I recently acquired a longblock & tranny out of a '91 vert. I am going to swap shortblocks into my '88 NA. After stripping the block I saw that there was an EGR hole that was plugged with JB Weld or something, so it appears that the engine I bought was really an S4 with S5 manifolds on it. I also found the 5th & 6th ports had been removed and the actuating rods were frozen in the LIM.

So, here's the questions:
1. The holes for the 5th & 6th port valves are all full of gook - should I turn the rotor until the intake port is closed by the rotor & then try to clean out the holes so that the gook & cleaning agent doesn't fall into the combustion chamber?

2. Can I use the oil injectors from the S5 on my S4 block? The S4's are mostly round with some small dimples & the S5's are hexagonal. I slightly crushed one of my S4's when removing it with pliers. The S5's came off nicely with a wrench.

3. I have a Racing Beat RoadRace true dual header & exhaust which uses an extra little pressure pipe to actuate my 5th & 6th ports. Could I tee off of this line to actuate the VDI on the S5 manifold?

4. Can I use a s5 upper on a s4 lower manifold and keep my s4 throttlebody? or should use the s5 throttle body? is there a difference?

5. I broke my half inch breaker bar trying to get the front pully bolt loose after torching the bolt for about 5 minutes and a 6ft. cheater pipe. Any recommendations?

6. Do I really need to buy a bunch of gaskets? Or is RTV good enough? I plan on rebuilding my original motor in the next 6 months or so and swapping it back in.

7. How much vacuum line, fuel line & vacuum caps will I need to eliminate the rats nest? Size lines and number of which caps?

That's about it for now. I have been searching on most of these questions for a while and found quite a bit but I still need to know about these. The RotaryResurrection site was great for alot of how-to's as well.

Ramses666

 

[
OK since no one will answer I guess I'll post my answers -
1. The holes for the 5th & 6th port valves are all full of gook - should I turn the rotor until the intake port is closed by the rotor & then try to clean out the holes so that the gook & cleaning agent doesn't fall into the combustion chamber?

Good Idead - just pray a seal isn't screwed up in the process.

2. Can I use the oil injectors from the S5 on my S4 block? The S4's are mostly round with some small dimples & the S5's are hexagonal. I slightly crushed one of my S4's when removing it with pliers. The S5's came off nicely with a wrench.

I don't see why this would be a problem

3. I have a Racing Beat RoadRace true dual header & exhaust which uses an extra little pressure pipe to actuate my 5th & 6th ports. Could I tee off of this line to actuate the VDI on the S5 manifold?

Couldn't hurt to try it - I'm sure something similar has been tried

4. Can I use a s5 upper on a s4 lower manifold and keep my s4 throttlebody? or should use the s5 throttle body? is there a difference?

Yes - the S4 lower & S5 upper manifold appear to have the same alignment relatively. I should keep the S4 throttle body to control the S4 mechanical OMP. I'll have to swap injectors & fuel rails & remove all emissions & mod throttle body.

5. I broke my half inch breaker bar trying to get the front pully bolt loose after torching the bolt for about 5 minutes and a 6ft. cheater pipe. Any recommendations?

I put a drift pin in the breaker bar & have a friend coming to help me tommorrow.

6. Do I really need to buy a bunch of gaskets? Or is RTV good enough? I plan on rebuilding my original motor in the next 6 months or so and swapping it back in.

The manifold gaskets are in good shape and the S4 front cover gasket should be deleted using the rubber o-ring & RTV as-per mazdatrix website recommendation. The oil pan and water pump should be OK with some RTV as well.

7. How much vacuum line, fuel line & vacuum caps will I need to eliminate the rats nest? Size lines and number of which caps?

My OMP vacuum spider came off intact & in good shape so I'm all right there.... I figure 6 or 10 ft. of 3/16 vacuum line and an assortment of vacuum caps (30?). As well as 6 ft. of 5/16's fuel line.

That's about it for now. I have been searching on most of these questions for a while and found quite a bit but I still need to know about these. The RotaryResurrection site was great for alot of how-to's as well.

Ramses666[/QUOTE]

 

Are you swaping or you rebuilding?

 

post 1

1)yank them out and clean them. or you can do what you mentioned.
2)idk. try it. the threads are the same.
3)not quite.
4)no.
5)try harder.
6)gaskets ftw. oil pan not so much. everything else? yes.
7)get a box of caps n **** frim advanced auto parts man and re use the **** you have left as far as lines go.


i would recommend going with premix on this one bro. would make your life easier. also, if you don't have a way to control the vdi, then you can use the s4 manifold.

