Running Carb Cleaner Through Air Intake
05-14-02, 06:59 PM
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Running Carb Cleaner Through Air Intake
I just ran a can of STP carb and throttle body cleaner through my engine.
Started by heating up a 3/16th nail and melting a hole in the intake bellows just above where the long bellows attaches to the short piece that bolts onto the intake manifold - angled the hole so that the red plastic thingy from the can pointed straight at the intake - the first thing I found out was that the intake sucks the plastic straw right out of the can! Luckily it stuck in the intake and didn't make it into the engine! So, try again with a lot of plastic tape on the straw and this got the job done - stalled several times and ran rough as hell for a while, but I got the whole can through the system.
Results - went for a high rev burn immediately afterward and it pulls really strong in all gears, but it always did! Only difference I see at this point is that the idle instead of bouncing between 6 and 8 is now steady at 9, which ain't quite right - maybe it'll settle down after some more running - I didn't see any smoke to speak off and no chunks coming out of the exhaust - sealed the hole with some silicon and we'll see what happens from here.
Also had a full tank and threw a bottle of MMO into the tank before I started.
Stock 87 n/a.
Started by heating up a 3/16th nail and melting a hole in the intake bellows just above where the long bellows attaches to the short piece that bolts onto the intake manifold - angled the hole so that the red plastic thingy from the can pointed straight at the intake - the first thing I found out was that the intake sucks the plastic straw right out of the can! Luckily it stuck in the intake and didn't make it into the engine! So, try again with a lot of plastic tape on the straw and this got the job done - stalled several times and ran rough as hell for a while, but I got the whole can through the system.
Results - went for a high rev burn immediately afterward and it pulls really strong in all gears, but it always did! Only difference I see at this point is that the idle instead of bouncing between 6 and 8 is now steady at 9, which ain't quite right - maybe it'll settle down after some more running - I didn't see any smoke to speak off and no chunks coming out of the exhaust - sealed the hole with some silicon and we'll see what happens from here.
Also had a full tank and threw a bottle of MMO into the tank before I started.
Stock 87 n/a.
05-14-02, 08:36 PM
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Did you see our big-*** thread about this a few weeks ago? You could have just dumped the CC into a vac line instead of making that hole... 
05-14-02, 09:53 PM
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Well, I'd do both.
You can clean out the vacuum passeges by using the vacuum line, but that misses the throttle body, butterflies, and VDI. (89+)
You can clean out the vacuum passeges by using the vacuum line, but that misses the throttle body, butterflies, and VDI. (89+)
05-14-02, 10:50 PM
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Originally posted by Bambam7
You can clean out the vacuum passeges by using the vacuum line, but that misses the throttle body, butterflies, and VDI. (89+)
You can clean out the vacuum passeges by using the vacuum line, but that misses the throttle body, butterflies, and VDI. (89+)
05-14-02, 11:05 PM
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NZ- I don't know about you, but every time I've seen carb cleaner sprayed into an engine (ANY engine) it needs a good bit of throttle to stay running! Do it at idle and it'll stall very quickly.
OK- it'll clean HALF of the VDI pasages... if you want, flip the lever and wedge it for a second of spraying.
OK- it'll clean HALF of the VDI pasages... if you want, flip the lever and wedge it for a second of spraying.
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05-14-02, 11:31 PM
#8
Rotary Freak
Ive never seen people work so hard to screw up somthing....
So let me get this straight....
You BURNT A HOLE IN YOUR INTAKE DUCTING?
Just so you could put a can of liquid DEATH into your running engine.
I would bet money that your rotor housings are regretting the day that you did this.
I was going to say somthing to the dude that did this before.. but i refreined becuase he claimed his results were POSITIVE.
I have researched this further since and have done this myself on a older running car about to get a new shortblock anyway.
Results?
It washed down the chambers of ALL oil and lubrication.
Resulting in an IMMENSE AMOUNT of wear of the rotor housing and apex seal parts.
The previous person to do this probably stopped JUST as his engine had HONED (carved) new seats for the apex seals.
As most of us here know, these engines get a bit "brighter" right before the go BOOM.
(Like a light bulb)
Thei "brightness" phase can last an indeterminate period depending on how you drive.
I think that all the previous person that did this accompllished was to brin his engine smack into this phase and is due for an engine SOON.
As for anyone else? (this includes my experiment)
The rotor housings literally start to grind up.
As do the apex seals.
The rotor housing I just saw, was "fine" before the treatment, and the ocmpression was "okay", but after a can of STP carb cleaner in the vaccum line, the rotor housing was TOAST, and the compression was up slightly in the front and WAY DOWN in the rear.
