Running methanol
03-27-06, 03:26 PM
#1
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Running methanol
I found somone who can get me 55 Gal. Drums of ethanol for dirt cheap <60$ while consumint almost 2x as much gas for the same power is still alot cheaper than almost 3$ /gal. for gas. Im in the middle of putting in a jspec TII w/ some mods and thougth this would be a good project to convert over to ethanol or perhaps a mix like that new E-85 that im starting to see. This is not going to be a daily driver. Perhaps a weekend driver and something to take to the track on occasion. I know I would need to almost double the capacity of the fuel delivery system (injectors, lines, pump,etc) but is there anything else I would need to do (besides tuning). and sugestions before I do somthing stupid and blow my car to hell :P. Thanks
03-27-06, 06:58 PM
#4
Ethanol and Methanol are two different things.
Ethanol does not release as much energy as gasoline does per amount used. It's stoichiometric a/f ratio is also very rich compared to gasoline. These are downsides. Straight Ethanol is however 110 octane. It will always be a compromise to use it in existing engines but if you could build a higher compression ratio engine to account for it, it isn't that bad of a fuel. I actually like the idea of running on it. Alot of hate towards Ethanol and other fuels is quite simply a lack of knowledge on the differences and what needs to be done to run them at their top potential.
Running Ethanol on your current engine will definitely be a decrease in gas mileage over gasoline. It will require retuning. You don't have to change the shape of the map much but you do have to richen it up by at least 30% or so. You can also advance the ignition timing by a few degrees. With a standalone ecu, this is easy. If you can get a 55 gallon drum at that price, you are only paying a little over $1 a gallon. Sounds good to me. I'd run on Ethaol all day if I could get it for that price.
There are some concerns with it. Ethanol does not like certain types of rubber. You actually might not have any problems with what you already have but just watch the rubber fuel line parts. You can find hoses and other things fairly easily that can stand up to it. It would definitely be recommended that you use a plasit fuel cell for a gas tank. One thing about Ethanaol is that it needs to be stored in an air tight container. This is because it absorbs water from the air. In your gas tank this can also happen. Then the water settles to the bottom while the Ethanol floats on it. In a metal tank, this can lead to corrosion and rusting of the tank. Use plastic.
Since it is only going to be a weekend/fun car, go for it. Use a fairly small fuel cell if you don't intend to drive it far at a time so you don't have alot of fuel sitting around absorbing water into the gas tank. It won't just keep absorbing it indefinitely but you just don't want any water in there.
The nice thing about using it on a T-II is the higher octane. You may actually end up getting more power than gasoline based on how you have it set up. Higher octane means you can run more boost safer with less chance of detonation. I say got for it and tell us how it goes. Now if someone could just make a direct injection diesel rotary, I'll be really happy.
Ethanol does not release as much energy as gasoline does per amount used. It's stoichiometric a/f ratio is also very rich compared to gasoline. These are downsides. Straight Ethanol is however 110 octane. It will always be a compromise to use it in existing engines but if you could build a higher compression ratio engine to account for it, it isn't that bad of a fuel. I actually like the idea of running on it. Alot of hate towards Ethanol and other fuels is quite simply a lack of knowledge on the differences and what needs to be done to run them at their top potential.
Running Ethanol on your current engine will definitely be a decrease in gas mileage over gasoline. It will require retuning. You don't have to change the shape of the map much but you do have to richen it up by at least 30% or so. You can also advance the ignition timing by a few degrees. With a standalone ecu, this is easy. If you can get a 55 gallon drum at that price, you are only paying a little over $1 a gallon. Sounds good to me. I'd run on Ethaol all day if I could get it for that price.
There are some concerns with it. Ethanol does not like certain types of rubber. You actually might not have any problems with what you already have but just watch the rubber fuel line parts. You can find hoses and other things fairly easily that can stand up to it. It would definitely be recommended that you use a plasit fuel cell for a gas tank. One thing about Ethanaol is that it needs to be stored in an air tight container. This is because it absorbs water from the air. In your gas tank this can also happen. Then the water settles to the bottom while the Ethanol floats on it. In a metal tank, this can lead to corrosion and rusting of the tank. Use plastic.
Since it is only going to be a weekend/fun car, go for it. Use a fairly small fuel cell if you don't intend to drive it far at a time so you don't have alot of fuel sitting around absorbing water into the gas tank. It won't just keep absorbing it indefinitely but you just don't want any water in there.
