Now THIS is a reasonable explanation.

Trying to tell us that the V8 will be lighter, and more reliable, and will help you find the Holy Grail like some of you insist, is not.

He's going into the swap knowing fully well that there will be obstacles to overcome, and the car is going to gain some weight. Not denying it, and not making excuses. He knows that he may actually have to spend MORE initially, and has accepted it. Very reasonable.

He ISN'T trying to convince everyone that it will be lighter, cheaper, or easier... which is the concern I have with the folks making those (false) claims.

Brad

 

You didn't SAY that the V8 is sans manifolds... but that is the weight you listed. You didn't SAY that the 13B was "all up." But again, the weight you listed IS the all-up weight.

Research it and get back to me if you have any doubt that my statement is correct. A "bare" 13B is under 300lbs... you quoted considerably more. But the figures you gave for the V8 coincide with "bare" weights that are commonly published. Apples to oranges. That's not flaming, that's stating the facts.

Brad

 

Ok RICERACING, you know better than this... warning #1. I see a whole STRING of posts here with similar content, and it WILL stop.

Brad

 

Good point about the TII transmission... it does weigh a BIT more than the NA one, I know that from personal experience. Total difference between the NA transmission and differential and the TII parts is about 75 lbs. This is PARTLY why a TII weighs more than an NA. Beefier springs, bigger brakes, usually power EVERYTHING, and the weight of the turbo and intercooler system make up the rest.

Brad

p.s. We don't call Mustangs "Rustangs" either... that's against forum rules.

OK, my turn to rant for a sec...

This thread is WAY out of hand, but there is also some good information changing hands on BOTH sides, so I will leave it for now... but EVERYONE needs to tone it down. Most of you guys (Rice, Chris, etc.) are long-time members, or frankly I'd be a lot more inclined to ban folks. This issue always gets out of hand, which is why I hate these discussions... because I'm the one that has to babysit all this crap. If I have to lock this thread due to continued flames, you can rest assured that won't be the ONLY action taken.

 

First of all, it's BRAD, not BRIAN. Second, no, I'm not gonna ban you for this... I don't see this as a flame... but you know as well as I do that you've had multiple warnings, and you ARE pushing your luck. Let's tone it down a bit, shall we?

Brad

 

If I were building a drag only car, I'd have a GN 3.8/200R4 combo.

But for just general driving, I like the rotary, beacuse to me its fun to drive. I live the way it revs, and sounds, etc. But there is no denying the power potential of V8s and turbo V6's. I saw Duttweiler's 2000 HP GN in person when I was younger. I just don't care for the GM G-Body platform. So no GN for me.

I have a lot more fun driving my 13B RX-7 down a curvy road than any piston engine car.

 

really?

Ok I'm going to buy another N/A tranny for my Turbo GXL
which I broke cause I'm making over 225
with 3" exhaust and a Mild Ported engine and that is ALL the
mods I got.

I'm going to envite forum member BogusFile who has a 350 in his
2nd gen with a 2 speed power glyde that is making over 250HP
to the track(we're both from central florida)
and we shall see what my tiny little 1.3 liter car can do against his
Ok after that I'll make you eat my time slip

 

