WAYNE88N/A

It's your car- do what you will with her

ViperDude152

ok ok. i seriously dont get this. why put water in your engine to clean it out? what is this going to do? clean the inside for that moment so that when you start up your car it gets dirty again. I didnt think ideas like this were possible. Dont do this. jezzz...

2 gallons of ATF is a **** LOAD! like Rex Ryder said... a small little bottle IF THAT is fine. do you think that there is a huge empty space in the engine where the rotors are.....supposed to be? Also. dont run water after using ATF. why? cause it wont do CRAP. the water will bead right over the ATF, PLUS the extreme heat in the engine will burn the ATF away in a mater of minutes if not seconds.

if you are THAT worried about how dirty your internals are... do the following

1.Switch to 2 stroke and eliminate the OMP so you dnot cause carbon. 2 stroke burns CLEAN and can actually clean up your internals over time

2.Buy a SAFC and control the fuel maps so that you dont run as rich to cause carbon

3.Coudl also advance the timing to help with rich AFR conditions.

few.....

ViperDude152

Some engines have more vacuum then others depending on if they eliminated vacuum lines or the position of their throttle plates and position of their bypass idle air screw but either way this is a great way to possibly water lock your engine. this is a stupid idea if i ever saw one. WATER DOESNT COMPRESS!!! I know there isnt much water going in but like i said if there is more vacuum then tehre shoudl be it could hurt the engine ifi t pulls to much water.

inflatablepets

This is Non FC related, but I used carb cleaner in my old truck once...The red tube shot off the end of the can and went into the engine. It's wither melted in the itake manifold or burned out through the engine.

patman

iTrader: (3)

it is almost impossible to water lock a rotary. the ports are open all the time, no valves. and anyway, this procedure is to be performed when the car is fully warm, so its not water, its steam.

pat

Adam

HAHAHAHAHA sorry, this isnt a Piston car man, Where did you hear about the water locking of a rotary? I never heard of this. So i hope you have somthing On this rather than just Puting BS in here, BTW its small amount of water being sucked into the intake with help from the vac lines, its not getting poured in all at once. this is a small amount at a time. water wont compress but the amount of water in there at anytime is not enough to hurt anything

xtremeskier97

Wow...I guess some people just dont know how to read guys! THIS WILL NOT HURT A ROTARY ENGINE!!!!! GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS!!!

AND NOWHERE DID I EVER SAY I WAS GOING TO PUT 2 GALLONS OF ATF IN MY ENGINE!!!! OMG!!!! PEOPLE!!!! FREAKIN READ!!!!! I SAID 2 GALLONS OF WATER!!!!!!!!!

Geez....people are just illiterate I guess.

Mint87RX7

ya no joke, all these people say they have done it and had good results and then someone always thinks if you get water in your engine the world will stop spinning and we'll all go flying through space and smash into pluto

jhammons01

What happens if the water temp is cool and the rotor is hot and they meet?? cracking? Warping? Lets play physics!!!

First off your subjecting water into an atmsphere of vacuum. The water will expand....all matter bows to the laws of physics water is no exception. The water expanding will have a Cooling effect. The water will not turn to steam for some time, only after it is compressed during the compression stroke will it go the other way and get hot. If you pull too much of a vacuum the water will expand and solidify....turn to a solid....ice is what we call it. I am not saying that you will have ice cubes going into your rotor housings. The water vapor will go into the engine recently expanded (cooled) may hit the wrong thing and crack/warp/whatever.

xtremeskier97

Well...just to make you happy...Ill use warm water.

Mint87RX7

does anybody in here use a gas tank heater? im going to go get one so when its 10 degrees out i dont floor it and crack a rotor

jhammons01

Does your fuel poor in on its own or is it 'under pressure' Once again the fuel has to live with the laws of physics. Heats under pressure. The small squirt however immediatly cools again as it comes out of the injector. But I am sure you not sucking 2 gallons of fuel into your motor whilst standing still at idle ( or even revving to 5k) in a matter of 5-20 minutes

Mint87RX7

well all the water did to my engine was blow all the carbon out the exhaust and raise my compression. if you think its going to warp your housings then i wouldnt suggest it

Adam

so im iceing up my rotors? and im freazing the motor? cause i dont know WTF you just said... i think your laws of physics is alittle off, Not sure how long you have been studying, But last time i checked the water turned to steam right way, No ice cubes in my exhaust! but what do i know, i dont know to much on physics, Just on what i see

Mint87RX7

and honestly how much do you actualy think that -10psi will cool the water? 2 degrees?

jhammons01

Vacuum is measured in Torr......not PSI. Unless you have put a Thermocouple in the intake you have no way of knowing how much vacuum is there. Just for fun I'll get vacuum guage and hook into my lower intake manifold. I bet it reaches 10E-2.

I clearly stated that you not turning anything into Ice. I just used that part of it for you to grasp the concept a little better. C'mon admit it, this is a risky way to obtain a goal. If you have a high mileage motor.....take it apart and clean it with Chem-dip and put it together with new springs and seals........b4 you drop an apex seal.