ALSO

make sure not to crush the the ring gear? what do you call it? anyways. make sure the engine is completely vertical when you start taking the front cover off. this will help prevent it from dropping down and getting smashed when you put the bolt back on and tightening it.

also, OMP's aren't interchangeable.

 

ok here we go....

1.The 5th 6th port sleeves were removed when I got the longblock so the whole port passage is gunked up - I need to clean it to get my old sleeves to go in!!

2.Yes I will try the newer style OMP injectors

3. I was reading some posts about using an RPM activated switch & an air pump to activate the VDI. IIRC I need 4 - 5 psi to activate my 5th & 6th port actuaters at around 3800 RPM or so. It was also stated that I would need about 8 PSI to activate the VDI. I willing to bet I can tee off of my exhaust back pressure feed to activate the VDI - I think the pressure might be sufficient at the 5000 or so high load rpm's. So I guess this will be the experiment - it won't cost me anything to try, but an rpm switch is like 45 bucks and I would need ann auxilliary air pump as well.

4. I'm gonna go for it on keeping my S4 lower intake manifold & using a S5 upper and my S4 throttle body to keep my mechanical OMP & my functioning 5th & 6th port actuators the gaskets all look good & the fit does too.

5. I got my buddy to help hold the block down to remove the front pully bolt & tried the torch again with a big pin in my breaker bar - I bent the 6 ft cheater pipe but it finally came loose!!!

6. The only real thing I'll have to use RTV on is the Water pump & oil pan & a front cover. the EGR is already plugged and the ACV is already covered as well - I'll have to make some small plates for the BAC as well as one or two other do-dads that will be removed.

7. I'm heading to the auto parts store now to get assorted caps & cleaner & some fuel & vacuum lines & RTV.

I'm well aware of the slipping front torrington bearing issue and will take the necessary precautions. I'm gonna try & keep my mechanical OMP so I shouldn't have to premix. I guess we'll see how I do today

Ramses666

 

i think the s5 im will hit the omp rod. either way, most idiot mechanics tend to just wire that **** wide open. doesn't seem to be too bad as long as you rev the **** out of it to clean out all that extra gunk.

 

ok.... I got most of the stuff done from short block to longblock. I had a few issues I had to overcome:

The s4 throttle body will fit on the S5 upper & mid intake manifold but some grinding on the bottom inside TB casting had to be done.

When modding the S4 throttle body I had one of the four screws hold the throttle plates in stripped out on me (AAARRGGGHHH!!!) but nothing a properly sized drill bit couldn't handle. Had a little trouble with the screw on the fast idle cam - I fooled with it for a while & it doesn't seem to interfere so I left it in place - there's nothing for it to catch on so we'll see what happens.

The S4 mechanical OMP rod doesn't fit right because it hits the wider runners on the S5 mid intake mani. - It took an hour or two, but I managed to re-bend the OMP rod to clear everything & still have full un-impeded travel.

The S5 mid mani to s4 lower seemed to line up good but one stud on the lower mani was out of place and I had to drill out a hole in the mid mani. on the outside front for the stud to go through. It came out right next to the runner and doesn't have clearance to get a nut on so it will have to get by with out a nut on that stud.

I used the s5 fuel rails with the s4 injectors and also the hex-bodied OMP injectors(s5) and the s4 vacuum spider for the OMP injectors.

The S6 alternator I had previosly had on my S4 had a clearance problem with the S5 mani., but a little grinding on the pivot bolt rear casting of the alternator gave enough clearance.

The cleaning of the 5th & 6th port passages to allow the insertion of the sleeves went really easy. I used a small piece of wire to probe the inlets while turning the eccentric shaft slowly till I felt the rotor start to pinch the probe. I back off the rotor & removed the probe & then rotated the rotor again until I could feel the rotor side close the inlet. Then I used a wooden dowel wrapped with a shop towel & dipped in engine GUNK remover. I just kinda lightly twisted the dowel for a short time & removed all the crud. I repeated the procedure for the other port as well & the sleeves went right in no problem.

I cleaned alll the gasket surfaces of the front cover & the water pump & used a small bead of black RTV. I had salvaged the O-ring for the front cover & held it in place with a tiny amount of RTV as recommended in the MazdaTrix Front cover write-up.

I still have to figure out what vacuum lines to cap & which to use for which purpose. I have printed out all the RotaryResurrection Tech documents for both the S4 & S5 emissions removal procedures, but I'm in somewhat uncharted territory now & I need to decide what to do.