Well, I guess the storm has passed... So I guess its safe to add my $0.02. I can understand both arguments. And it really is just a matter of what you want. Personally, I dont like turbos, fuel tuning, or anything overly complex and expensive. This is mainly because I cant afford the supporting systems of a turbo motor, much less a good turbo and a ported motor to begin with. I'm also partial to N/A power because its 100% consistant. You get this much power at this RPM (not counting changing atmospheric conditions) EVERY time. No vacume leaks, boost spikes, turbo lag, or worries of running lean because my 90psi fuel pump hiccupped when feeding my 1200cc injectors.... I'm also a fan of torque. Its fun.. Plain and simple.. Its also nice to be able to pull in any gear without having to downshift to get into a narrow powerband. On the other hand, there's nothing like the feeling of boost. Feeling in the seat of your pants as it builds up to its peak. Or the sound of a tuned motor revving it up high. My favorite sound in the world is the Williams BMW FW23's 3.0 liter V10 going through the motions. And as far as the balance issue. I seriously dont think a V8 would throw off the balance all THAT much. And besides, with a V8, you could afford to ADD weight to balance it out. More weight makes it handle worse? Get wider, stickier tires... Anyway... All of this has been covered quite extensivly already. As I said earlier, its all a matter of what you want. If you enjoy tuning an engine thats trying it hardest to explode into little peices, low displacment turbo motors are for you. If you want simple, consistant power with a wide powerband go with a nice V8. And just for the record, I've chased a V8 firebird down a twisty country road. And not only did he leave me in his dust after going sideways through 2nd, he also out handled the **** outta me through the turns... He also had some fat *** tires I could only dream to afford for my car So anyway... I love my car. I love the simplicity of the N/A rotory engine. What I DONT love is the fact that my car is slow as hell. V8's are a cheap, effective means to an end. For me, thats to have a car that'd take any respectable supercar on the strip, at the track, and on the street. And to do it without a turbo... Jimlab, your my hero..

 

All I can say is that if it wasn't for rotary purists like rx7_ragtop to challenge newage way of doing things, then sure enough the rotary would die out. Mazda made the rotary with the intention of selling it (which explains why the rx series has them) to the consumer. Also it's great that entrepeneurs like ChrisV have the guts and obviously the know-hwo to be able to challenge a motor that has had a foothold in mazda tradition for decades.

This goes for anything that is technolically related. It's all about trying new things. I honestly wish that everybody would just act more open minded and not try to be personally insulted when somebody doesn't want to treat a car the way you want to treat it (kind of a spinoff ofthe Golden Rule). With that in mind, I hope that we can all get along better, and I hope to read more of these great debates. Now a couple questions:

rx7_ragtop: I plan to prolly get a 3rd gen and was wondering if you think that a 20B motor would be worth putting in? I heard that they get 50% more power output from them, but are they worth the extra money? As a matter of fact, how much do they cost? Any other info on them would be greatly appreciated to ragtop. Thanks bud.

ChrisV: If I ever did decide to do the V8 or V6 (+ any other motors that you might recommend) conversion, I was wondering on what you think would be a better bet in a 3rd gen. Because I know it seems most guys who do this conversion use 1st or 2nd gens based on reasons that have already been stated (like insurance). I'm trying to think how to word this correctly, but I can prolly be pretty sure of myself when I say that the V6 Turbo will cost more in the long run on a completely stock FD since other miscellaneous parts would need to be bought by me (boost gauge among other things). Are the FC and the FD that much different so that in your explanations, I couldn't directly think of the FD in my my mind instead? Hope I didn't maek that sound too complicated and if I did, you can count on me responding to either yours or rx7_ragtop's posts .

To be quite honest, I like the rotary, but then again my words can be deceiving. I like it, but I don't love it, as for in the words of a true rotary enthusiast (as far as one can be for just liking the rotary), "It doesn't matter how much I love the rotary engine for it can only love me back so much back" . I hope that this brings about more lively debates later on.

P.S. I wish I hung around these forums as much as I do Supraforums.com. If I knew that the discussions were this good, I woulda come here years ago. I'm glad to say that you have nwo another somewhat-newbie member that you can officially add to a list of people that will have over 1000 posts here. Well on my way...

Aslo sorry for the spelling errors, I entirely blame myself and my crappy typing ....o what the heck! It was the infrared keyboard .

 

Engine swaps in the FD are a whole different ballgame.

 

What a surprise...

 

What do you mean?

