The Rtek (stock s4 & s5 CEL system) and Power FC self diagnostics are pretty similar. They will tell you if a sensor voltage is too high or too low which is what is typical for late 80s/early 90s engine computers.

Since this seems to have been asked more than once I answer the question.

Goals:
1. I have no power goals in mind at this time. Maybe a broader powerband through tuning.
2. Currently experimenting on NA engine to get the most I can out of it.
3. I want an ECU that I can use for both NA and Turbo, because I am currently collecting parts to do the conversion to a T2 6-port setup. So using the PFC will give me much more flexibility in that area.
4. In order to make my engine as efficient as possible, without spending an arm and a leg, I will need a much newer ECU, which at this time means the Rtek is out of the question, as has been said, it's resolution is a bit dated and is a lot slower then modern ECUs. Which means the PFC is currently in play, it comes with a base map from the guys at Banzai-Racing, it's good at what it does, it's proven.
5. I'm in California, I need to make sure that I'm using an ECU that doesn't draw to much attention, and it looks like the PFC can be mounted in the stock location. I also can utilize most stock sensors and can easily revert back to stock if I so desire, especially if I am required to smog it.


Current plans for mods are going to be:
- 4-RX8 Secondary Yellow injectors
- Corksport Header
- Corksport Catback
- Stock Main Cat
- Ignition Amplification box (MSD 6A perhaps)

I'm sure there is more I can do, but I want to see what this engine is capable of with modern tech, since as far as I'm concerned not many have done. So far an ITS RX7 race car has put down 199 RWHP on the Series 5 NA engine, which is considerable.

Now considering the RX7 series 5 NA engine makes 160HP, which I assume is flywheel HP, a bump to 199 rear horse power, now if I recall correctly, most people use a 15% drive train loss? A stock engine at the wheels should make 136HP, someone correct me if I'm wrong on this, I don't specifics, I'm just going on what I think is correct. Now assuming this is correct that's a 63 HP gain, and this is in break in. According to my math that's a 68% increase in HP. This is also on stock port engine as well. Now considering I'm an series 4, I don't expect to make as much, but if I can get anywhere from 160-180 to the ground, that would be sweet.

then to really answer your question is simple.

you can't use the non turbo Rtek for the car once you switch it to turbo. you could maybe get the Rtek turbo version for the series of car your non turbo is and tune it for the vacuum maps only before the conversion but it will have even more limited usability.

major drawback to the Rtek is that it still requires a MAF, which hurts turbo performance more than n/a performance and limits the cieling of which you can accomplish with it.

Which is why I figure, why use Rtek and need 2 ECUs to do what I want to do, when I can use the PFC and be able to configure for both.

You are dreaming. It is a pleasant dream, but a dream nonetheless.

I mean seriously, you are basing your dreams on the power from a race car, then using a couple of rules of thumb to calculate your Hp? Oh yeah, then you make the mental shift from Series 5 back to series 4?

Pick your ECU, then skip the N/A power dream and go straight to the turbo. You will have a lot more fun and the car will be much more pleasant to drive.

Which ever way you go, make sure you post up here on daClub so we can, eh, watch.

Good luck!

yep and the powerFC still manages all the stock components for the republic of california.

I honestly don't think it's that much of a stretch to think that I could make that kind of power with said parts, although it could take more to pull it off. It's already been pretty much proven with the series 5 engine. However I may be stretching it too far considering which injectors I'm using, the guy that made 199 HP made it using T2 550 Injectors. Who know's what I'll make once I'm done, I just coming up with some base numbers based on what the guy got.

And yep I do plan on posting the results. Should be interesting.

Yep, and that's is something that is very appealing at this point in time.

with the power fc ,can you use your stock bac and throttle components, the water thermo sensor
so cold starts wont occur...im tired of removing all that stuff then the idle is lumpy and jumpy

given your constraints the Power FC would be a good choice if you can stomach the cost in relation to the resale value of your car.

