Ahem, A 225 horse 302 would beat a 225 13B in the same car any day of the week, month/year.

 

This is warning number 2. Flames are NOT permitted.

Brad

 

The point is, "headers" (a tubular manifold) is available for the 13BT... saving weight. If you are gonna count the stock manifold weight for the 13BT, then you need to count the stock manifold weight for the V8. Apples to apples.

 

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Originally posted by rx7_ragtop


No... but I think it COULD be done for well under $5k... and do YOU honestly think you could go out, THIS WEEK, and duplicate it? I don't think so either. I bet YOU would have to spend over $5k to do it as well... in fact, I bet the engine alone would cost you that much to duplicate. You're comparing a "once in a lifetime" deal on used parts to a newly-built rotary, and using it to "preach" the cost-effectiveness of a V8 swap with numbers that we both know are not realistic. If you want to compare used costs, fine... compare average used cost to average used cost... if you want to compare new, that's ok too. Just don't try to compare a "deal" on a used V8 to an average or even slightly high new cost on a rebuilt rotary... it's misleading, and makes you look dishonest.
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Quote:

No, I'm telling you what it friggin' COST me to build. I HAD X number of dollars to spend. You want to spend my money for me, you come over here and EARN it. I could not build a new or used rotary with anywhere near that power output with the money I had at the time. PERIOD. Yet high power used V8s in that price range were and ARE all over. SBC have been in production since '55 and SBFs since '61. It's cheap and easy to get them. Just because you won't believe that doesn't make it untrue. If you want, a $1200 rebuilt, 300hp warrantied SBC is a phone call away at ANY major city, and most minor ones. One time deal? Not hardly.

There's a difference between a "bare" $1200 SBC and a "ready to run" 400 hp SBF with tranny for $1000. A BIG difference. 100hp difference, not to mention having to buy the tranny, ($200+??) the manifold, (A couple hunderd) water pump,(~$50) carb,(~$300) headers, (~$200)

That's about $2150 + all the other stuff you mentioned before, for a 300HP car.

How do you get 300HP out of a TII? Simple: Rebuilt motor, ported ($600-$800 IF you do it yourself) Bigger turbo (hybrid, about $750 or so) Exhaust (cheaper than the dual for the V8, so let's forget it) Cone intake ($35) TID ($20 of Home Depot parts) bigger injectors (about $300 new for a pair) bigger fuel pump ($125) That's $2030, for about 300 RWHP. That's $125 less, for more power, and doesn't consider "incedental" costs like having a driveshaft custom made, or motor mounts, etc. for the V8 swap.

Want more power? It costs more... but it can be done reasonably.

Quote:

You or I could go out right now, grab an Autotrader or "Buy& Sell" (which is the want ad version) and find a built up domestic engine for the same cost. People do it all the time. Unlike used rotaries, they are CONSIDERABLY more reliable, or at least the chances of getting a reliable one are MUCH better. I've DONE the "used rotary" route before. But the days of the $300 12A rebuild are long gone. It's called supply and demand. Supply is way down and demand is way up for the rotary. And used ones are simply not a good bargain. Hell, that was my FIRST choice.

Once again, you are comparing new to used of unknown condition. Do you not understand the concept of comparing "apples to apples?"

I haven't yet backpedaled... but you have tapdanced all around several issues... namely comparing new cost to used cost, stock weight to modified weight, and stock power to modified power. You also have said that I cannot reduce the weight of the 13BT, which is incorrect. There are a number of things that can be done. Removing the sub-zero assist, removing various emissions-related devices (yeah, you have ALL of those on the V8, right?) removing the airpump, getting a tubular manifold to replace the cast-iron one, etc. Also you can add anything removed or relocated on the V8 swap to the list of things that can be removed on the TII.

Quote:

Now, I never compared the 13B with ALL accessories, merely the bits necessary for X power output.

WRONG. The number you gave for the 13B is "all up" instead of bare like the V8 figure. Tell you what... I'll be doing a TII transplant in the next 6 months or so... I'll weigh the damned thing with and without accessories so you can see.

