Realistic power goals for N/A
06-09-15, 09:26 AM
#26
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this one is more realistic, remember its with driver, and cage and stuff. 316hp is about right too. it could be done on a hybrid stock turbo.
06-09-15, 10:36 AM
#27
if you want the reliability of N/a with turbo power. (and you had my exact skill set) you could do a seMi PP with short intake to stock TB and run megasquirt for 2000, in parts. not including labor welding/ fab/tuning. i'm hoping to break 300. i've not seen anyone run what i'm doing exactly so it's hard to say where my power will fall. but part of the budge is 8500 rpm limitation, for stock s5 N/a assembly/seals.
06-11-15, 07:23 PM
#30
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Thread Starter
I know bridgeports loveee to spool turbos so considering everything that's been said and the fact that a low down torquey turbo would be best for my application, would streetport or bridgeport be a better option? I know bridgeport could be overkill considering it's potential but since it loves to spool would it be a good option? Or would it be best to stick with a streetport to get a little more power but keep low end torque?
06-11-15, 08:41 PM
#31
I would stick to stock ports for simplicity and ease of replacement.
Turbo selection, manifold/ wastegate design and how big the turbo back exhaust are will have more positive effect on low rpm power than the port.
With the right set-up the bridgeport will provide more low end power than streetport, but you will have to go crazy on wastegate priority and sizing (like dual 60mm) to keep it from boost creeping on spool up with a small turbo and to keep egt/backpressure down on the top end.
The bridgeport overlap dumps more air/fuel into the exhaust manifold to spool the turbo and has better low rpm volumetric efficiency. We are talking about a bridgeport with stock 50ABDC closing timing here and stock exhaust port timing/size- not an NA race style high rpm bridgeport. You probably want to fill in the stock port and just leave the bridge for less port volume/better low end.
People will laugh at taking a 250hp bridgeport and putting a 250hp turbo on it, but the area under the curve will be much more hp since you could make 250hp from 3,000rpm to 8,000rpm instead of a linear curve of 75hp at 3,000rpm to 250hp at 8,000rpm.
Silly racing classes make you do silly things.
Turbo selection, manifold/ wastegate design and how big the turbo back exhaust are will have more positive effect on low rpm power than the port.
With the right set-up the bridgeport will provide more low end power than streetport, but you will have to go crazy on wastegate priority and sizing (like dual 60mm) to keep it from boost creeping on spool up with a small turbo and to keep egt/backpressure down on the top end.
The bridgeport overlap dumps more air/fuel into the exhaust manifold to spool the turbo and has better low rpm volumetric efficiency. We are talking about a bridgeport with stock 50ABDC closing timing here and stock exhaust port timing/size- not an NA race style high rpm bridgeport. You probably want to fill in the stock port and just leave the bridge for less port volume/better low end.
People will laugh at taking a 250hp bridgeport and putting a 250hp turbo on it, but the area under the curve will be much more hp since you could make 250hp from 3,000rpm to 8,000rpm instead of a linear curve of 75hp at 3,000rpm to 250hp at 8,000rpm.
Silly racing classes make you do silly things.
06-11-15, 10:24 PM
#32
I would stick to stock ports for simplicity and ease of replacement.
Turbo selection, manifold/ wastegate design and how big the turbo back exhaust are will have more positive effect on low rpm power than the port.
With the right set-up the bridgeport will provide more low end power than streetport, but you will have to go crazy on wastegate priority and sizing (like dual 60mm) to keep it from boost creeping on spool up with a small turbo and to keep egt/backpressure down on the top end.
The bridgeport overlap dumps more air/fuel into the exhaust manifold to spool the turbo and has better low rpm volumetric efficiency. We are talking about a bridgeport with stock 50ABDC closing timing here and stock exhaust port timing/size- not an NA race style high rpm bridgeport. You probably want to fill in the stock port and just leave the bridge for less port volume/better low end.
People will laugh at taking a 250hp bridgeport and putting a 250hp turbo on it, but the area under the curve will be much more hp since you could make 250hp from 3,000rpm to 8,000rpm instead of a linear curve of 75hp at 3,000rpm to 250hp at 8,000rpm.
