap and you dont have to worry about the sensors and things that newer motors have. Just eliminate everything.

Messenger87

Hmm this will be an interesting thread to watch. I am doing a N/A to TII swap due to a blown rotary in an 87. i am still doing alot of research myself but i do know that i can probably get ahold of multiple front clips @ or around a thousand apiece.( Engine, Tranny, ECU, Wiring harness, and Dash with gauges, along with of course all the front body panels.) my only worries are the s4 to s5 differences and ofcourse the N/A to TII differences with the rearend and the suspension.

Beep777

http://www.torquecentral.com/forumdisplay.php?f=11

Expand your mind.

B

Ice_Wolf

Well, let's see. From what I've read, the 20B swap is proably gonna be out of the question due to it's cost. I know for sure that you won't get a 20B into an FC running properly for less than 7 or 8k roughly. There's some custom fab work involved, not to mention some serious re-wiring if I remember correctly. Going the RE or REW route seems to not be worth the money you'd spend on parts since they don't put out that much more power than a 13BT with pretty mild modifications. IIRC, an RE or REW swap is going to cost at least 3k, but more towards the 4k mark and is going to require a small amount of work to make the engine fit and function properly. I really won't go into the V8 swap, and trust me, I've looked into it quite a bit. My reasoning behind not going V8 is because I like the uniqueness of the rotary engine, plus if I wanted a V8, I'd buy a foxbody Mustang. And of course there's also the possibilty of peri porting an N/A, but if I remember right this costs a decent amount of money and takes quite a bit of tuning and engineering to build a peri port engine. A bridge port is much more possible, but doesn't produce the numbers a peri port motor does IIRC. Any other information you guys can provide to me would be awesome. I'd like to hear all the pros and cons of each of the swaps before I stick to one thing. Thanks.

Gilgamesh

lol hand hisonsupercars your car and aboud 7k and you get about 320 to the wheels on a stout motor.

lnlycrpr

i'd go with bigdong on this one. i spent right around the same price he did for a very simple easy to do plug and play swap. it's the best bang for the buck and if you plan on doing it yourself you'll learn alot about your car. it's less of a headache and much cheaper than your other options.

like icemark said think about the price/budget. simplicity sake is one thing, but you need to really be serious about what your going to do with this car also. are you going to pay someone for the time and labor? do you plan on driving a 500hp monster everywhere you go? for more detailed info on your swap options look up REted's website. fc3spro.com or look into kevin's website for the 13bt swap rotaryresurrection.com

Ice_Wolf

Alright, I just did a bit of reading, and it looks like the REW swap isn't really worth doing and that you'd be better off going with the Cosmo RE over it since it's easier to fit and would probably cost less. But from what I'm reading, the 13BT still has close to the same power potential and comes pretty close to what the RE and REW offer. The 20B seems to not be an insanely difficult swap, but obviously parts are going to cost you out the ***. From the looks of it, best bets are gonna be going N/A buildup or 13BT. With the leftover money that I'd save doing a 13BT swap over an RE or REW, I could put it into the motor. The plans are to buy a motor and put it on an engine stand to build up over a period of time. This is by no means a rushed project. I'm just looking at my options and the details on each of the swaps and what the potential is for each of the engines. Any other suggestions or opinions guys?

Richter12x2

iTrader: (1)

Isn't slammedblk7 getting like 600 hp out of his 13BT? I can't imagine you'd want much more than that.

Ice_Wolf

Yea, that's true. Any more HP than that and you'd basically need to build the car as a full drag car with cage, slicks, etc before you'd get any traction. I'd like to get my car up to at least 300 HP and be able to beat on it without worry. My main want out of this project is to build a motor capable of high RPM's. I know that a stock rotary is easily capable of 8k RPM, so 9k RPM would be an awesome mark to shoot for. From what I've read, it sounds like all the rotary motors will bolt to the same turbo drivetrain so that's cool. That basically means if I do the 13BT swap and build a strong drivetrain to match, I could always do the other swaps in the future if I really wanted to. From what it sounds, all the motors are relatively the same build, just that they have stronger internals or another turbo besides to 20B of course. Since they're all relatively the same, it would mean they all have approximately the same power potentials. So as of this moment, I'm leaning towards the 13BT swap for that fact. The peri port idea would be really cool, but from what I can tell, it may be beyond my machining and budget to have one built, not to mention they require some pretty precise tuning.