It DID "Seem" to run better (especially at idle)...
After teardown, the rear housing chome surface had begun to "roll" off the aluminum.
the apex seals were TINY and definately about to go "crack"
Conclusion:
I dont think that this is a reccommended procedure for ANY rotary engine.
Piston engines handle this VERY DIFFERENTLY because with every "up stroke" the piston makes, oild is splashed into the cylinder.
Rotaries need oil injection to lube the apex to housing seat AT ALL TIMES. ('cept idle)
DANGER WILL ROBINSON.
If you do this....
Open your "new shortblock" savings accounts now.
You BURNT A HOLE IN YOUR INTAKE DUCTING?
Just so you could put a can of liquid DEATH into your running engine.
I would bet money that your rotor housings are regretting the day that you did this.
I was going to say somthing to the dude that did this before.. but i refreined becuase he claimed his results were POSITIVE.
I have researched this further since and have done this myself on a older running car about to get a new shortblock anyway.
Results?
It washed down the chambers of ALL oil and lubrication.
Resulting in an IMMENSE AMOUNT of wear of the rotor housing and apex seal parts.
The previous person to do this probably stopped JUST as his engine had HONED (carved) new seats for the apex seals.
As most of us here know, these engines get a bit "brighter" right before the go BOOM.
(Like a light bulb)
Thei "brightness" phase can last an indeterminate period depending on how you drive.
I think that all the previous person that did this accompllished was to brin his engine smack into this phase and is due for an engine SOON.
As for anyone else? (this includes my experiment)
The rotor housings literally start to grind up.
As do the apex seals.
The rotor housing I just saw, was "fine" before the treatment, and the ocmpression was "okay", but after a can of STP carb cleaner in the vaccum line, the rotor housing was TOAST, and the compression was up slightly in the front and WAY DOWN in the rear.
It DID "Seem" to run better (especially at idle)...
After teardown, the rear housing chome surface had begun to "roll" off the aluminum.
the apex seals were TINY and definately about to go "crack"
Conclusion:
I dont think that this is a reccommended procedure for ANY rotary engine.
Piston engines handle this VERY DIFFERENTLY because with every "up stroke" the piston makes, oild is splashed into the cylinder.
Rotaries need oil injection to lube the apex to housing seat AT ALL TIMES. ('cept idle)
DANGER WILL ROBINSON.
If you do this....
Open your "new shortblock" savings accounts now.
05-15-02, 04:40 AM
#9
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Did you see the internals b4 doing your experiment? If not, it sounds like half an experiment and half a guess.
And they get it - behold the OMP. It doesn't stop working just because there's a new element (CC) in the chambers.
Rotaries need oil injection to lube the apex to housing seat AT ALL TIMES. ('cept idle)
05-15-02, 05:29 AM
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Guys, this is -again- going nowhere. Since there are some people that had succesful attempts at this, then I guess there some truth behind the whole "CC directly in the engine". On the other hand Sniper_X swears that he witnessed major seal deterioration during this process. We not only have contradicting statemets and facts, but also contradicting evidence 
It all comes down to this: you either do it, or you dont. I am somewhere in the middle, because I did it only half-way (1/3 of the can and through the AFM). Didnt notice anything. As always, we need to wait and see if those guys that actually did this on their daily driven engines will have something to say in a couple of weeks/months...
It all comes down to this: you either do it, or you dont. I am somewhere in the middle, because I did it only half-way (1/3 of the can and through the AFM). Didnt notice anything. As always, we need to wait and see if those guys that actually did this on their daily driven engines will have something to say in a couple of weeks/months...
05-15-02, 09:44 AM
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The is a MAJOR ELEMENT that some people (like Sniper_X) keep leaving out, and one that I stress is PARAMOUNT to doing this treatment succesfully!
LUBRICATION IN THE BRAND OF CLEANER...
Geez... how many times do I have to mention this...
Sure, if you run a plain degreaser though the engine, it may clean, but I would never do that in a million years, due to the fact that it renders the injected oil useless for that period of time (which really isn't much anyways)
Use a carb cleaner that states it contains lubricants.... that's all I have to say... again....
LUBRICATION IN THE BRAND OF CLEANER...
Geez... how many times do I have to mention this...
Sure, if you run a plain degreaser though the engine, it may clean, but I would never do that in a million years, due to the fact that it renders the injected oil useless for that period of time (which really isn't much anyways)
Use a carb cleaner that states it contains lubricants.... that's all I have to say... again....