Silly racing classes make you do silly things.
Turbo selection, manifold/ wastegate design and how big the turbo back exhaust are will have more positive effect on low rpm power than the port.
With the right set-up the bridgeport will provide more low end power than streetport, but you will have to go crazy on wastegate priority and sizing (like dual 60mm) to keep it from boost creeping on spool up with a small turbo and to keep egt/backpressure down on the top end.
The bridgeport overlap dumps more air/fuel into the exhaust manifold to spool the turbo and has better low rpm volumetric efficiency. We are talking about a bridgeport with stock 50ABDC closing timing here and stock exhaust port timing/size- not an NA race style high rpm bridgeport. You probably want to fill in the stock port and just leave the bridge for less port volume/better low end.
People will laugh at taking a 250hp bridgeport and putting a 250hp turbo on it, but the area under the curve will be much more hp since you could make 250hp from 3,000rpm to 8,000rpm instead of a linear curve of 75hp at 3,000rpm to 250hp at 8,000rpm.
Silly racing classes make you do silly things.
06-11-15, 11:57 PM
#34
So damn, didn't realize I was so close on my 420hp turbo.
I had big 2.0" runner exhaust manifold, T4 1.05AR exhaust housing and 70mm exhaust wheel lagging it up.
So I think the formula is simple.
Buy an EFR 7163 supercore and bore a S5 TII exhaust housing to fit the very slightly larger exhaust wheel. Go ahead and port the wastegates if it makes you feel good and put in a 20-25psi WG actuator on it.
Make sure you bore the exhaust housing deep so the rear runner scroll slot is right at the flat part of the turbine blades and the front runner scroll slot is at the rear back angled turbine blade section for correct mixed axial/radial flow on the mixed flow exhaust wheel.
With the stock exhaust housing on it you can find an old JIC Spec 90 3.5" turbo back exhaust for it that will bolt right up.
It should boost up to mid 20s psi between 2,500-3,000rpm and then fade to ~14psi on the top end making the full 375rwhp or so the compressor can do.
You can limit the peak hp by putting in an exhaust restriction at the end of the muffler.
____________
Make sure your intake manifold/IC flows well.
Again, a simple solution would to put a Holley style 4150 short runner manifold on it ($200), 4150 injector-less throttle body ($200), boost hat ($200) and just run 2x 2,000cc ID injectors in the primary injector bungs.
Yeah, you need an EFI system and race gas for this ofc.
I had big 2.0" runner exhaust manifold, T4 1.05AR exhaust housing and 70mm exhaust wheel lagging it up.
So I think the formula is simple.
Buy an EFR 7163 supercore and bore a S5 TII exhaust housing to fit the very slightly larger exhaust wheel. Go ahead and port the wastegates if it makes you feel good and put in a 20-25psi WG actuator on it.
Make sure you bore the exhaust housing deep so the rear runner scroll slot is right at the flat part of the turbine blades and the front runner scroll slot is at the rear back angled turbine blade section for correct mixed axial/radial flow on the mixed flow exhaust wheel.
With the stock exhaust housing on it you can find an old JIC Spec 90 3.5" turbo back exhaust for it that will bolt right up.
It should boost up to mid 20s psi between 2,500-3,000rpm and then fade to ~14psi on the top end making the full 375rwhp or so the compressor can do.
You can limit the peak hp by putting in an exhaust restriction at the end of the muffler.
____________
Make sure your intake manifold/IC flows well.
Again, a simple solution would to put a Holley style 4150 short runner manifold on it ($200), 4150 injector-less throttle body ($200), boost hat ($200) and just run 2x 2,000cc ID injectors in the primary injector bungs.
Yeah, you need an EFI system and race gas for this ofc.
06-12-15, 03:01 PM
#35
Full Member
Thread Starter
Make sure your intake manifold/IC flows well.
Again, a simple solution would to put a Holley style 4150 short runner manifold on it ($200), 4150 injector-less throttle body ($200), boost hat ($200) and just run 2x 2,000cc ID injectors in the primary injector bungs.
Yeah, you need an EFI system and race gas for this ofc.