As far as how long I've been studying. I graduated in '88 with a B.S in Physics. I work everyday with JPL, Boeing, Northrop-Grumman, Raytheon, The Areospace Corp. I advise and design for the physics departments at UCLA, USC, Cal Tech, UCI, and UC Riverside. The PhDs ask me when it comes to vacuum. I have built space simulation chambers big enough to fit your house in that pulls vacuum to 10E-10. I am an expert in single stage rotary vane pumps, Scroll pumps, Twin Screw pumps, Roots Blower pumps. Turbo molecular pumps, Cryogenic pumps, Getter pumps Titatnium Ion pumps, I can expain what a mean free molecular path is. 12 kelvin is not a kid on AIM

You should listen and not talk so much. I do. I knew nothing about RX7s last summer. These guys on this board have a lot of skill and knowledge. When I can get them to give there advice I "shut up" and listen. I learn from them, rather than question them. Not all of them know everything (and they;ll all admit that) but most have a specialty or two. They speak up when they know something........and I listen

To rap it up I did not say your process for cleaning will not work. I don't think it will and I gave my reasons. Not to mention, I just rebuild my motor and the carbon is in so many cracks and crevesis you would have to run a swimming pool through it at 9k rpms to put a dent in that carbon. I had to soak my rotors in Chem-dip all night and still there was carbon that had to be scrapped by hand. Don't take my word for it.....ask the guru's

Mint87RX7

If we never questioned, we would never figure out whether or not this kind of stuff works. im sure everyone knows its not the best thing you can do to your engine, thats why i dont do it everytime i get done driving. but to do it every 10,000 miles is going to keep a lot of carbon from forming. its not going to scrape every bit of it out but it will blow some of it out(I saw puffs of black smoke while i was doing it) i think the benefit outweighs the minor amount of stress your puting on the engine for 5 minutes.

patman

iTrader: (3)

vacuum in a rotary is about 20 inHg. 20 inHg is not near enough to cool water that much that quick, especially when the manifold is also at least 50* hotter than the water i'd guess off the top of my head without working it out that it will stay about the same temp, maybe warm up a little.

another thing you are missing is that the lower the pressure the lower the boiling point, so you will get steam at a much lower temperature than 100C.

P=rhoRT bitches

pat

jhammons01

Patman, how long until it should it cool??? Maybe leave it in the fridge for an hour??? NO. When the pressure is relieved the molecules slow down and the cooling is instant. Test this for yourself, go over and get your air hose. blow some air out of it unto your hand, its cool isn't it??? Even on a hot day air coming out the hose is cool. Now go take your hand and place it on the compressor head. Its hot isn't it??? Not purely from friction either. Inside your own sentence is the key and you missed it even though you said it.

"another thing you are missing is that the lower the pressure the lower the boiling point, so you will get steam at a much lower temperature than 100C."

So from your own sentence the steam is hot???? like, steam we all invision when we use this word?? I am not so sure. The water vaporized as the pressure was relieved. So could the steam be cool??? maybe Cold??

I have a Turbo pump, Its used as a Hg leak detector. We can hook that system up to a chamber. We can take a small cup of water and place it in the chamber. WE can start the vucuum pump and within about 30 seconds we can watch the water boil and then turn to ice. Did the temp drop inside the chamber....no, its ambient. The water freezes at 70° F How can that be?? I think somewhere I heard somebody say that the boiling point drops as the pressure drops. Can we vent the chamber and get the ice out, yes. It is still cold....ice(solid). It will take a while at atmosphere (actually about 15PSI) to return to liquid (Solid, liquid, Vapor, heard that somewhere).

The properties of gasses change under different atmospheric pressures, I know it is hard to understand vacuum, your not unlike 90% of the Engineers I encounter daily I have been working in vacuum systems since 1996 and it does take a while to "think" in terms of vacuum and it's properties.

P=rhoRT bitches (I am not sure what that means, I just copied it from Patman)

That's all for now class I need to go write a proposal for an RGA system for Boeing.

xtremeskier97

Never the less....it has been shown to increase compression and it DOES NOT harm your engine.


THAT.....is the bottom line.

mudbone

I got taught this trick in tech school. It is not recomended to use more than a liter in a piston engine. I used to have a Vw and I did this every other oil change and after a while I noticed my oil came out cleaner and cleaner with ever change. Just my 2 cents

Amur_

Also, have you ever seen a piston/chamber after a head gasket failure? It's clean as a whistle in there. How could that be? It was burning water and coolant along with the a/f charge... hmm...

Mint87RX7

I think after reading all that, im going to go put some MORE water in my engine... Ive never known somebody tore an engine down after using this process, good info

patman

iTrader: (3)

P=rhoRT is a revision of the ideal gas law. the bitches part was a joke.

Ok, here we go. as water expands, it cools. we all know that. this is why water injection works to stop detonation. Now... if we put in 90* water at 30"Hg, it will be 30* at 10 "Hg.

OH ****, OUR ROTORS ARE COATED WITH ICE.

NO. they arent. for one thing.. the intake manifold is at around 150* or so, which will warm the water somewhat.. probably enough to thaw it anyway. but then there is this other cool thing that happens in an engine: GAS IS BURNING IN THERE. Now, gasoline burns at approximately 2200*C. that is very very hot. hot enough to burn off a little bit of water? you bet your ***.

Here's another point...all the temperature changes that happen with water, also happen to the intake air/ fuel mixture. air transfers 1/4 the heat that water does. however, the volume of air that is flowing through the engine is waaay more than 4 times the volume of water. so if you think water would cause the rotors too cool fast and crack, you better be worried about the air, too.

in case you are curious, here is the flowrate (Q) of water you might expect from a setup like this:

P=.5rhoV^2
20inHg=1414psf=.5(1.94)V^2
V^2=1458
V=38.2 ft/s

Q=V*A
if we use a 1/4" vac hose, then A= .000341 ft

thus Q, the volumetric flowrate = 38.2*00341=.013 ft^3/s= .097 gallon/ second

a rotary takes in about 550 cfm IIRC, so that would be 69 gallon/second.

in other words, not much water.

that is only if both ends of the hose are at the same height. if the bottle is lower than the intake, it will slow the flow down dramatically.


end of lecture.

pat

ps someone tell me the specific heat of steel, and the energy content of gasoline, and i'll figure out how much ti will cool the rotor. lol

Amur_