Richter12x2

iTrader: (1)

John Garcia, one of the guys I autocross with uses a 13B in his racecar. I said "What's the redline on it?" He says "I try to shift before I get to 12 grand."

To do this, you're looking at increasing oil flow, perfectly balancing and lightening the e-shaft and rotors.

Plus, from what I hear, peripheral ports suck for driveability. I think the guy above even uses a bridgeport - I may be wrong.

Oh, FWIW, he may go through 3 engines a year. And that's on a pure racecar - so he's basically getting in the neighborhood of 200-500 miles between rebuilds.

dwb87

iTrader: (22)

I am still in the process of my JDM 13BT swap. I would go 13BT... but if I knew how to do the 13B-RE swap, I would have.

Ice_Wolf

Yea, that's what I was thinking. From what I remember reading, PP motors aren't supposed to be street cars by any means since they idle so high and so loud. And yes, also if I remember right they don't last that long either, much like a stroker cylinder motor. Any other ideas?

Ice_Wolf

Well, let's see. Looks like a PP motor and 20B have been ruled out of the picture. PP motor being ruled out because I'd like to have something that I can still drive on the highway and cruise through town with. Seems like a PP motor would basically be a track motor and that's not what I'm looking for. I'd like to still be able to drive to work or school. 20B ruled out basically because of it's cost. I'm sure we all know they ain't cheap for parts or the motor itself, not to mention having to run a standalone. The RE and REW are still up in the air but seem to be being taken out due to the 13BT having similar power capabilities and decently cheaper to swap. Any last thoughts on this?

anewconvert

iTrader: (1)

You need to read about swapping a REW into the FC chassis. Its pretty much pointless due to cost and ability of the 13bt. See the FAQ.


BC

Ice_Wolf

Thanks for refering me to that. I've looked through the FAQ before but hadn't seen that. Yea, it looks like an REW swap is pointless and that you're almost better off just doing a 20B swap and spending the extra money on it. An RE swap is still possible if I remember reading right since it uses the same mounts at the 13B IIRC. But even still, I'm sure the RE motor isn't that cheap either and the 20B would still be a better choice. Looks like I've got it narrowed down to the 13BT swap then.

Richter12x2

iTrader: (1)

Not to mention one of the biggest mods to the 13B-RE TT is to replace the sequential twin turbos with a larger single turbo - even Mazda did this for the Spirit cars. By the time you do that, what would your gains be over using a regular 13BT with a bigger turbo and a front mount intercooler, since it's basically the same engine?

I'm new to the turbo scene, but I'm going to bet what you want is a 13BT with a large streetport, aftermarket turbo (about 400 million people will probably be able to tell you what kind) and a front mounted intercooler. If you shoot for 300-350hp you ought to be faster than almost everything out there, and still streetable and at least reasonably dependable.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

i'd say, stay away from LARGE street ports on a single turbo. It will be near imposible to pass emmissions, and you will have blow-by from the port being open too long. The trick is to smooth out the stock ports for better air flow.

Dustinali

iTrader: (10)

I have a complete popped S4 turbo II assembly for $1000. I have diff, axles, driveshaft, engine and trans still attached, harness, computer, AFM, Boost sensor, Turbo, Intercooler, and starter harness. Pm me your email address and I will email you pics if interested.

Dustin

Richter12x2

iTrader: (1)

That's a sweet deal - you might want to clarify that "popped" doesn't equal "blown engine"