It looks like I need the OMP vacuum spider, Fuel Rail pressure regulator, Mainfold pressure sensor on the passenger fender.

I'm not sure about injector bleed sockets. Which are they/it? Is there one for each injector - thats what those are for? What about the center one on top of the S4 lower mani? Cap them all & pray?

I still need to cap the water outlet on the back of the pump casting & the one on the top rear of the rear iron.

I also need to make a cover plate for the BAC.

Then it's the oil pan, power steering & AC rack, clutch, trans & starter - then back into engine bay.

Am I missing anything?

Ramses666

 

Alright - another day & more progress.

I ran all the vacuum lines - not many of them actually - Fuel Pressure Regulator - OMP injectors - I capped off quite few and made a block-off palte for the EGR. New fuel lines as well. I plugged the TB water port on the water pump & the other one on the rear iron. I hook up the pressure lines for the 5th & 6th ports & the VDI for the hook up to header pressure pipe.

I ran into a few problems - The rear lifting hook on an S4 bolts to the trans-rear iron with a long bolt that sticks through the iron with the hook & a nut holding it on. The problem is that the S5 manifold is too wide for the hook to attatch. The S5 mani has a hook attatched to the manifold, but the vacuum rack that I removed provided attatchment points to the block. I didn't think it would be good to hoist the motor & trans hanging with out the needed bracing - So I had to make a connector bracket from the trans-iron location to the upper intake manifold. I used a piece from the no-longer used vacuum rack & hacked & drilled a piece to make it work. The nut wasn't really needed to hold it to the trans-iron through bolt - there was a good 3/4 - 1 inch sticking out for the bracket to fit on. It just takes the load off of the lower manifold to block connection(I already had to delete one bolt for fitment).

I screwed up & put the wrong nut on the power steering/AC rack stud & ended up with the stud out with the wrong nut stuck on it. Finally got it right. Clutch & trans went together no problem with a 2x4 under the rear iron & a skateboard under the trans. Oil pan was good with some RTV and swapping one of the sensors in the pan that had a different connector.

I think I'm ready to put it back in the car tommorrow weather permitting. I got the chain on & tried to get the angle on the hoist correct to go in easy.

Any suggetions or comments are welcome.

Ramses666

 

using the same series tranny as your car?

 

Yes - I'm using my original S4 tranny. The car was my father's that he bought new in '88. It was his baby so I know it hasn't been abused. The engine however has low compression from being driven at low rpm's. Actually it is a dealer rebuild. The original one quit at 45k miles. The odometer is at 115k now. So I picked up another motor used to keep me going until I rebuild the one I just took out.

Ramses666

 

Alright....

Here's an update. I went I pick up my drunk friend freddy to help me stab the motor & trans back in. How can somebody be drunk at 8:30 A.M. anyway? I made an atttempt and quickly found out that my time saving leaving of the exhaust shield in place was really a time burner. I removed the shield & got the drivers side trans mount bolts in. I got the passenger side motor mount bolt in the slot, but had difficulty with getting the drivers side single hole bolt to go through the hole. It started raining so I wrapped it up at that point.

The car was all catay-wampas at that point so I'm gonna bail-out to two jacks in front. It's bad enough that I'm on a slope as it is. I'll get everything straight first & then try to get the rest lined up correctly. It was funny - as soon as the motor was in the car my phone started ringing with some jobs to do - go figure - I got the job and now will have the weekend to get it all back together again !!!

Ramses666

 

cygnus, why did you say he couldn't use the s5 UIM w/s4 LIM? As long as he also has the VDI chamber section, it should work just fine...it's been done before: http://howto.globalvicinity.com/gv_w...i=63&co=1&vi=1

 

Ok... More progress today. I managed to get all the motor & trans mounts in place & tightened up. I had to put a chain around the passenger side motor mount & barely take the load off of it & then used some pry bar action to get the drivers side mount into the hole. Then it was more pry bar action at the trans. & the passenger mount fell in.

I thought I would save time & effort by leaving the exhaust together & not removing the heat shield from the back of the trans. MISTAKE Get that stuff out of the way. I had to take it all off anyway. Fortunately my True Dual Racing Beat exhaust is only a few years old & the bolts all came off easily. It was easy to get the header back on with it seperated from the presilencer. It wouldn't have gone back on while still bolted together.