Quote:

Anyone who does the conversions doesn't change the weight of A/C or alternator so that would be a wash (although, if they removed the A/C, then as far as the CAR is concerned, the weight drops). I also never mentioned exhaust manifolds on either engine. YOU are the only one to do that.

You're right, I mentioned them... because a TII with the turbo INCLUDES the manifold- that's what the turbo MOUNTS on. You were quoting a bare-bones V8 without that sort of thing... but they have to be there for the car to be driveable on the street. (or even for long in any circumstance, to prevent warping the valves.) More of your apples-to-oranges trickery.

Quote:

In my car's case, it didn't have A/C or power steering, so I CAN compare what it's chassis has to deal with to a chassis that still has to deal with the weight of A/C and power steering pump. And with one that still has it's batttery in front. Your assumption is that after the conversion the car HAS to weigh more in the nose than stock. And that assumption is wrong. it MIGHT weigh more, but it MIGHT (and in my case, did) weigh less than it did stock. And that's the bottom line.

No, you can compare it to a TII that has those items removed. Apples to apples, no more tricks.

Quote:

I'm not misleading anyone. This is what it cost, and how it ended up. PERIOD.

Not misleading? Comparing weight of a "stripped" model car to a loaded one? yeah, whatever. More deception, and you just admitted it.

Quote:

You have NO issues with a stock TII, right? You'd NEVER accuse one of
being a nose heavy pig, right? Yet you assume that a V8 conversion wil AUTOMATICALLY become a nose heavy pig, and that is demonstrably untrue. Becasue even IF a V8 engine weighs a bit more than a bare non-turbo rotary,

Finally! You actually admitted that the A/C isn't an integral part of the rotary, and that, like on the V8 swap car, it CAN be removed... now if I could just get you to admit that you can remove the P/S also, JUST LIKE THE V8 SWAP without P/S, we will be making progress.

Quote:

No, again, it's YOU that knows little. My car got set up on the corner weight scales at Fordahl Motorsports. My friend Greg and I have been setting up road race and autocross cars for decades. What have YOU been doing with your time? The weight distribution went from 51/49 f/r to 49/51 f/r. Measured. No matter what you want to argue, that was the numbers. (To be honest, I was surprised, too). Total weight, 2720 lbs. You have assumption and a bit of book learnin'. I have practical experience over decades AND a bunch of book learnin', too: Engineer to Win, Tune to Win, Prepare to Win, Race Car Aerodynamics, Chassis Engineering/Chassis Design, Building & Tuning for High Performance Handling, How to Make Your Car Handle. I've built SCCA national champions. You? My car was considerably more balanced and much faster on the autocross course than before the conversion. And other than the front swaybar, I didn't change anything in the suspension during the conversion from what the race setup had been before the rotary died.

Apples to apples. No A/C, P/S, moved battery vs. stock. Once again, MISLEADING!

Quote:

Do you know what weight transfer is, and weight jacking using spring rates and alignment? Probably not.

Yes... and they STILL don't offset differences in balance, at least not 100%.

[quote]
40% of the rotary weight is below the eccentric shaft, but the eccentic shaft is in the middle, not the bottom. meaning the weight in the chassis is STILL carried starting at a point just above the crossmember. The engine doesn't sit lower in the chassis than the V8. And where do the turbo and intercooler sit? Up top? Right. Where does the battery sit? Forward and up high. Now what happens when it's moved to the well behind the passenger seat?[quote]

The centerline of the eccentric shaft is lined up with the centerline of the transmission input shaft, just like the crankshaft on the V8. The weight of the V8 is carried MUCH higher in the chassis. As for the turbo, it sits LOW, on the RIGHT side of the motor, NOT up top. The intercooler is a lightweight aluminum structure, about like the air cleaner on a stock V8 in weight, perhaps a bit lighter than that. And the battery can ALSO be moved on a rotary car... or is that only possible on a V8 vehicle?

Quote:

The rotary sits farther forward than the V8 does: the bellhousing of the trans is farther back than the rotarys. the rotary uses a LARGE front oil cooler, which the V8 didn't. That removed forward weight, too. Weight previously carried ahead of the axle. You obviously don't know how the weight is carried in your own car...