05-15-02, 11:28 AM
#12
Rotary Freak
"it sounds like half an experiment and half a guess. "
I DID make observations of the engine PRIOR to doing this.
(I am one of the FEW people here that don't make a habit of making half guesses.)
" behold the OMP. It doesn't stop working just because there's a new element (CC) in the chambers"
And I know ALL ABOUT THE OMP. I never suggested it stopped working at any time.
I suggested that my observations of LOWER compression in the rear rotor AFTER the carb cleaner, was shocking.
(Although I also saw HIGHER compression in the front. )
The rear rotor housing had rolled its chrome finish off in places and was deteriorated.
I did observer the engine with a mirror and a q-beam light via the exhaust ports before i did this.
I also looked at that same spot i was looking at after the teardown and there was damage where there was none before...
I know that there is "lubrication" in the carb cleaner.
However, i have more than a "users" familiarity with this stuff because I use it as a cleaner for parts still on the car and for parts that dont fit in my dip tank.
The lubrication is MINIMAL if there is any at all.
The bottom line is, the apex seals were had VERY SHARP EDGES on them on a 150k+ motor when I examined them.
They should have been rounded.
They were CLEARLY scraped and sharpened recently and the carb cleaner was certainly the culprit.
Theres no other explanation for it.
Theres NO REASON those apex seals should have had KNIFE SHARP "squared off" surfaces at this mileage.
They all are rounded at this milage.
this is why i suggested that the engine was "re-cutting" new seats for these parts.
I'll only put CC again in an engine that is about to be changed to see if there is any redeeming value.
I would go with water (introduced S L O W L Y ) via a vacuum line before i would do this.
It has a better reputation for cleaning.
(Ive seen water injection installed on cars for years now, those are clean as a whistle if its used properly)
I DID make observations of the engine PRIOR to doing this.
(I am one of the FEW people here that don't make a habit of making half guesses.)
" behold the OMP. It doesn't stop working just because there's a new element (CC) in the chambers"
And I know ALL ABOUT THE OMP. I never suggested it stopped working at any time.
I suggested that my observations of LOWER compression in the rear rotor AFTER the carb cleaner, was shocking.
(Although I also saw HIGHER compression in the front. )
The rear rotor housing had rolled its chrome finish off in places and was deteriorated.
I did observer the engine with a mirror and a q-beam light via the exhaust ports before i did this.
I also looked at that same spot i was looking at after the teardown and there was damage where there was none before...
I know that there is "lubrication" in the carb cleaner.
However, i have more than a "users" familiarity with this stuff because I use it as a cleaner for parts still on the car and for parts that dont fit in my dip tank.
The lubrication is MINIMAL if there is any at all.
The bottom line is, the apex seals were had VERY SHARP EDGES on them on a 150k+ motor when I examined them.
They should have been rounded.
They were CLEARLY scraped and sharpened recently and the carb cleaner was certainly the culprit.
Theres no other explanation for it.
Theres NO REASON those apex seals should have had KNIFE SHARP "squared off" surfaces at this mileage.
They all are rounded at this milage.
this is why i suggested that the engine was "re-cutting" new seats for these parts.
I'll only put CC again in an engine that is about to be changed to see if there is any redeeming value.
I would go with water (introduced S L O W L Y ) via a vacuum line before i would do this.
It has a better reputation for cleaning.
(Ive seen water injection installed on cars for years now, those are clean as a whistle if its used properly)
Last edited by Sniper_X; 05-15-02 at 11:31 AM.
05-15-02, 01:43 PM
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Probably should have mentioned that I was reving up and down the power band while puting the cleaner in, but took it for granted that anyone who has used it on any kind of engine would have known that!
I'm confident that this would have covered all the internal componets in the throttle body and etc. This was the whole idea of putting it into the intake and not into a vacumn hose, duh!
With regard to lubrication, I'm pretty sure the 10z of MMO in the gas tank would have taken care of that, but we'll just have to wait an see what the long term results are - my idle is still steady at 9 thou.
Ian.
I'm confident that this would have covered all the internal componets in the throttle body and etc. This was the whole idea of putting it into the intake and not into a vacumn hose, duh!
With regard to lubrication, I'm pretty sure the 10z of MMO in the gas tank would have taken care of that, but we'll just have to wait an see what the long term results are - my idle is still steady at 9 thou.
Ian.
05-15-02, 03:56 PM
#14
Rotary Freak
ian, do a compression check.
Also readjust hat idle back down to 750 and adjust hte TPS.
see if it has enough ooph to hold the idle solid with the A/C , steering and headlights on all at different times.
The idle shouldnt fluxuate more than 100 RPM +-.