I got the drive shaft bolted back up & rehung the rest of the exhaust & hooked up a bunch of connectors & stuff. I still have a bunch more stuff to hook up tommorrow, but I'm gaining on it. I have yet to re-install the shifter, main harness to ECU, rear oil cooler line, power steering & AC belts, radiator, shroud, hoses, fan & fluids, AFM & the battery.

Holy crap it's hard to believe how filthy, greasy, grimy & nasty a 20 year old car is. Before I started I used a whole can of engine cleaner & I don't think it did anything at all. After I rebuild my original engine core I'm gonna clean & detail & paint the damn thing. It a miracle the hot exhaust hasn't set the whole underside on fire. I'm so filthy I wanna puke - the smell isn't the greatest either.

Ramses666

 

Wow! That link to the global vicinty site had everything I needed to know. I wish I had seen that a week ago. I'll have to check my vacuum lines & see what I messed up. That link should really help take out the guess work out of the vacuum line situation.

Ramses666

 

i thought he was gonna use the mid section.

 

Yes - I used the upper & mid sections of the s5 intake manifold. I kept my S4 throttle body and LIM.

Ramses666

 

I understand about the dirt and grease that's in and under the car. I've been trying to clean parts and now my apartment smells like engine degreaser (I think the fumes help me sleep at night, heh).

 

Alright... More progress. I went back & removed the upper & mid intake mani's to fix some things I should have done right to start with. I ground out clearance for the lower to mid nut that I had deleted - It didn't take long to grind out room for a nut to spin, but it sure took long enough to actually get it tight 'cause I could only turn it a little bit at a time.

I replaced a stud for the throttlebody that was too short with one from the s4 upper. I re-did the vacuum lines since I now have a diagram - Thanx jOrd4n... that link was a lot of help... All the vac lines are done correctly now with out any guess work. It required some tees and I re-used some old lines... I found if I cut the old lines back a little I could re-use them. I needed about 5 ft. of new line.

It's amazing how much easier it is to understand how these cars work when you take it apart & put it back together again. I'm sure it will make more sense when I get around to rebuilding my old block. Why are there so many un-used connectors cluttering up everything? I'm not talking about the vacuum rack solenoids - I mean a bunch of other ones on both sides of the engine bay. Could it be for diagnostics or something? Anyway that's it for now... I think i'll get cleaned up & go to the Beach & watch the Daytona 500.

Ramses666

 

No problem, Ramses. His site has helped my understanding a lot, too, but I agree that taking these things apart is the best way to learn.

I think most of the un-used connectors are either diagnostic (as you mentioned) or for things that aren't in your car, ie: if your car doesn't have power steering, the power steering sensor is still there.

Have fun at the Daytona 500. I'd like to check that out, and it's a great day to do it!

 

Well... I decided there was enough time to put some more stuff back on before going out. Air intake & K&N filter, radiator & hoses, AC & power steering belts, fan & filled up the coolant. All that's left is hooking up the starter wires, rear oil line & the trans. wires & a few misc. wires underneath along with trans. fluid & engine oil - also the power steering fluid & the shifter. I should finish up tommorrow.

Ramses666

 

ok.. I took a day off from work to get everything done. I man-handled the rear oil cooler line back into place... I was worried for a few minutes that it wouldn't line up, but a few whacks with a Ford wrench got it lined up enough to get it connected. It another battle to get the under-car electrical connections to be long enough to hook up. It didn't make any sense until I realized I had one hooked up to the wrong connector... then they went right together.

I filled the trans. full of lube....I bought one of those sucker-pumper things and it took quite a bit more than I thought... Can I over-fill a transmission? I'm sitting on a slope so we'll see. Engine oil went in no problem & I filled the power steering pump. Got the wiring harness hooked up to computer with relative ease.

Hooked up the battery end turned the key.... Nothing - nothing at all. The headlights & hazards worked that was it. I got out my trusty multi-meter & checked every fuse... all checked out good. I rooted around looking for something I forgot. Finally found a connector I hadn't disconnected between the drivers shock tower & the battery. That did the trick & it turned over but wouldn't start. I started checking stuff. I had spark So I checked fuel... no gas on the return line. Turns out I had the lines backwards...DOH!!! Even after switching the fuel lines back to the correct places it still wouldn't spit any fuel out of the return. When I started checking the swapped lines the one after the FPR had fuel & pressure so I'm sure the pump is working... maybe there is still air trapped in there.. I ran all the injector bleeds and stuff so maybe it will take a little more time to bleed it all out. Maybe the pump won't flow all the way out of the return line until it's all purged out...

on a more positive note it ALMOST STARTED... I tried turning the CAS a little from one end to the other. It was sounding like it was gonna crank & the battery gave up... I'll wait till morning & try again.

