gweedo

I have a s5 13b I have put a weber 48 dco on with a racing beat uim on. I have no air pump or any emissions stuff what I am trying to figure out is how do I make my auxiliary valves work with this setup?

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

dunno, it's never been done, you'll be a pioneer. hope you come up with something great!

DC5Daniel

iTrader: (10)

You're still new enough you could have posted this in the new member tech and not gotten smart *** answers like the one above. However, because you haven't searched for an answer that's been beaten to death over the last 30 years the cars have been on this earth, and you posted in the big boy tech section, you will get smart *** answers

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

shhhh he'll ketchup

gweedo

So much for using this forum for getting help why does it always seem like ppl. Are always out to make someone look stupid I have searched and not came up with the same type of setup I have so instead of bashing people. Post a link or at least point them in the right direction. I mean no disrespect to anyone it's just frustrating.I'll keep searching and hopefully figure this out.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

I've been pondering- with less need or urgency than you- the very same problem.
How familiar with the stock system are you?

DC5Daniel

iTrader: (10)

Gweedo, please take a step back and realize that we are in fact here to help, but a lack of effort (or failure to prove you've already made an attempt) is a problem on the forum, and that's why this is covered in all the new member stickies. No one means you any disrespect, so you can relax, you're amongst friends.

As the one with the problem, the burden is on you to link/inform us on what you've read so far and why any solutions provided in the past for aux port actuation will not work in your case. This gives us a reference point to know where we're at. Plus not everyone on the forum is an NA expert, the turbo flavor is most widely discussed/documented, so cut us some slack and inform us on the situation. Once that information is provided, we can pinpoint the issue and try to come up with a solution.

So again, what have you already read and why will past solutions not work for your setup?

gweedo

What I know about the port valves on an s5 is that they are activated by 1.5 to 2psi supplied from the air pump they are controlled by a solenoid valve and the exam was to send the command to open. My engine is all stock with a custom racing beat header with a racing beat upper intake with a 48dcoe most of the forums I've read ppl.are still using an air pump or they have an s4.which uses an exhaust tube. I don't know if I can plumb it like an s4 or if I'm better off tieing them open. This is in a vw Baja bug so I would like to keep as much low end torque I can. Sorry bout yesterday's rant I'd been messing with it for a while and was frustrated.

jjwalker

You can plumb it like an S4. Considering it sounds like you have a pretty good flowing exhaust, you could probably do away with an RPM switch and just use backpressure to open them up. THAT however will dependant on how much back pressure you actually build. You'll just have to test and see if it works. If that works then you are done.

gweedo

Ok I'll try that and see what happens thanks

Dak

I would just wire them open and shift higher. Say 4k or a touch above. As light as the bug is and with the way it's geared(depending on the year of your transaxle) I doubt you'll ever miss them. If it's one of the '72 or older boxes I'm pretty sure you'll be fine as they varied from a 4.125 final in'72 to some of the earlier years having 4.375 and even a 4.412 for some early years. If you find you're happy with that setup then pull the lim off the block and remove the sleeves and rods and get all that out of the intake path.

Here's where I got my info: Beetle gear ratios | TheGoldenBug.com

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Is it really that easy?
The S5 actuators push UP via positive air pressure from the pump and the S4 pulls DOWN, sucked by vacuum.

My understanding of the S5 system is thus, please correct me if wrong:

The air pump sends a constant supply of low pressure air to the 6-port solendoid, which, when untriggered, just dumps to atmosphere. The ECU decides to activate the ports, grounds the solenoid, which diverts air to the actuators and the valves are rotated open.

I wonder why all this monkey motion is necessary.
The ECU signal is binary- ON>OFF- so it would seem the valves are ultimately meant to be open or fully closed, there is no partial open or varying control system in place.
So...

Why can't the ECU ground signal run a little actuator directly on the valve control arm?
Something like a small door popper type thing? The required stroke is only about .75" and minimal force is required.
Or, instead of a linear motion which essentially duplicates the final stock linkage/motion, maybe a rotary actuator direct on the end of the rod.
How do fly-by-wire throttle bodies get moved?

I'm curious about this because some half assed goofing around on the intake I'm renovating showed that the stock actuators take their sweet time opening, although they close much faster. I'd like to see a more crisp and defined open>close cycle.

Presumably, a very similar arrangement would work on the VDI also.

Such a setup would maintain complete stock emission functionality while significantly cutting down on clutter...you'd lose two solenoids and all the associated air lines/hoses/electrical.

So, that's what I'm wondering about.

TonyD89

iTrader: (10)

They rotate opposite each other. How possible it is or not, a centric disc (or bar, lever, whatever) would produce opposite motion and use just one motor. Individual little motors or something is intriguing, but, use two. You could even use a solenoid parallel to the travel kinda like a crank arm.

jjwalker

You are incorrect. The S4 acuators activate by backpressure from the exhaust instead of solenoids and air pump like the S4. If he plumbs them to the manifold/header somehow, it will work just fine.

