Which R-12 replacement? ES-12, Industrial 12A, Duracool, Freeze 12?
07-18-09, 08:03 AM
#26
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
I'm giving you very good information here. EVERYthing that I am covering here has been extensively stated by me in other posts on this forum. It might do you good to search my posts. If you **** me off you will get to go back to looking at your gauges and asking why your A/C doesn't work. Then you can get your answers from other people that don't have cool A/C either. Kinda like getting fueling advice from other guys with blown engines.
1. Because it's good practice-not exactly the same but kinda like changing the filter when you change the oil.
2. Because if the dryer on your car was made before a certain time frame, the bag holding the desiccant is soluble in the Ester and/or PAG oils. If someone else has put any of that crap in your system with the old bag, the bag will eventually dissolve. The beads end up everywhere in your system-then you are f--d.
3. Because if you and other incompetent A/C dabblers have been charging on this system, the desiccant in your dryer is likely saturated and your system has partial pressures of non-condensable gasses and water vapor. This is probably why your gauges don't agree with your temps.
4. Because if any or all of the above is true, the dryer is cheaper than almost anything else you can do to the system.
5. Because only a moron would try to service a system with unknown history, unknown oil, unknown refrigerant(s), odd pressures, not cooling and choose to not change the drier.
6. Consider it a reliability mod.
1. Because it's good practice-not exactly the same but kinda like changing the filter when you change the oil.
2. Because if the dryer on your car was made before a certain time frame, the bag holding the desiccant is soluble in the Ester and/or PAG oils. If someone else has put any of that crap in your system with the old bag, the bag will eventually dissolve. The beads end up everywhere in your system-then you are f--d.
3. Because if you and other incompetent A/C dabblers have been charging on this system, the desiccant in your dryer is likely saturated and your system has partial pressures of non-condensable gasses and water vapor. This is probably why your gauges don't agree with your temps.
4. Because if any or all of the above is true, the dryer is cheaper than almost anything else you can do to the system.
5. Because only a moron would try to service a system with unknown history, unknown oil, unknown refrigerant(s), odd pressures, not cooling and choose to not change the drier.
6. Consider it a reliability mod.
Yes, I see. That makes total sense, because unlike the rest of us, you live in a world where Fedex/UPS/DHS does not move packages from every country in the world to the USA and vice versa.
Prejudice describes something I have against ignoramuses and socialists. Everyone else gets respect earned. You are on the clock.
I am not prejudiced against HC refrigerants. I am experienced with them. If you want to doubt, then by all means feel free to ignore the rest of my information as well. BTW, this week when the temp was 104* in Dallas with humidity, my center vent idle temp was 34*f.
What was your temp?
I am not prejudiced against HC refrigerants. I am experienced with them. If you want to doubt, then by all means feel free to ignore the rest of my information as well. BTW, this week when the temp was 104* in Dallas with humidity, my center vent idle temp was 34*f.
What was your temp?
So why should I or anyone else 'pick a poison'? This is about cold, functional, reliable A/C. I know what works and what doesn't work. HC's won't get you there, especially in hot humid climate like yours. R12 or Freeze12 will get you there. I am not some ******* giving out 'prejudiced opinions'. I am an ******* that can help you.
I haven't touched my A/C or adjusted my refrigerant in my 90 Vert in quite a while. So my $13-$25/can R12 is feeling pretty cheap right now. In the meantime, I have helped lots of people with their A/C.
The guys in Arizona and Cali have had great results with Freeze12. If I couldn't get R12, I would use Freeze12.
The guys in Arizona and Cali have had great results with Freeze12. If I couldn't get R12, I would use Freeze12.
Also, Envirosafe supposedly has a $3M insurance policy but their website has no mention of it... very questionable.
07-18-09, 08:04 AM
#27
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
An explosion of that size in the engine bay isn't enough to kill someone in the car.
07-18-09, 09:54 AM
#29
You DO realize that the refrigerant is in the cabin of the car with you right? And that Evaporators leak? And that propane is heavier than air, thus tending to collect rather than dissipate-because of this Propane is NEVER used on ocean going boats.
Here is why-a University of South Wales public demonstration of the 'safety' of HC refrigerants. This dumb-*** Phd has been 'researching' HC refrigerants for 15 years. Most of the bullshit printed on the Envirosafe website and all the other HC companies is reprinted from his 'research' papers. He was fired and retired after this demo.
Go to 4:10 on the video to see the 'future' of HC refrigerants.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjtowzVzl_4
I could also introduce you to Louis Ott who burned his 928, but have I made my point?
Bring this up one more time and the whole board will know you are OFFICIALLY an idiot.
07-18-09, 03:03 PM
#30
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
The main concern is leakage in the cabin.
You DO realize that the refrigerant is in the cabin of the car with you right? And that Evaporators leak? And that propane is heavier than air, thus tending to collect rather than dissipate-because of this Propane is NEVER used on ocean going boats.
You DO realize that the refrigerant is in the cabin of the car with you right? And that Evaporators leak? And that propane is heavier than air, thus tending to collect rather than dissipate-because of this Propane is NEVER used on ocean going boats.
Here is why-a University of South Wales public demonstration of the 'safety' of HC refrigerants. This dumb-*** Phd has been 'researching' HC refrigerants for 15 years. Most of the bullshit printed on the Envirosafe website and all the other HC companies is reprinted from his 'research' papers. He was fired and retired after this demo.
Go to 4:10 on the video to see the 'future' of HC refrigerants.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjtowzVzl_4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjtowzVzl_4
I could also introduce you to Louis Ott who burned his 928, but have I made my point?
Bring this up one more time and the whole board will know you are OFFICIALLY an idiot.
Bring this up one more time and the whole board will know you are OFFICIALLY an idiot.