750 RPM should be able to hold completely stone cold at that number during all the ac and other accessories on off states.
This is how my 130k car does.
Also readjust hat idle back down to 750 and adjust hte TPS.
see if it has enough ooph to hold the idle solid with the A/C , steering and headlights on all at different times.
The idle shouldnt fluxuate more than 100 RPM +-.
750 RPM should be able to hold completely stone cold at that number during all the ac and other accessories on off states.
This is how my 130k car does.
05-15-02, 04:14 PM
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I don't know if the engine was going to die anyway but after I ran a can of carb cleaner thru the intake the engine locked up 2500 miles later. I did the regular oil changes at 2000-2500 miles and took good care of the car yet with only 105,000 miles it locked up. I bought the car with 54,000 on it with good compression. I'm not sure if the CC was the reason but it sure makes me wonder about it.
05-15-02, 04:56 PM
#17
Rotary Freak
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by canman6969
"it puts the plastic thingy in the hole"
I thought the quote was hilarious too!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by canman6969
"it puts the plastic thingy in the hole"
I thought the quote was hilarious too!
05-15-02, 06:48 PM
#18
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I don't know if the engine was going to die anyway but after I ran a can of carb cleaner thru the intake the engine locked up 2500 miles later.
And, Sniper, please note the use of the word 'if' in my last post. That wasn't 'sposed to be a flame. Just a question. And I'm sorry if my glibness about the OMP p.o.'ed you.
I've done this trick with my engine and reading your post made me nervous. So I questioned it. Our recent big-*** thread about this concluded with one guy suggesting that at its worst, the CC trick would *probably* mimic the same conditions inside the engine as a cold start. If so, that's something that I can easily live with. Then I read your post and thought, 'God, I hope Sniper's got it wrong!'
I haven't done a compression check, but it's now a 'rainy day' priority (which may be tomorrow here.)
I'll report the results.
Last edited by Amur_; 05-15-02 at 06:56 PM.
06-26-02, 09:30 AM
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Carb cleaner is NASTY stuff. I would NEVER run a can of it into a FI intake. It can eat or deform almost any non metal part it comes in contact with. If you are looking for maximum gains from a clean intake, take your car down for a couple of days and try the long way. It will give you superior results. My car was at 130K when I did this.
Pull the manifolds and injectors. RC engineering can service the injectors with one day turn around. While that's going on, you can REALLY clean the manifolds. This also gives you a chance to replace the pulsation damper. Good preventive maintenance on a high mileage car.
I would suggest at least port matching the manifold sections and gaskets at the same time. Don't know why, but the ports between the stock manifold sections do not quite match up for size. (At least mine didn't) It's not hard to match them up using a rotary file, a grider bit, and a drill. You will notice a difference when you put it all back together. Or you could do a more radical manifold port as described in several other threads. I haven't tried that. I also changed out the vacuum lines with silicone. There are several of them that you can't get at easily while the manifolds are in place.
Your injectors will function as new. The intake flow will be improved - both from cleaning and port matching. You aren't risking any of the engine internals.
Cost - ~$100.00 to RC Engineering - ~$50.00 for gaskets, o-rings, grommets ~$135.00 for s5 primary fuel rail (Mazdaformance). Silicone hose @ $2.00/foot.
The results were noticeable and well worth it on my vehicle.
Pull the manifolds and injectors. RC engineering can service the injectors with one day turn around. While that's going on, you can REALLY clean the manifolds. This also gives you a chance to replace the pulsation damper. Good preventive maintenance on a high mileage car.
I would suggest at least port matching the manifold sections and gaskets at the same time. Don't know why, but the ports between the stock manifold sections do not quite match up for size. (At least mine didn't) It's not hard to match them up using a rotary file, a grider bit, and a drill. You will notice a difference when you put it all back together. Or you could do a more radical manifold port as described in several other threads. I haven't tried that. I also changed out the vacuum lines with silicone. There are several of them that you can't get at easily while the manifolds are in place.
Your injectors will function as new. The intake flow will be improved - both from cleaning and port matching. You aren't risking any of the engine internals.
Cost - ~$100.00 to RC Engineering - ~$50.00 for gaskets, o-rings, grommets ~$135.00 for s5 primary fuel rail (Mazdaformance). Silicone hose @ $2.00/foot.
The results were noticeable and well worth it on my vehicle.
06-26-02, 10:54 AM
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Well when i replaced my auxillary port actuators with pineapple sleeves, from all the carb cleaner used to free up the sleeve ports..... when i finally got the car started again, it was detonating like crazy.... kept hearing metal pings which finally subsided...
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