Rotary Aviation: Basic vs Master kit
07-23-04, 04:42 AM
#1
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rotary Aviation: Basic vs Master kit
The only things the Basic Kit leaves out are corner and side seals, oil pump chain, and the rotor oil seal set. Are these things worth an extra $389. I've heard that the side seals are usually reusable anyway. Also what all is included in their "rotor oil seal set". Thanks. -Josh
07-23-04, 06:24 AM
#2
Older than Dirt
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 1,448
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Everything thats included is listed at the bottom of the page on their site.
Your asking the worng question here. You should be asking what are the specs on my current components. In other words, what part is out of specs and needs to be replaced? They and only then you can shop for what you need. Unless, you choose to dump extra $$ into the engine for piece of mind.
Your asking the worng question here. You should be asking what are the specs on my current components. In other words, what part is out of specs and needs to be replaced? They and only then you can shop for what you need. Unless, you choose to dump extra $$ into the engine for piece of mind.
07-23-04, 08:54 AM
#3
Locust of the apocalypse
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Directly above the center of the earth (York, PA)
Posts: 2,553
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I just got the master kit. The rotor oil seal set includes 4 pairs of steel seal rings (you get the new rubber "o-rings" with the basic kit.) they are 55 bucks per pair from mazdatrix.. thats 220 bucks... You get the oil pump chain, 32 bucks. The side seals are 10.40 each.. thats 124.8 for both rotors. corner seals are 6 bux a piece thats 72 bux for a set. for a GRAND TOTAL OF 448 bucks.. so yeah, its a better price than buying these items seperately.
HOWEVER... my experience is that most of these "re-usable" items are only re-useable on an engine with less than 50K on it.
If my motor needs rebuild again before 25K miles, I'll re-use what i can.. but untill you've rebuilt one you have no clue of the PAIN IN THE *** it is to spec everthing out, and its all got to go back EXACTLY where it came from!!
My advice on rebuilding a high mileage motor is to ditch everything, get the master kit AND new rotor and stationary gear bearings. then all you have to really worry about is the eccentric shaft dimensions, the rotor running clearances and the rotor grooves (apex/ side seal clearance on the rotor.) Its MUCH less of a pain and, really, if its got over 100K on it, why the hell would you try and skimp out and re-use seals that have been beat to death for 15 years and take the chance of having to re-build the thing again in a couple of months because of re-using old parts??
So, i guess the question you have to ask yourself is.. is the extra money worth the time it takes to spec everything out, and your level of comfort with re-using the older components.
HOWEVER... my experience is that most of these "re-usable" items are only re-useable on an engine with less than 50K on it.
If my motor needs rebuild again before 25K miles, I'll re-use what i can.. but untill you've rebuilt one you have no clue of the PAIN IN THE *** it is to spec everthing out, and its all got to go back EXACTLY where it came from!!
My advice on rebuilding a high mileage motor is to ditch everything, get the master kit AND new rotor and stationary gear bearings. then all you have to really worry about is the eccentric shaft dimensions, the rotor running clearances and the rotor grooves (apex/ side seal clearance on the rotor.) Its MUCH less of a pain and, really, if its got over 100K on it, why the hell would you try and skimp out and re-use seals that have been beat to death for 15 years and take the chance of having to re-build the thing again in a couple of months because of re-using old parts??
So, i guess the question you have to ask yourself is.. is the extra money worth the time it takes to spec everything out, and your level of comfort with re-using the older components.
Last edited by YearsOfDecay; 07-23-04 at 08:57 AM.
07-23-04, 09:51 AM
#5
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
Also, be sure to read the thread in the Rotary Performance section about the troubles with the RA apex seals.
Read the entire thread. Manufacturer admits to poor production techniques on early batches of apex seals.
Hardly a case to dismiss RA out of hand. Given the amount of customer support, I would still purchase the RA seals.
07-23-04, 10:55 AM
#6
Lives on the Forum
YearsOfDecay pretty well summed it up, however I must add my own thoughts because it directly addresses your inquiry...
I had plenty of time to perform my rebuild, so in the interest of satisfying my "compulsive disorder/ perfectionist" personality, every little piece was evaluated when removed from the engine...She had 185,741 miles on her, still running, and I rebuilt her with the RA master kit, and new rotor housings...Points of interest-
1) OEM apex (3-piece) seals definetly shot- they would have "rolled out" (thanks to Mr Gadget for that terminology) in another 10K-20K, perhaps sooner.
2) OEM side seals had an average of only .03 mm wear- they could have gone another 100,000, at least. Definetly not a major wear item. In fact, I reused a couple after I got "carried away" while trimming the new side seals (learning curve, lol)
3) Absolutely nothing wrong with the corner seals (metal portion), I would have had no problems reusing them (with new rubber inserts) had I needed to. The springs did need to be replaced, however...
4) The metal portions of the oil control rings also looked damn good for the mileage- when compared to the new RA rings, the seal running "lip" obviously had more wear, but nonetheless could have performed its intended function in the engine for another 100K, I would guess...
5) The brand new RA (Mazda) oil pump chain had just .3" less play than the 186K one when installed. We obviously don't have to worry about our oil pump chains wearing very quickly!
Long story short, with the new housings, if the only "hard" parts changed were the apex seals (and corner/ side seal springs), I could have built up a reliable rebuild with just a complete "soft" parts replacement.
Hope that helps more than confuses you
I had plenty of time to perform my rebuild, so in the interest of satisfying my "compulsive disorder/ perfectionist" personality, every little piece was evaluated when removed from the engine...She had 185,741 miles on her, still running, and I rebuilt her with the RA master kit, and new rotor housings...Points of interest-
1) OEM apex (3-piece) seals definetly shot- they would have "rolled out" (thanks to Mr Gadget for that terminology) in another 10K-20K, perhaps sooner.
2) OEM side seals had an average of only .03 mm wear- they could have gone another 100,000, at least. Definetly not a major wear item. In fact, I reused a couple after I got "carried away" while trimming the new side seals (learning curve, lol)
3) Absolutely nothing wrong with the corner seals (metal portion), I would have had no problems reusing them (with new rubber inserts) had I needed to. The springs did need to be replaced, however...
4) The metal portions of the oil control rings also looked damn good for the mileage- when compared to the new RA rings, the seal running "lip" obviously had more wear, but nonetheless could have performed its intended function in the engine for another 100K, I would guess...
5) The brand new RA (Mazda) oil pump chain had just .3" less play than the 186K one when installed. We obviously don't have to worry about our oil pump chains wearing very quickly!
Long story short, with the new housings, if the only "hard" parts changed were the apex seals (and corner/ side seal springs), I could have built up a reliable rebuild with just a complete "soft" parts replacement.
Hope that helps more than confuses you
07-23-04, 11:23 AM
#7
I agree with WAYNE
for my first rebuild, I bought the basic kit from atkins. it had new apex, side, corner, soft O rings, etc. but not new oil control rings. so, I reused from the old one. and I didn't change the chain too.
apex seal is the only hard part that worn out the fastest. I will definitely consider reuse the others for my next rebuild. but make sure that you have good housing, and irons.
for my first rebuild, I bought the basic kit from atkins. it had new apex, side, corner, soft O rings, etc. but not new oil control rings. so, I reused from the old one. and I didn't change the chain too.
apex seal is the only hard part that worn out the fastest. I will definitely consider reuse the others for my next rebuild. but make sure that you have good housing, and irons.
Trending Topics
07-23-04, 02:47 PM
#8
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for adding all that up YearsOfDecay. I wondered if it was saving any money. I guess, since I will have lots of time, that I will just spec everything out first and go from there. Thanks for all the advice.