The bellhousing on the V8's tranny can't sit MUCH further back, without severerly modifying the firewall to clear the heads. And the V8 is still longer. BTW I am pretty sure I know where the oil cooler and other components are located.

quote:
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Originally posted by rx7_ragtop
IF you want to compare to "built" V8 motors, then it's only fair to use a modded 13B. About 2 grand for a street port, $1200 for a Haltech, and $1000 for a big turbo. This is very close to BDC's setup, and he puts 425hp to the wheels with a few additional VERY LOW COST tricks. (like homemade air-to-water intercooler using the stock core...) You could duplicate his setup for $5000 EASILY if you did the work yourself, as you are evidently willing to do.
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Quote:

I DID want to build one up. But look at your figure. $5k is WAAAAY out of my budget at the time. As I've said before, you want me to spend more than I did, you come and earn the money for me, too.

Did I tell you to do it different? NO. What I did was correct some misleading information FOR OTHER USERS INFORMATION. I personally don't care what you do... just don't try to push it on me, and don't try to "sell" the concept on here with misleading information.

Quote:

If I were to build another RX7, it WOULD be a TII (Although a turbo RX3 would be my first choice, as I still have a soft spot for my old RX3s...). But I can afford that kind of thing these days. Hell, the reason I was playing with RX2s and RX3s back in the day was precisely because they were cheap to build. $1200 was a whole car WITH a heavily ported 12A and Racing Beat intake and exhaust. Good for high 13s back in the early '80s, which was insane fast then. By '93, however, a 6 port 13B Turbo was an insanely expensive engine to build up.

6 port 13B Turbo? . Aren't you the guy just bragging to us how much you know about cars? There are NO 6-port turbo motors from the factory. NONE. (well, unless you count the 20B...)

Quote:

Add to that the FACT that in '93, there was no such thing as Apex seals that would last at 400hp on the street. In '93, Mazda itself was having a hard time keeping 250hp cars together.

Another series of your misleading "wish it was a fact" type statements. Stock apex seals from a stock TII motor can handle well over 400HP, IF tuned properly. Mazda was NOT having trouble keeping 250hp cars together, and basically the same car with a few "tweaks" is still being sold in Japan and some other countries... just NOT in the US. Mazda WON LEMANS OUTRIGHT in 1991, with a 900 hp 4-rotor... that would be 450HP per 2 rotors, and the apex seals were good enough for 24 hours of serious abuse. Perhaps you should research your "facts" more carefully.

Quote:

Lastly, these aren't 1 of 36 original Ferrari 250 GT0s. These are dime a dozen secretarymobile 2nd gen RX7s. I don't see you going around spending your money saving every dead one around, or stopping them from going to the crusher. The cars simply aren't worth doing that for (rest assured, if a real 250 GTO was headed for the crusher, people would step up!). If I have one and my engine dies, I don't see you stepping up to hand me the money to fix it to YOUR standards. The cars aren't worth that to the automotive community at large OR even to the RX7 community. If you're not paying me to rebuild it, you abrogate all right to complain about how it gets rebuilt

This is actually the first sensible thing you have said. This is, however, and RX-7 ENTHUSIAST forum... and "hacking up" and RX-7 is offensive to many.

Additionally, I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just telling you to be HONEST about weights, costs, and other relevent factors, something you seem to have a hard time doing.

Brad

 

I do not know what you have been doing for 30 years?

I have a 500BHP 13B Turbo engine in my first gen that is daily driven, it goes 100000km or 60000miles between rebuilds when driven on the street, with 10% race use.

In race trim 100% racing it has done over 7500km (pure circuit racing) at 530BHP power level, If you know anything about N/A V8's they cannot do any more than 3000km without needing to change valve springs when run at the same power level from a capacity of 350cu.....
Oh yeah, average freshen up for my rotary costs me $300US in parts!
A set of valve springs for a 550BHP Chev or Ford 350cu running the same power level costs over $2000

My car is faster than a Ferrari F40 in accel and top speed + reliable...all on pump gas, oh and with over 29MPG in open road travelling.