The PFC's are quite pricey it seems. But I would say is your best option.. I'm assuming you can still run everything the stock ECU can? A/C, air pump, BAC, etc?

everything except for the CEL.

It's fine with me, I don't plan on ever selling the car considering it's my dream car to have the second generation RX7.

They're really not that pricey but to have everything you really should have on FC you will spend $1500 for an FC depending on what kind of deals you can find.

-- A new PFC is currently near $1000 due to exchange rates. You get the new hand controller though which is nice because it is much easier to see compared to the old one which looks like an 80s Game Boy screen

-- adapter kit is $315.00 . you can use this with AEM EMS as well

-- Power FC Datalogit box which lets you swap maps and connect to the computer with a laptop to log data is $300 new

That's within the ballpark of the competition.

everything else looks fine, but the stock main cat won't flow enough.

Unfortunately it's what I have to use, because there isn't anybody that will make me a cat in California that flows enough. Until then, I'll deal with it. Besides it's more for keeping noise down. This will be after all a highly tuned street car, at least that's how I look at it.

Your kidding right? There should be tons of shops out in CA that can help you out with a cat replacement using a 50-state legal performance cat, just make sure you use a mettalic core cat and not a ceramic..
Also currently the AEM is at $1300 ;)

If it isn't made for the car and isn't carb approved or whatever, then it's not legal to put on the car. Either that or I don't know of any shops willing to do that kind of technically illegal work. I know the price of the AEM, my preference is the PFC for reasons stated above.

Magnaflow cats come with CARB cetification. They even have a little card in the box to keep in the glove box.
REMOVING a cat is illegal, REPLACING it is not. Main cats are especially easy to replace with high-flow replacements that meet CARB, so check around.

They may be carb legal but here in california the cat also has to match car, meaning every car has cats that have serial numbers that match that car, legally those are the only ones you can use. Trust me, there is no way to legally get a bigger cat installed. However there is one thing that can be done to make this work, and I had forgotten about this, you can get away with modifying the cat to have wider pipes, which is what I plan on doing.

@Banzai-Racing: I was reading another guys post and it said the PFC doesn't work with the Auxiliary Ports and VDI in a 6-port, is this true? If so is there a work around to make them work?

You don't have VDI and your Aux ports are exhaust pressure accuated on an S4.

On the S5 if someone wanted to, they could keep the VDI and AUX ports working by configuring a couple of the FD sequential twins solenoid outputs.

Clearly I have missed that detail. Well that's good, I won't be losing the low end torque that I'd like to keep.

Just be careful of the exhaust system you put on, if there is not enough back pressure it will not open the Aux ports and you will lose top end power. However that has nothing to do with the ECU.

I'm quite aware about the exhaust system, overall the exhaust system will not exceed 2.5" while in non-turbo form. The header will be a Corksport header which will bolt onto the stock main cat. This setup shouldn't loose that much back pressure to activate the aux ports.

My $.02 since I run an S5 NA car and an RTek 2.1.

The RTek is great for what it is, which is a chipped stock motherboard controlling the stock sensors. For someone in Cali it would be excellent, because it doesn't delete any of the factory emissions equipment.

Downsides are that the fuel and ignition maps are pretty coarse... I can see this when datalogging on the dyno. It's not as sophisticated as modern aftermarket EFI systems. Another downside is tuning is pretty clunky (you use a Palm for it), map storage is clunky.

Realistically - for an NA car, they're not that sensitive to the tune so it is perfectly fine. I wouldn't spend the extra money on a MoTeC, Haltech, et al because you're just not going to see much extra power or driveability. Turbo car, different story.

Regarding the cats, I have a SDJ header, shortened, connected to a 3" ceramic pre-cat and a 3" metallic main cat (with air tube). Haven't had any issues, but I only have 2,000 miles on the car since doing all the work.