 

Thats 225 hp to the Flywheel right?
I sure hope you have modified your fuel system or you will end up running a 0.00 at 0mph. Are you sure that is all you have? And I am certainly not making 250hp. I may have intake exhaust and a nice carb and all, but it is not matched up. My motor makes 170hp
in a stock 79 camaro Z28. With my mods Id say Im at 210hp. Why only 210? Well for one because the cam is stock, and that effects the motor more than any mod, secondly the carb is much to big for the cam resulting in an extremely rich condition at low RPM which causes bogging off the line and so on. My stock cam is good for about 5k RPM, and with my gearing it won't allow good MPH at that RPM range. Hence the 13.9 at 92 mph. The cam I am getting will accomodate my carb, and allow the motor to rev out to 6500rpm, with the help of some roller rockers and stiffened valve springs. Then I will have an extra 50-60+hp and an extra 1500RPM worth of MPH. Should run low 12's all day long.
If you really want to see how your car holds up against a V8 FC race me when my car is running right. Then we will see who is eating Time slips.

 

lol ok then

I'll upgrade my turbo and add bigger injectors
and we shall see eh...hehe

naw, right now I'm planning on painting my car
so performance stuff is going to have wait

ask Little Donny or triangleman
or andres all of which have seen my car
and can tell you all the mods I have are a 3" inch exhaust
and a mild ported engine boosting @10 PSI with no FCD or fuel mods
I did send my injectors to get cleaned at RC when I built the Motor
which helps in having crisp fuel delivery.

after The Paint will come some MAJOR Mods

 

Man your walking a thin line, you should at least rewire your fuel pump.
Especially this time of year, with the cold weather and all. I have seen TII's with stock fuel injection run 12.7's, but that is a very risky affare.
Plus the guy had a big *** NPR intercooler, and a motor built by Crispeed. Once you get a bigger turbo you are going to need to get some sort of engine management. But I bet you can get all of that stuff real cheap, knowing the Orlando crowed haha. Do you know jose with the white FD? Almost bought a TII off of him. Or have you heard of a guy running around with a sprinkler head for a blow off valve? That was me, and it worked great haha. Well if you are going to upgrade your turbo, I may have to get some .202 heads, and forged high compression pistons, which would put me into the low 11's. And they can both be bought for around 600 clams.
Well regardless I would like to race a modded TII. I still love the rotary, and I have a **** load of respect for them. I love the old starlets and R100's out at bithlo. They are my favorite cars out there. I just cant afford to do it the way I want to. But I'll never regret driving a V8 FC.

 

I assure you that I will be at the track alot though. So I am sure that some time in the future we can race. It should be awesome... and I wont consider it a grudge match or anything. I just want some good competition. Nobody will race me!

 

yea I don't see nothing wrong with a V8 FC
it's a fun project I would assume.

actually I have not driven the car in 2 months
But I know if I was to drive here in this cold weather
I could hit 15 PSI, which is a no no.

I got several back up motors just In case

 

I got to see if I can find a N/A tranny tommarow
if I find one and install it sunday
I'll be at the track this coming friday

 

Well hopefully my freind will buy my TII from me. He is planning on swapping a V8 in it. He will have a TII tranny and motor for sale if you or anyone you know needs it. It has 150k miles on it, but it runs good, and doesnt burn excessive oil. Bought 1 quart per 500-1000 miles. The turbo is good too.
Let me know

 

BTW I think the track is closed? I may be wrong, but they usually close it for like 2 months during the winter to resurface it.

 

I have a 87 TII
I bought a month or so ago
with a blown motor.
I was planning on putting my good motor on it
but I want to pull the blown motor
and custom paint the entire car
before doing so.

my engine builder has a TII complete
running that he put a mech lien on
the owner disappered (a car dealer) been a year

That I could buy for 1k
but I dont have room for more cars

 

I HOPE so they have been saying for several years they was going to re pave the strip.

and speedworlds track is uneven especially after the lights
there is a drop

 

I'll address just the part above, and let others handle the V8 questions.