LIKE TO SEE YOUR V8 DO THAT!

Get real and stop talking ****! V8 N/A motors are alot more expensive, not as reliable, are heavier, use more fuel, and are a joke compared to a late gen 13B rotary.

Grannys, LOL what a perfect name ! seeya Grand ma...have fun towing your boat !

 

i don't see anyone topping that

 

 

I know alot of people here will probably hate me for this, but oh well, here goes.

I currently own 2 RX-7's.

88 SE
87 Base

I have a 1995 Nissan truck that i drive everyday, so I really dont need either of the RX-7's. The 88 SE I bought for $500 running. It's undergoing a rebuild. What is going in it? Well, in that car, its going to be the same stock 13B. My girlfriend (of many years, she's been go to me) is paying for the parts for me to rebuild that engine.

Why rebuild the 13b you ask? She is crazy about RX-7's , the way they look, the way they feel, and she really loves the sunroof. But does she really care how fast it is going to go? NO. As long as she can smack around some honda's, she will be happy with the car. As for price?

Rebuild kit: $600
Injector Cleaning: $100
New Vacuum hoses: $20
Pulsation Dampner: $130
New fuel hoses: $30
New Intake Gaskets: $40

So for her, this will be a car that will run like it did off the showroom floor for a very reasonable $1000 or so. Is that good? YES. That is a very very reasonable price for a car that is going to drive like its new again and wont break on her for a good long while and wont catch on fire

So you might ask, what's the point of this story?

If you do it yourself, you can get these cars running like they are supposed to. And for people like my girlfriend, who love the car as it is, it is a very good price to pay for such a wonderful car.


Now on to the 87:

This is going to be my baby. It started out as a junker that I got for $200. The car was mostly complete although it had pretty much no interior in it, but the seller included a nearly complete interior with the car. The car only has 88k miles on it, so as you can imagine, the body is in wonderful condition, no dents whatsoever. The car did, however, sit outside for 3 years so the paint is pretty much dead.

I origonally bought the car to use as a parts donor for the 88, however, something strange happend. This car seemed to call to me. I dont expect any of you to understand, all I know is I do. Any time I would take something off the engine, I would be overcome with guilt, as if the car was telling me to stop. After a few tries at this and a few days of just sitting and looking at the car, it hit me.

This was my car-soulmate, the car which I was destined to keep for life.

It all made sense now. I began the slow process of putting the completley gutted interior back together. The interior is now oh, 80% complete and well on its way. NOW comes the hard part.

ENGINES. choices choices.

As I said, the stock engine has 89k miles on it. It does however have a very heavy oil leak and as i said has been sitting for a number of years. I guess what I do depends on how good the compression results come out. If the engine comes out good, then I'll use that engine for now. If it comes out bad, or even if it doesnt, down the road I will probably do the unthinkable. a FORD v8.

Why oh why you ask? Because I dont care what Mazda had in mind for this car. Because I dont care what any of you have in mind for this car. This is MY car, and I'm going to make it into what I want it to be. I happen to choose the Ford 302 because after all is said and done, not very much weight will be added. Adding to this, parts availability to the Ford 302 is phenominal. My choice will most likely be a late 80's 5.0 Mustang engine because I will also have to use all the emissions equipment to pass emissions here in AZ (bah). I know it will require a bit of money and rewiring, but it will be worth it for me.

Why not a rotary? simple. This is a car im going to have around for a long time after I put this much work in it. And as much as I hate to admit it, 13B parts are getting more expensive as the years go by. Its a simple fact that because there are so many Mustangs in existance, there will be parts availability for the 5.0 V8 for a good, long time. 5.0 V8's also enjoy quite a large aftermarket, very much larger than that of the 13B. And last bot not least, the numbers of V8's around make parts for the engine just so much cheaper than that of a 13B. Reman starters can be had for $23. You cant get that for an RX-7 that cheap, and you never will.

So basically, I think for a long term investment in a car you will keep, a more common engine will be a better choice, no matter how you look at it.


So again, what the point of all this?

You have to ask yourself, What do I want out of my RX-7?