I'm not sure I'm liking those downsides, right now what I'm trying to do is modernize the fuel system, new FPR and modern injectors from an RX8, which honestly at this point, I don't think the Rtek 2.0 is going to cut it, I'm going to need finer control over fuel and timing maps.

Where do you get SDJ headers, do you have a picture of it? does it require a stock cat or does it come with other pieces?

I didn't make my point effectively. You have fine resolution for changes to the fuel and timing maps from the standpoint of being able to make very minute fueling changes or timing changes. But you only get them in 512 RPM steps. Again, for an NA, the changes you're making are extremely minor. You will be fine.

In all honesty, the stock FC injectors and FPR are fine for what you're doing. You're not doing yourself any favors swapping in other components.

If you want to make the most power with a mostly stock NA (you're keeping the stock intake manifolds, right?), focus on the header design and getting a really good tune on it.

Hmmmmm.... well we'll only know if I try. I don't know of anyone that is going about NA tuning in this way.

What is leading you to believe that the FPR and injectors are going to help you? What are you trying to accomplish by changing them?

Are the injectors even the same impedence?

Why I want to use RX8 Secondary Yellow Injectors:
1. Better atomization, benefits - possible improved fuel economy, increase stability, more accurate fuel metering.
2. Newer Parts - more reliable

Why I prefer not to use RX7 460cc injectors even when reconditioned:
1. Older technology - doesn't atomize fuel as well
2. Over 20 year old injectors, no matter how you look at them, even reconditioned are still over 20 years old, I'm not willing to trust them on a highly tuned NA or turbo car.

RX8 injectors while of a newer design will fit the RX7 fuel rails and harness as well, the miata guys that are turbo charging their cars have used RX7 460cc injectors which fit in the cars, plug and play, also used RX8 injectors which also plug and play. RX8 Injectors are also high impedance, so that's not a problem either.

Over all I'm looking to squeeze as much power as I can with better parts, not to mention I didn't spend that much on 4 RX8 secondary injectors anyways, I'm talking only 100 dollars for the set.

I am not sure what you think is newer technology in the injectors thats going to give you better atomization. As near as I can tell they are simply standard injectors. ALso try not to forget the RX8, even while it is a 13B more or less, is NOT the same as what is in your car. YOu do understand how the diffusers work? Those litle plastic gadgets under your injectors?
I am guessing your reading a lot of internet legend that has little to no bearing in the real world. 13B's do not suffer from fuel atomization problems even when carb'ed.
As to trying to "tune" the 13B, you should look into what people have done and try and understand why they have done it. Once you understand it then you can start making good decisions about what to or not to do.

I also get that the cost factor here is high. By the time you have the RX8 injectors cleaned and flow tested, you will have spent as much as you could have bought a brand new set of injectors from FIC or similar tailored to your needs. Sometimes we need to understand what a "false economy" is.

Yeah, you're barking up the wrong tree here with the injectors. If it's even an improvement, it'll be in the noise.

I completely agree. You are better off spending your money on a good exhaust, not trying to reinvent fuel injection. Even if you had bad injectors a rotary NA engine won't blow up or knock. It will just be slow. If you are concerned about your injectors definately get them cleaned or replaced.

I had a streetported S4 NA controlled by an RTEK 2.1. It worked great for what it was. I put 10000 miles on the car with the RTEK, 2000 of which were on racetracks. The car never had an RTEK related problem or issue and the tune was solid and consistent. FWIW I ran freshly cleaned stock 460cc injectors as primaries and new 550cc injectors as secondaries. I didn't need 550cc secondaries, but buying those injectors from Rock Auto was cheaper than having the originals cleaned.

Your car is an NA... you are going to pretty much tune it once and leave it until you do other mods to it. Adding added complexity is just going to give you headaches and make the car harder to tune.

The Rx-8 fuel injection system is far superior to anything offered on previous Mazda production rotaries. The fuel atomization is superior due to the newer injection design but especially due to the Jet Air Mixing system, which replaced the diffusers and air bleed design of the older engines.