The nice thing about using it on a T-II is the higher octane. You may actually end up getting more power than gasoline based on how you have it set up. Higher octane means you can run more boost safer with less chance of detonation. I say got for it and tell us how it goes. Now if someone could just make a direct injection diesel rotary, I'll be really happy.
03-28-06, 08:33 AM
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thanks alot for the advice. Im definitly going for it. Mabey I could convert my daily driver to it too and be done with going to a gas station.
03-28-06, 08:16 PM
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its a fun idea i say go for it, i ran 10% E last week because the station no longer carried regular gas, no change in anything of course 10% is a long way off from 85%
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04-10-06, 10:30 AM
#13
Full Member
What percentage ethanol is 93-octane gas? What percentage ethanol can a stock 3rd gen RX-7 run without any harmful effects?
Last edited by grotto107; 04-10-06 at 10:32 AM.
04-10-06, 02:10 PM
#16
Originally Posted by slpin
inconvience.
The fact is, you dont even know half the science involved in what you are spouting off. I have friends right now that are converting thier rotaries to E-85, and I run injection while subtracting fuel. Alcohol is, as of now, one of the few viable solutions to what many believe to be an impending shortage of oil. Although the Net Energy Balance of Alcohol here in the states is still around 85%, there are already countries that have made the switch and are running in positive NEB.
So whats the problem? Too much work to retrofit some of the rubber lining and upgrade the fuel pump and injectors? Afraid of having to pump 30 or so percent more fuel into the motor? Fact is, its easier then you think. Most people here are DIYers anyways, so this shouldnt be much of a stretch.
As far as E85 hurting the power, that wont happen. With an effective octane rating of somewhere around 107, and no nasty carbon buildup from Dino fuel, its an alternative fuel with little drawbacks unless you believe HAILER's theory of bacon prices.
Rat
04-10-06, 02:30 PM
#18
Originally Posted by J-Rat
The fact is, you dont even know half the science involved in what you are spouting off. I have friends right now that are converting thier rotaries to E-85, and I run injection while subtracting fuel. Alcohol is, as of now, one of the few viable solutions to what many believe to be an impending shortage of oil. Although the Net Energy Balance of Alcohol here in the states is still around 85%, there are already countries that have made the switch and are running in positive NEB.
So whats the problem? Too much work to retrofit some of the rubber lining and upgrade the fuel pump and injectors? Afraid of having to pump 30 or so percent more fuel into the motor? Fact is, its easier then you think. Most people here are DIYers anyways, so this shouldnt be much of a stretch.
As far as E85 hurting the power, that wont happen. With an effective octane rating of somewhere around 107, and no nasty carbon buildup from Dino fuel, its an alternative fuel with little drawbacks unless you believe HAILER's theory of bacon prices.
Rat
So whats the problem? Too much work to retrofit some of the rubber lining and upgrade the fuel pump and injectors? Afraid of having to pump 30 or so percent more fuel into the motor? Fact is, its easier then you think. Most people here are DIYers anyways, so this shouldnt be much of a stretch.
As far as E85 hurting the power, that wont happen. With an effective octane rating of somewhere around 107, and no nasty carbon buildup from Dino fuel, its an alternative fuel with little drawbacks unless you believe HAILER's theory of bacon prices.
Rat
i have researched on it and know about it before you have alcohol injection in your car.
if they have alky at the pump, i would be among the many converting.
and it goes back to what i said - inconvience.
04-10-06, 03:10 PM
#19
Originally Posted by slpin
nope, not that
i have researched on it and know about it before you have alcohol injection in your car.
i have researched on it and know about it before you have alcohol injection in your car.
if they have alky at the pump, i would be among the many converting.
and it goes back to what i said - inconvience.
and it goes back to what i said - inconvience.
I have 3 gas stations in my area, the closest peing 1/4 mile away, that pump E-85. Converting your car to E-85 with no way to aquire it isnt an inconvienience, thats just poor planning in general. So on that point I would agree. Just remember when you make blanket statements like that, understand that some of us have E-85 readily available.
04-10-06, 03:14 PM
#20
Originally Posted by Digi7ech
I think E85 would be awesome to run.
What's the going rate per gallon right now?
One concern I have is the Coolant seals. Do you think the E85 would be able to eat them?
What's the going rate per gallon right now?
One concern I have is the Coolant seals. Do you think the E85 would be able to eat them?
I have no data that would suggest that it would, but I dont have any data to suggest that it wont.
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