Again, a simple solution would to put a Holley style 4150 short runner manifold on it ($200), 4150 injector-less throttle body ($200), boost hat ($200) and just run 2x 2,000cc ID injectors in the primary injector bungs.
Yeah, you need an EFI system and race gas for this ofc.
06-12-15, 04:58 PM
#36
It might not be necessary for a low power engine focusing on low rpm power.
You usually gain a lot of power ditching the stock intake manifold. This set up works well for bridgeport and they have manifolds for semi-port as well.
The fast rotary drag guys all use some variant of the 4150 throttlebody on a shorty carb style intake manifold- it flows.
E production racing allows any intake manifold and a carb or EFI but using only modified stock intake components. Everyone used carb because the shorty intake manifold makes so much more power.
Stock TII intake isn't great (but better than NA intake) you can switch just the FD upper intake manifold and gain ~20hp/tq under the curve on a 360hp TII.
https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generati...fc-uim-655708/
You usually gain a lot of power ditching the stock intake manifold. This set up works well for bridgeport and they have manifolds for semi-port as well.
The fast rotary drag guys all use some variant of the 4150 throttlebody on a shorty carb style intake manifold- it flows.
E production racing allows any intake manifold and a carb or EFI but using only modified stock intake components. Everyone used carb because the shorty intake manifold makes so much more power.
Stock TII intake isn't great (but better than NA intake) you can switch just the FD upper intake manifold and gain ~20hp/tq under the curve on a 360hp TII.
https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generati...fc-uim-655708/
06-12-15, 11:30 PM
#37
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Thread Starter
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel.../parts/112-588
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...=&pgGrp=search
But then what's this boost hat you're talking about?
And you said to run two massive injectors in the primaries, what about the secondaries? Don't those come on and take over under load?
06-13-15, 01:18 AM
#38
Yup, those are the cheapest/lowest quality of that style manifold, but with some work they are ok.
Lots of 4150 throttle bodies, some look nicer than others.
Boost hat/ carb hat
Airaid 100-525, Airaid Carbon Fiber Carburetor Hats | Airaid
If you have 2,000cc primaries and don't need more fuel than 4,000cc worth you can just leave off 2ndary injection.
Lots of 4150 throttle bodies, some look nicer than others.
Boost hat/ carb hat
Airaid 100-525, Airaid Carbon Fiber Carburetor Hats | Airaid
If you have 2,000cc primaries and don't need more fuel than 4,000cc worth you can just leave off 2ndary injection.
06-13-15, 09:34 AM
#39
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Yup, those are the cheapest/lowest quality of that style manifold, but with some work they are ok.
Lots of 4150 throttle bodies, some look nicer than others.
Boost hat/ carb hat
Airaid 100-525, Airaid Carbon Fiber Carburetor Hats | Airaid
If you have 2,000cc primaries and don't need more fuel than 4,000cc worth you can just leave off 2ndary injection.
Lots of 4150 throttle bodies, some look nicer than others.
Boost hat/ carb hat
Airaid 100-525, Airaid Carbon Fiber Carburetor Hats | Airaid
If you have 2,000cc primaries and don't need more fuel than 4,000cc worth you can just leave off 2ndary injection.
06-13-15, 11:07 AM
#40
Information Regurgitator
Yup, those are the cheapest/lowest quality of that style manifold, but with some work they are ok.
Lots of 4150 throttle bodies, some look nicer than others.
Boost hat/ carb hat
Airaid 100-525, Airaid Carbon Fiber Carburetor Hats | Airaid
If you have 2,000cc primaries and don't need more fuel than 4,000cc worth you can just leave off 2ndary injection.
Lots of 4150 throttle bodies, some look nicer than others.
Boost hat/ carb hat
Airaid 100-525, Airaid Carbon Fiber Carburetor Hats | Airaid
If you have 2,000cc primaries and don't need more fuel than 4,000cc worth you can just leave off 2ndary injection.
TURBO PLENUM HAT - Pro-Jay RPM Warfare
06-13-15, 12:35 PM
#41
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Thread Starter
I'm thinking we'll start with a streetport so we can start to get this thing running and see how it goes. If we need more we can always go back in a year or so and bridgeport it.