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1293588636

This allowed improved idle fuel economy and lower HC emissions. It's stated very clearly in Mazda literature, including a couple SAE papers.

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1293588636


Just because the Rx-8 system is better doesn't mean it's worth swapping injectors though, and the jet air system cannot be retrofitted into older engines.

I am wondering, how is it adding complexity when the parts I am going to use are almost completely plug and play, the injectors I am planning to use are plug and play, I have stated that in a previous reply here. The PowerFC is also plug and play although requires a couple of things to make it work properly on the FC.

The RTEK I will grant that it is good for what it is, but it is still limited by 1980s EFI technology. The PowerFC how is a good deal more flexible in what it can do for me, as of now I currently am messing around with NA power, with it's flexibility it will allow me to be able to turbo charge the same engine without having to change the ECU, meaning less work, just more tuning.

The injectors I'm getting are already cleaned so basically all I need to do is get them flow tested.

I understand the jet air system can't be retrofitted, hell, I wouldn't even try, but since a set of RX8 injectors only set me back 100 dollars, a price I can easily live with, and that the drop right in, I think the cost factor isn't that high, considering the seller who is knowledgable to an extent in cleaning injectors has cleaned them already for me, so all I need now is flow testing. Anyways all this is happening when I modify the fuel system while the engine is out of the car.

You are right, replacing the injectors or getting your stock ones cleaned is a good idea, but you are really overthinking this for an NA car. If everything works properly on your car now, the RTEK is all you will ever need. Every dollar

If you had some problem that could not be diagnosed, I'd say sure just go standalone and rewire the whole thing.

most aftermarket EMS do injector mapping in 500RPM increments, so i wouldn't really call that a major drawback versus 512RPM increments.

"If you don't know where you're going, you'll probably never get there.."

With no real power/performance goals it is impossible to make an optimal selection in terms of engine management or components. A full standalone is a waste of money on an N/A 13b period. RX-8 injectors are similarly a frivolous expenditure, (especially considering they'll be useless when this turbo conversion occurs). You seem to be stuck in this mindset that "newer = better" it doesn't. If you want to make 400whp and boost 15+ psi on this turbo setup, then go ahead and get a standalone, but if you just want to run a stocker or a hybrid just get the Turbo Rtek , tune vacuum and be done.

Ironically the money wasted on RX8 injectors, flow testing , and an upgraded fuel system could make up a good bit of the difference between the Rtek and standalone X

I guess what I am getting from this now is you are not planning on having the injectors cleaned and balance. This is a fairly large mistake IMHO, as you cannot find any documentation that agrees as to what the injectors actually flow. I understand you only have $100 into them now, but for all you know they are completely unbalanced and could cause issues you will spend time chasing. Although in the end, do what youwant to do with your car. I think you are overthinking the progression of mods quite a bit and you should really do more research into what people are actually doing before you make some decisions.

I didn't quite say that, as of now, the injectors are clean, however I still intend to go send them in to get checked out.

I disagree. I have driven and helped tune cars with a full standalone EMS on an NA 13B, and the difference is night and day compared to the crappy stock EMS. Also, most of the popular RX-7 full standalone EMS products will run either an NA or turbocharged engine, so some people like to learn turning on an NA engine first because tuning errors are less likely to damage the engine.

There isn't much difference in power but the driveablility is hugely superior if tuned well. Unfortunately, most of the people on this forum do not know how to tune an engine and are unwilling to have a professonial tune it for them.

The FPR will allow for the elimination of the problematic stock pulsation damper, provide a stable fuel pressure required for accurate tuning, and allow for base fuel pressure changes to aid in tuning and optimal spray pattern. The aftermarket FPR will work well for an NA application, and even better for a turbocharged application.

I do agree with the RX-8 injectors being a waste of money. Given the NA>TII goal of the car, I think it would be better to get some nice Injector Dynamics injectors that could run the engine well in both NA and turbo configurations.