If you want an RX-7 as it is. Thats great, I love them as they are too. The 13b is a very unique engine that makes for alot of fun. It is also relativly cheap to rebuild and bring back to factory spec to make a very well running car again.

If you want sheer speed that you can actually afford, thats great too. But to get to this route, the best choice is simply a V8. The cheap price of parts, the guarunteed availability of parts, and the large aftermarket available to these engines makes them an extraordinary value.

So what you do just depends on what you want. I have 2 cars that are gonna go 2 completley different directions because we want 2 completley different things for them.

If you love the 13b, good! I love this engine as much as anyone here.

If you love V8's, also good! For my application, speed with long term availability of parts, this would seem the logical choice.

Take your pick

Chris

 

True mate, as I stand here...

In Aus we race these cars in V8 supercar class and this is what comp valve springs cost, you need em so you can run a comp cam with very agressive lobes to get the valve openings you need to make that power, it is not made up, it is a fact.

I do get 29MPG in high way mode, covered by a magazine as well if you do not believe me

It's called Autronic engine managment and a 100% engine MAP.

No V8 will do that, it may match the power, but will not be as reliable in N/A form and it sure as hell will not beat my economy and it sure as hell will not be as drivable....

HARD TO BELIEVE people still argue this point

 

In std form a V8 is cheap, in modified form especially N/A when looking at 350 cubes and under to make 500+ bhp they are VERY expensive.

A 13B turbo to make the same power is VERY cheap, not only to build but also to rebuild and maintain.

If you are talking about drivability of a n/a V8 and a turbo rotary then there is no comparison, the rotary of 500bhp will be as tame as a cat and use alot less fuel than a lumpy unsophisticated n/a boat anchor !

 

No, they did not make a 92 7, they just sold the left over 91's in 92. And I was thinkin about doin the SBC to my ride when my motor fries, because my dad has a blown 327 from a 67 vette in the garage that he said if I rebuild he be happy to see it running again, even in a jap car. Buuuuuuuuuut, my N/A rotary is a fresh rebuild and you know what they say-NO ROTOR, NO MOTOR

 

Not sure what they're using that costs $2,000, but the Comp Cams Pacaloy springs on my 650 horsepower NA 396 LT1 with a fairly radical solid roller cam with almost 0.700" of lift are only $300 a set. The same springs would have sufficed if I'd gone with even higher compression for more horsepower. I could have easily pulled 800+ horsepower NA out of the same engine with a few changes if I'd been willing to forego the ability to use pump gas.

I find that difficult to believe. In the United States, the average I've heard from most 3rd gen. owners with even less horsepower is 13-17 on the street and 19-21 on the highway, if that. What's your secret?

Also, magazines print pretty much whatever you tell them. I'm not saying you're lying, I'm just saying that reading something in a magazine doesn't necessarily make it true.

That's completely false.

I have exceeded your power by a considerable margin with my 396, with better reliability, and I can still get 17-19 in town and 26+ on the highway because of my 0.50:1 6th gear. Drivable depends on what your personal definition of drivability is, of course. The car will be plenty streetable, but it was never meant to be a grocery getter.

However, you could do the same with an LS6 crate motor, a cam and heads. My 405+ horsepower Z06 averaged 26.7 mpg for 3,200 miles and it'll easily run 100k+ miles with very little maintenance. Cruising in 6th gear, instant gas mileage hovers around 34-38 mpg. I could easily match your horsepower with another $1,500 or so invested, and still have factory-like reliabilty, great gas mileage, and no $2,000 valve springs.

I think you should do some more research before making broad generalizations about V8 motors where reliability and gas mileage are concerned. Not everyone has a big 4 bbl. carb sitting on top of their V8...

 

Not living in Australia. But I HAVE been building race cars from most major brands around the world.

How nice for you. Know how many daily driver 500 hp rotaries are in the US? I can count them on my hand. Know how many people here have a hard time keeping even a 300 hp rotary together? Most on this board. WHen did you build this engine, and where do you drive it to KNOW you get 60k miles from each rebuild? Are you telling me that you have drivine it, in it's present form, for hunderds of thousands of miles? over the last how many years? You know how long it takes to put that kind of mileage on an engine? I think you are exxagerating a bit.