Do you think it would be a good idea to run a hybrid turbo or just go for something better? Gt35's seem to be popular
Do you think it would be a good idea to run a hybrid turbo or just go for something better? Gt35's seem to be popular
06-13-15, 03:55 PM
#42
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06-14-15, 03:30 PM
#43
I'm thinking we'll start with a streetport so we can start to get this thing running and see how it goes. If we need more we can always go back in a year or so and bridgeport it.
Do you think it would be a good idea to run a hybrid turbo or just go for something better? Gt35's seem to be popular
That sounds like a good plan on the porting.
Do just a clean up port then that doesn't take anything off the opening side or longer duration. Then when you bridge you can get the most out of the bridge without getting new irons.
I say build the chassis up and see what the final power output needs to be before getting a turbo. Run it NA or stock S5 turbo the 1st season and work out the inevitable bugs on everything.
For turbo selection, first thing you have to decide is will your race car run race gas (recommend!).
If stuck on pump gas you will have to run low boost and a larger, laggier turbo to make the power you want. On race gas you can run a smaller, better spooling turbo on higher boost for the same peak power with more torque.
GT35 can mean a lot of turbos.
What you would probably want for under 400rwhp would be a GTX3576R or a T04S. The GTX uses a billet compressor wheel in a ported shroud housing and GT turbine. The T04S is the same thing with regular wheel and T04 exhaust wheel. They are both the old 60-1 7 blade compressors that match rotary so well for 300-400rwhp. This compressor moves a lot of air at low boost which suits a rotary well.
My old 60-1 w/ P-trim exhaust in ported stock exhaust housing/manifold with 60mm EWG did 340rhwp at 10psi creeping to 11psi and 380rwhp on 14psi.
Of course an EFR turbo will spool a lot better than the old GT stuff and you have a company making small runner manifolds for the rotary (again better spool) if you don't want to make your own. They also have the advantage of IWG which means less noise and cost.
Do you think it would be a good idea to run a hybrid turbo or just go for something better? Gt35's seem to be popular
That sounds like a good plan on the porting.
Do just a clean up port then that doesn't take anything off the opening side or longer duration. Then when you bridge you can get the most out of the bridge without getting new irons.
I say build the chassis up and see what the final power output needs to be before getting a turbo. Run it NA or stock S5 turbo the 1st season and work out the inevitable bugs on everything.
For turbo selection, first thing you have to decide is will your race car run race gas (recommend!).
If stuck on pump gas you will have to run low boost and a larger, laggier turbo to make the power you want. On race gas you can run a smaller, better spooling turbo on higher boost for the same peak power with more torque.
GT35 can mean a lot of turbos.
What you would probably want for under 400rwhp would be a GTX3576R or a T04S. The GTX uses a billet compressor wheel in a ported shroud housing and GT turbine. The T04S is the same thing with regular wheel and T04 exhaust wheel. They are both the old 60-1 7 blade compressors that match rotary so well for 300-400rwhp. This compressor moves a lot of air at low boost which suits a rotary well.
My old 60-1 w/ P-trim exhaust in ported stock exhaust housing/manifold with 60mm EWG did 340rhwp at 10psi creeping to 11psi and 380rwhp on 14psi.
Of course an EFR turbo will spool a lot better than the old GT stuff and you have a company making small runner manifolds for the rotary (again better spool) if you don't want to make your own. They also have the advantage of IWG which means less noise and cost.
06-15-15, 03:44 PM
#44
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Thread Starter
I know it's been asked over snd over but how do you guys figure out what injectors you need to run? Like if we were to go bridgeport or semi pp with a 4barrel throttle body setup and everything how would you calculate that?
06-15-15, 05:09 PM
#45
You can use something like this-
Calculations
In reality each engine will want different fueling, but that gives you a base line. Just go overboard on injector and pump just in case.
Calculations
In reality each engine will want different fueling, but that gives you a base line. Just go overboard on injector and pump just in case.
06-15-15, 05:22 PM
#46
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You can use something like this-
Calculations
In reality each engine will want different fueling, but that gives you a base line. Just go overboard on injector and pump just in case.