PERSONALLY, I don't think a 20B is a good choice for any but the most hard-core hot-rodders. It has exactly the same issues as a V8: It isn't just a "bolt in" fit, it is heavier, (about the same as a Ford small-block) and longer (slightly longer than a domestic small-block V8) and a lot of fabrication is required. Read that as "a lot of $$ required" unless you do it all yourself. I don't just mean motor mounts either. I personally don't think it is worth it IN MOST CASES. (Exactly the same reasons as the V8 swap.) However... in stock trim, with just intake, exhaust, and raising the boost slightly, it's good for an easy 500+ hp... a lot more "bang for the buck" than an NA V8 built up to that hp level, and a lot more streetable- it will drive like the stock engine that it is, and be reliable like the stock engine that it is.

Now, that being said... you can make 400+ streetable RWHP with a properly modified 13BT or 13BREW, for a LOT less money invested. I personally know several people who have done so, and 1 who drives his 400+ hp car EVERY SINGLE DAY to work.

Am I a rotary purist? No, not really. I own a big-block 69 Cougar convertible as well, unfortunately, it's in pretty bad shape. I'm not even totally against V8 engines in RX-7s. What I AM against is unreasonable or misleading information. (Like saying a V8 is as light as a 13B!)

 

Id say that the small block is still a better choice than even a 3 rotor. My dream car is a 750hp 3 rotor FD, but my reality car would more than likely be a 600hp LT1 FD similar to Jims car. My main concern is reliability and cost. The 3 rotor would be fairly reliable, but if and when it does go, the cost to rebuild it would be astronomical, unless you do it yourself, and even if you do it would likely be 2k dollars+. Its just a scary swap man. Plus the mazda tranny would be at its whits end with all that 3 rotor torque.

 

Brad (sorry about the name thing... don't know what happened...), Sorry about going off earlier. it's guys like this rice_racing fellow that I've had to deal with for the past few years. Only can take people like that for so long before blowing up. Won't happen again. Ok?

Secondly, I NEVER said the V8 was lighter or as light as the rotary. Never. I did, however, try to show it wasn't THAT much heavier (I've always stated, depending on whether you start with an N/A or TII, that the weight will be 50-150 lbs more with the V8). When I gave weights, it was of the engines I personally weighed. With stiffer springs, relocated battery, etc, the difference (because of how far back the engines sit) will be minimal as far as handling is concerned. In some cases, like my car, the balance was changed enough to make the car more neutral. But I've also always shown that I had Tokiko race springs, Tokiko HP struts, 1 1/8" front bar, and Yokohama A008RSII tires. My car was an autocross champion before the conversion, and remained so after. It felt better on the track, to me, and I've been doing this (autocrossing) for a couple decades in hundreds of different cars. I'm just trying to say that with my experience (and I'm not a redneck bubba who simply stuffs V8s in everything) the conversion works, and works well.





The front of the valve covers are at the center of the struts.. That means it's still front-mid engine. And look how small that V8 is in there. In my case, only 150 lbs was added to the car, and only 50 of that ended up on the front. I gave all the paperwork on the conversion (scale weights, alignment specs, etc.) to the new owner back in '98, so I can't scan it in and prove any of this, which pisses me off. And as I said in teh other thread, if I could transfer Hi-8 to .mpg, I have video of the car autocrossing...

Oh, and about the design of the car: Everything about the Ford V8 conversion was as though the factory had designed it this way. All fuel lines, vacuum lines, etc lined up. The Ford sump fit around the Mazda crossmember like it was designed to be there. The steering gear went far enough over to the side to allow huge amounts of room. The exhaust snaked down next to the frame rails like it was custom built for the car, yet it was off-the-shelf MAC bits for a Mustang. the Ford trans mount was in almost exactly the same spot as teh Mazda one, and the Ford driveshaft was the same diameter as the Mazda shaft, so it was a simple chore to install the Ford yoke at the front of the Mazda shaft. Heck, even the wheels use the standard Ford 5 lug bolt pattern...