As was said, you need to do some research. Look at Summit Racing. http://store.summitracing.com/section.asp?d=3&s=275 Racing valve springs are under $300 a set. The Crane ones on my engine cost $150. Far cry from the $2000 YOU quote. Are they made of unobtanium? Hell, even the STOCK ones on the '68-69 DZ302 Chevy are good for 8000 rpm. Doublesprings for that engine (SBC) that allow 9000+rpm are only $200 a set. The HP output doesn't matter to springs. You'd know that if you knew how to build engines.

I'd like to see ANY RX7 street car do that. My STOCK RX7 didn't get 29mpg. I doubt going from 145 hp to 500 hp wouldIMPROVE the mileage. I do know my mildly modded RX3 got 14mpg. You have that magic Fish carburator detup or something?

You're the one who needs to stop talking ****. I'm not in Australia. Here, V8 engines are extremely inexpensive to work on. Weight is a known factor, with scale weights available all over. all you have to do is weigh them, instead of pulling numbers out your ***. And the fuel mileage quotes you have are a joke to ANYONE who has driven modded rotaries.

Oh, and the Granny's thing. That's a company run by a guy by the name of Grant. I'm assuming he got the nickname many years ago. I had nothing to do with it, him, or his company, and he has nothing to do with me. Calling me names based on that name shows you to be extremely small minded. I'm sure Brian will ban me over this, as it's his firm belief that you can call me all the names you want, and that's merely disagreeing. but if I defend myself in a like manner, *I'm* flaming you.

So be it.

 

I'm only going to go over this one point, as it illustrates teh hard time I'm having with your whaole set of assumptions.

Show me where I EVER said the weight of the V8 was sans manifolds. Show me where I EVER said the weight of the 13b was "all up."

You are making assumptions about what I said, and flaming ME based on YOU putting words in MY mouth.

 

Edited...

WAN'T ONE DO IT TO ANOTHER CAR, NOT A MAZDA ROTARY.

 

Edited since I can't post something worthwhile, only flames...

 

I am small minded towards idiots like you who come onto this forum and tell me that I am wrong, that rotaries are unreliable, that n/a v8's are cheaper and more reliable and more economical !

STOP living in a dream world !

If you want to look like a fucken tool, then you are doing a good job.

 

v8's have their place, in trucks, large cars and other vehicles that are designed for towing loads.

They are VERY much not suited for circuit racing and again in n/a form they are over 5 times more expensive compared to a turbo 13B rotary to achieve the same power and reliability.

Again here is the facts, I challenge you or ANYONE to prove me wrong !

n/a 350 chev 550bhp engine that will complete a 2000km (1200mile) endurance race cost $50000AUS

13B turbo 550bhp engine complete cost $8500AUS and will do over double this distance before needing to change valve springs like the v8 !

 

If you want to put one in a Mazda I am not going to stop you, but I sure as **** am going to stop you or any other **** who is trying to say total bullshit against the rotary engine, each to his own, just don't come into our backyard and pedal complete lies about how good your boat anchor is.

Unless you want to end up leaving carrying youre jaw home in youre hand.

 

You want another example ?

PRO STOCK cars only can do 10 runs or less before needing to change Valve springs, these engines cost over $60000AUS
for 850BHP

My 13B turbo PP has well over this power, revs higher, and has done over 1000km, with minimal wear....THAT IS 4km fro the PRO STOCK ENGINE v's 1000km for my $15000AUS peripheral port.

I know which one I would rather buy, run, rebuild.

 

And the economy will ALWAYS be better in a 2.616lt engine as apposed to one that is over double the displacement.

When modified correctly and tuned to perfection you can get real high power when needed and real high economy when needed !

THIS IS SOMETHING YOU CANNOT DO WITH A FIXED DISPLACEMENT V8 N/A ENGINE, WHEN TUNNED FOR THE SAME HP AS I HAVE !!!!!!!!!

You need to wake up to your self and get youre hand off youre ****, stop pulling youre self and realise that you are full of **** trying to compare a 500+bhp n/a v8 to a 500+bhp 13B turbo.