Calculations
In reality each engine will want different fueling, but that gives you a base line. Just go overboard on injector and pump just in case.
06-16-15, 12:28 PM
#48
I have RB RevTII 3" turbo back and a JIC Spec 90 3.5" turbo back.
The 3.5" turbo back weighs ~45lbs less and on my stock hybrid spooled 500rpms sooner (so much better low end power).
For a long time I used the 3.5" downpipe and midpipe with the RB RevTII 3" Y-pipe and mufflers. Spool was as good as with full 3.5" exhaust and it was only 30lbs heavier than with the 3.5" single rear section.
I was doing this because its quieter as well.
One problem I had is the heavy RB rear section is hard to control and always ***** into your tires etc when racing. I ended up using steel U-clamps to keep the heavy exhaust off the inside of the tires. Then you have the problem of the muffler hangers breaking off from the weight of the exhaust wanging around- gotta reinforce those.
The RB RevTII is just not by any stretch a race car part.
Do you have a dB limit where you will be racing?
The 3.5" turbo back weighs ~45lbs less and on my stock hybrid spooled 500rpms sooner (so much better low end power).
For a long time I used the 3.5" downpipe and midpipe with the RB RevTII 3" Y-pipe and mufflers. Spool was as good as with full 3.5" exhaust and it was only 30lbs heavier than with the 3.5" single rear section.
I was doing this because its quieter as well.
One problem I had is the heavy RB rear section is hard to control and always ***** into your tires etc when racing. I ended up using steel U-clamps to keep the heavy exhaust off the inside of the tires. Then you have the problem of the muffler hangers breaking off from the weight of the exhaust wanging around- gotta reinforce those.
The RB RevTII is just not by any stretch a race car part.
Do you have a dB limit where you will be racing?
06-16-15, 12:56 PM
#49
Full Member
Thread Starter
I have RB RevTII 3" turbo back and a JIC Spec 90 3.5" turbo back.
The 3.5" turbo back weighs ~45lbs less and on my stock hybrid spooled 500rpms sooner (so much better low end power).
For a long time I used the 3.5" downpipe and midpipe with the RB RevTII 3" Y-pipe and mufflers. Spool was as good as with full 3.5" exhaust and it was only 30lbs heavier than with the 3.5" single rear section.
I was doing this because its quieter as well.
One problem I had is the heavy RB rear section is hard to control and always ***** into your tires etc when racing. I ended up using steel U-clamps to keep the heavy exhaust off the inside of the tires. Then you have the problem of the muffler hangers breaking off from the weight of the exhaust wanging around- gotta reinforce those.
The RB RevTII is just not by any stretch a race car part.
Do you have a dB limit where you will be racing?
The 3.5" turbo back weighs ~45lbs less and on my stock hybrid spooled 500rpms sooner (so much better low end power).
For a long time I used the 3.5" downpipe and midpipe with the RB RevTII 3" Y-pipe and mufflers. Spool was as good as with full 3.5" exhaust and it was only 30lbs heavier than with the 3.5" single rear section.
I was doing this because its quieter as well.
One problem I had is the heavy RB rear section is hard to control and always ***** into your tires etc when racing. I ended up using steel U-clamps to keep the heavy exhaust off the inside of the tires. Then you have the problem of the muffler hangers breaking off from the weight of the exhaust wanging around- gotta reinforce those.
The RB RevTII is just not by any stretch a race car part.
Do you have a dB limit where you will be racing?
06-16-15, 01:06 PM
#50
Is this turbo plenum hat from Pro-jay the same thing other than the inlet pipe size and being aluminum?
TURBO PLENUM HAT - Pro-Jay RPM Warfare
TURBO PLENUM HAT - Pro-Jay RPM Warfare
http://www.pro-jay.com/SUPER-DUTY-TU...-PJ-PH3000.htm
That one is made of THICK aluminum, and by thick I mean 1/4 inch cast aluminum. If used with their TB, you get to clamp it down to the TB with two studs/nuts, instead of one.
Last edited by KNONFS; 06-16-15 at 01:12 PM.
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