You do need enough back pressure for them to open so modifications to the exhaust can cause issues with this. The engine also has to be under load, so revving it in neutral isn't going to do anything, even on the S4 style setup unless the engine has load.

As far as fly by wire actuators, those are stepper motor. That makes the system even more complex than hoses and solenoid because now you need a micro controller to control the motor.

gweedo

Yes jjwalker my transaxle is a 4.31 gear and being a Baja it doesn't weigh over 1800lbs I was thinking the same I don't know that it would make a whole lotta difference.

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

hey should should have said it's a bug! you win!

the BEST thing to do, having done many versions...

you need a vacuum chamber something the size of your fist, old gmblazers have em.
you need a check valve
you need a lumbar support pump.(try a old caddy, or search for where others stole them from i can't remember)
the pump will put 5-7 psi in the vacuum/pressure chamber.. then use a solenoid to dump the 5-7psi of air on the valves and they open.
you can get 7-10 psi pressure switch and run the negitive leg thru the switch, the pump will turn off at 10 psi, and back on at below...



with just a pump the valve don't get enough VOLUME of 7psi air to open... thats why u need a pressure chamber. one for vacuum is good for small pressure.
my solenoids slam shut and open very fast. your bug will thank you.

THAT being said. you could get away with removing them. it's a light as **** bug anyways

TonyD89

iTrader: (10)

It would be nice to be done with just popping a solenoid and forget the other crap. Yes, fab skills and knowledge would be necessary.

It would be fast too. Clokkers desire.

lduley

iTrader: (1)

Nah, clokker will find a way to nit pick it, thats who he is

Even though everything mentioned above is junkyardable

I'll throw out there that 97-02(?) ford trucks use a vacuum resovouir also for their heater controls and 4WD actuator

jjwalker

Yup, those older ford trucks do!

clokker

iTrader: (2)

I approve of the junkyardability and will add that every German car has scifi round vacuum chambers also.
Now, on to the nitpicking...

My goal is to simplify the path from ECU to port valve while maintaining full stock performance. The proposed replacement seems like just another version of the Mazda design and isn't even simpler...basically, the same number of stages/components as where we're starting.
I want an electrical actuator to replace the air powered stocker and the requirements seem pretty simple to me.
If I knew where to look for such a creature.

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

i have only seen vacuum on off push-rod type solenoids. everything electrical that i can think of( rx8 APV) is not useable..and is varible. like the omp.

however i will say you could take a look at almost all open varible intake flappers( bmw nissan ford i have dealt with this week) all use a vacuum chamber pulled from the intake with a check valve and a solenoid controlled by the ecu, since you can't program the stock ecu for that, you have other options:
WOT switch to that it open any time you go WOT. you could adjust it to have 95 percent open but no 4/6 ports and then press the last little bit at 3500rpm...
or you could just but an rpm window switch from summit for about 45?
or wire up a push button "Turbo Mode" and mount in on the steeringwheel, that would be cool for kicks.

also the WHOLE purpose of this mod is because

A you want to remove the air pump form an S5 freeing up HP(?? right) but also making the engine look clearning and having more space for coolant to spray when your motor over heats before you put on two alternator belts to keep the water pump from slipping.
B you have an S4 with modded exhaust. who can blame you, there are power gains with a free flowing exhaust and...... if you had a p port you would have to have 0PSI back pressure, and you need a solution to run yo vaulvessss 'wink'

with the S5 you also have to run VDI so going my route just get one MORE solenoid. and one MORE rpm switch. (though i think it could be done with one dual window? ) you could dyno to find the best cross over points but 3500 and 6200 are good starters.

TonyD89

iTrader: (10)

I think he wants to get rid of the actuators also and use a replacement device.

I was thinking electronic solenoid, not sourced from the junk yard but somewhere else, with enough travel, that would actuate a central pivot that had rods going to each sleeve where there would then be another crank arm. It would have to be parallel to the action.

I thought he said he wanted them to open faster.

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

try door lock actuators.. good luck with the heat and all.( or get a long bike cable and mount them in the glove box.)
i say them cause he will need one for vdi and at least 1 for aux valves.. if not 2.

Universal Heavy Duty Power Door Lock Actuator Motor 2 Wire 12V

jjwalker

door actuators will fry under that duty cycle. Door lock actuators are rated for a 10% duty cycle but they really only a few seconds of actuation before they fry.

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

ok then, try vacuum advance diaphrams from old style gm. and skip the pump pull manifold vacuum.
https://www.google.com/search?q=vacu...42265991584409