The rotary wins hands down in EVERY department from initial cost to drivability to reliability to weight & ECONOMY.

 

WOW! This has turned into an emotional topic. I'll start by picking on a few guru's in here.

RX_7Ragtop: Don't forget to add the additional weight of the T2 transmission which is easily over 100lbs I believe as I pulled one from a parts car and was impressed by its weight. Obviously removing a/c and heavy exhaust from the T2 or N/A 13B helps to reduce some weight as well.

RiceRacing: It is very nice that you have an aftermarket TEC-II or something similar that allows you to lean out the fuel delivery for sustained engine RPM on long cruises. Without this expensive aid ($1K-1,500) I'm sure it wouldn't be possible. Also you are EFI and ChrisV was total budget buildup and was carb'd.

$300 rebuild on your 13B....?!?! well assuming you are the one rebuilding it and if the housings aren't scored you can reuse them and do all the porting yourself. But if the housings are scored then I'm assuming your cost of replacing them is free as you probably have access to a pile of dead 13B's.

You can go to about any Kragen/Grand Auto and get a 350 rebuilt shortblock (block/pistons/rings/rods/crank) for $699 and slap on box stock Trick Flow Twisted Wedge aluminum heads $900 and swap the cam $119 to make around 400hp with upgraded intake $149 and reworked QuadraJet carb $100 with headers. Then the rest can be junkyard oil pan/distributor/timing cover etc. If you are more resourceful you can get a shortblock kit from PAW or Summit or Speed-o-Motive for about the same price and it will be a 383 but then you have to assemble it. This will push a 2nd gen car into the 11's easily and have over 400ft/lbs of tq. If you really want to save money you can run GM Vortec heads that are cast iron/fully assembled and new for $221 each and they flow enough to make nearly 400hp out of the box. The GM engineers finally designed a decent flowing budget head with nice combustion chamber and decent intake/exhaust ports.

RiceRacing: You may have 500hp but I doubt you have more than 400ft/lbs of tq. HP is relational to engine speed and TQ as you know. You have a pretty sweet setup I'm sure... and one of a handful like ChrisV mentioned who can keep a 13B with over 400hp running for more than 10,000 miles if that. In a featherweight 1st gen that car must fly.

Ford 302's weigh about 80-100lbs less than 350's! Mainly because their blocks are thinner castings and past 500hp are questionable. But 500hp in an RX-7 would blow about anyone's mind.

$2K valve springs.... ha ha ha. I run LT1 valvesprings in my Buick GN 3.8i turbo engine that cost $89. They are from the LT1 V8.

This debate can go on forever. Someone needs to finally complete an LS1 swap into either a 2nd gen or 3rd gen and your jaws will drop with the performance and reliability derived.

At least everyone here is in agreement that the RX-7 is a killer chassis that handles well, is light, aerodynamic, and is a great budget sports car that with some mods is an impressive little car.

I wish you guys would realize that when you can buy a 2nd gen with a blown engine for pennies on the dollar $200-500 for a car with near perfect body and nice interior... and then for about a total of $5K have a car that runs 12's or maybe even 11's, still handles better than most of the crap on the road and gets 20mpg+.... that is bliss.

I truly think I'll be doing engine swaps with 2nd gen RX-7's for a long time to come. Mainly because I will not pay the insurance a Z06/TTPorsche/TTSupra/TTRX-7 commands.... and I want to be different and really blow people's minds.

Happiness is blowing away a guy with a fully pumped RX-7/Camaro/Rustang/Vette/Supra/MuscleCar at the track and your car looks stock from the outside. Then drive by them in my car on the highway going home as they trailer their "racecar" that just got whooped at the track.

:p GNX7

 

That's called giving you the benefit of a doubt... or giving you a chance to prove it one way or another.

And if you thoiught I was kidding, you have now found out I wasn't. See you in a week, if you decide to behave then. Until then, you are banned.

 

RICE RACING, could you get any stupider? The guy specifically said, keep your damn flaming comments to yourself, run your car how you want, and let other people do what they want, and learn to read and apply.