Ramses666

 

Well... Got up this morning & cleaned the plugs - I had pumped some ATF fluid up into the throttle body last night because when I was cranking the motor it didn't sound like there was much compression. It was starting to sound/feel better last night. I hooked the plugs up to all four wires & set them up on the tower so I could see all four were sparking. Also got a dribble of fuel out of the return line so I plugged it back up. It took a while but SHE STARTED!!!!! White smoke & misfires up the wazzoo!! No fluid leaks either.

It wouldn't hold an idle so I started adjusting the CAS & the TPS & the idle screw and the throttle cable tensioner to try to get things right. Doesn't want to hold an idle... but it revs up real nice now. I'm gonna let it cool down & pull & clean the plugs again. It is real lopy when trying to idle... like a seal isn't working properly on one rotor or something. Oil pressure & temp were good & no check engine light either.

I had made a plate to cover the BAC but bailed out on that last night. The plate wasn't seating all the way down due to the difference in thickness of my block-off plate and the BAC. I ended up with the stud coming out of the mani and it took a while to get it changed around. I put my S4 BAC on there but didn't wire it up yet. I'll have to extend the wires 'cause its on the passenger side of the manifold opposite of the original location. I deleted the coolant lines to it but that shouldn't matter. We'll see what happens.

Ramses666

 

Have a 93...thinking about getting a 89, whats the difference..is there a difference. my friend in his 89 always leaves me behind when we race

 

you have a 3rd generation car... You should be dusting your buddy unless you don't know what your doing (or your ride has problems) or your friend is on the ball.

Why are you in the 2nd gen section? Most people in this section of the Forum wish they could afford one of those. All things being equal you should outperform your buddy's 2nd Gen car.

Wanna trade?

Ramses666

 

OK... I extended the wires & hooked up my BAC. It kept the car running at idle but it was real bouncy... You could here the BAC working the idle. I deleted the coolant lines to it so it seems to be keeping the idle a little higher than needed. It's bouncing between 900 to 1500 sitting in the driveway, but it runs!!! I dicked around with the idle screw, idle enrichment pot, throttle cable adjustment, and the main throttle plate stop screw.

I got all cleaned up & went out to give a quote on a job at the beach. The car was driveable, but really throttle sensitive. The brakes hardly worked at all. It runs really good when on the throttle but doesn't like to put around at 2k or so, but it will do it... just tends to be a little jerky... once it jumps a little my foot bounces a little & it just gets worse from there unless I make a throttle adjustment either more or less.

I turned on the stock radio and heard a constant pop-pop-pop that seemed to be synchronous with the low rpm misfires. That would seem to be a problem with the spark running close to or leaking into the electrical system. When I installed my S6 100 amp alternator I had to run a positive line from the ALT. to the battery. Maybe this unshielded wire is the culprit.

I also figure that my brake problem is vacuum related. I thought I hooked up the original line from the lower intake manifold to the brake booster, but maybe something is amiss with the vacuum setup. That could also have alot to do with the bouncing idle. I was thinking about hooking up the coolant lines to the BAC to get me a lower idle as well.

I put 50 miles on her today... 24 miles to the beach & back 55-60 MPH max... On the ride home I detoured out to I-95 for a couple of high speed pulls. IT FELT AWESOME!!! to run through the gears again after 3 months of not running. The car pulled nice & smooth through all the gears... I even got a chance to bury 4th gear at about 120... 5th gear was about the same as always... maybe a mile or 2 faster depending on the hill, valley or straight-away.

I couldn't really tell any difference for when the different ports were opening, but it was really smooth... When I was in the driveway I could rev up the motor & see the 5th & 6th ports start to open without a load so I'm pretty sure they are working. I'm guessing the VDI is opening at some point, but haven't figured out a way to tell without rigging some indicator or spending $$ on some RPM switches.

Over all I Very Happy to have my car running again. I need to check out a few "issues", but I'm relieved the damned thing actually runs....

I paid $350 for the longblock & Tranny. That came out fairly cheap considering...
I have my original short block I can rebuild at my leisure
It cost me $50 to pick it up
less than $200 for an engine hoist
another $100 in misc. supplies - oil, lube, hose, vacuum caps, sucker pump ect.

So that was $700 to get my car running again. That was way less than what it would have cost to pull the motor & ship it to have it rebuilt. No matter what, I would have needed all the supplies anyway.

I'll see how it goes tracking down the left over "issues" tommorrow!!!

Ramses666