Maybe not, but if you T-Bone me and shove that cruize-missile-envirosafe-nose into my car, you better hope I die. Why? Because you have just assaulted me with a deadly weapon. I have a reasonable, legal right to defend myself with deadly force- and/or a BMF'ing Attorney with a 12" d**k and a very bad attitude. My attorney will make you wish that I hadn't missed with my .45.
07-18-09, 10:38 PM
#32
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
I didn't say I wasn't going to use it. From the get-go I was probably going to use Freeze 12.
But you didn't explain how something that's 80% HFC134A works better than HFC134A.
And it sounds to me like you've never actually used HC refrigerants before, so how do you know it doesn't cool well?
But you didn't explain how something that's 80% HFC134A works better than HFC134A.
And it sounds to me like you've never actually used HC refrigerants before, so how do you know it doesn't cool well?
07-19-09, 04:18 PM
#34
^ if you have the r134 adapter on ur lines, think you just use whatever filler hose and attach it to the can of freeze 12.
I just ordered soem freeze 12 on ebay.. Ill get a new dryer while im at it, and pick up a a/c vacum.
jackhild59 would you suggest an a/c flush? i tried a r134a retrofit and it was crap so i need to get all that crap out.
I just ordered soem freeze 12 on ebay.. Ill get a new dryer while im at it, and pick up a a/c vacum.
jackhild59 would you suggest an a/c flush? i tried a r134a retrofit and it was crap so i need to get all that crap out.
07-19-09, 08:48 PM
#35
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Use this:
http://store.lenzdist.com/product.php?xProd=700
The freeze 12 has a different type of can that a R134a tap will not fit.
I went to the NAPA store and bought the R134a retrofit fitting kit and used all of the hoses etc as though I was putting in R134a.
Or you can buy a fit kit from Johnsens that has the correct fittings.
Kind of gangster, but I don;t plan on sell ing this car or ever taking it to a commercial A/C shop.
Take FBO's advice either use R12 or Freeze 12. I took his advice on the Freeze 12 and did not regret it. we just had 105 degrees here in Houston and it worked good. if I had a parallel flow condenser it would be just like a 2009 vintage A/C unit.
good luck and do your self a favor an listen to the experts
http://store.lenzdist.com/product.php?xProd=700
The freeze 12 has a different type of can that a R134a tap will not fit.
I went to the NAPA store and bought the R134a retrofit fitting kit and used all of the hoses etc as though I was putting in R134a.
Or you can buy a fit kit from Johnsens that has the correct fittings.
Kind of gangster, but I don;t plan on sell ing this car or ever taking it to a commercial A/C shop.
Take FBO's advice either use R12 or Freeze 12. I took his advice on the Freeze 12 and did not regret it. we just had 105 degrees here in Houston and it worked good. if I had a parallel flow condenser it would be just like a 2009 vintage A/C unit.
good luck and do your self a favor an listen to the experts
07-22-09, 05:02 PM
#37
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
Got my Freeze 12, side tap, and oil charge in the mail, but sh*t on a stick, Advance sold me the wrong drier... apparently I needed the "dealer installed' drier with the bigger fittings and the mounting bracket. It's going to take six days to get here.
On another note, the plastic caps I bought for my service ports F*CKING MELTED (!?!?!) and I had to replace my service port converters... apparently they didn't design them with anywhere near enough heat resistance, or I got some bad ones. For a second I thought I had gotten The Black Death, but it was just melted plastic... my shrader valves were just fine though.
On another note, the plastic caps I bought for my service ports F*CKING MELTED (!?!?!) and I had to replace my service port converters... apparently they didn't design them with anywhere near enough heat resistance, or I got some bad ones. For a second I thought I had gotten The Black Death, but it was just melted plastic... my shrader valves were just fine though.
07-23-09, 08:27 PM
#38
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That sucks about the drier. That is exactly the same think that happenned to me. The fittings are different on the "Dealer Installed" model vs the "Factory model" The mounting bracket is also different. I went to a crap load of trouble to build a new bracket for my new dryer only to find out that the fittings were too small on the factory installed drier. I sent it back to Black Dragon and they gave me credit for it so that turned out good.
from now on I only buy A/C parts at the local auto parts store. I have no idea what else will bite me in the a$$ on this A/C system. it also sucks waiting 5 days for the UPS to show up.
I wish i would have taken pictures of both of the driers to post. I am sure this has happenned to a bunch of people and needs to have a sticky so that people are aware of this issue.
from now on I only buy A/C parts at the local auto parts store. I have no idea what else will bite me in the a$$ on this A/C system. it also sucks waiting 5 days for the UPS to show up.
I wish i would have taken pictures of both of the driers to post. I am sure this has happenned to a bunch of people and needs to have a sticky so that people are aware of this issue.
08-01-09, 06:41 PM
#40
That sucks about the drier. That is exactly the same think that happenned to me. The fittings are different on the "Dealer Installed" model vs the "Factory model" The mounting bracket is also different.
I wish i would have taken pictures of both of the driers to post. I am sure this has happenned to a bunch of people and needs to have a sticky so that people are aware of this issue.
I wish i would have taken pictures of both of the driers to post. I am sure this has happenned to a bunch of people and needs to have a sticky so that people are aware of this issue.
Don't mail order A/C parts unless you know what you are ordering-
BTW, any of you Texas boys that want some A/C help-I can provide it. If there were a local club that did tech days, I would do a Tech day on A/C.
08-01-09, 09:01 PM
#41
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
The drier I got was a 4Seasons 33487. It was a perfect fit, although the tard who rebuilt it forgot to mask off the sight glass so I had to scrape paint off of it. It was $37 and had to be special ordered since the one they list for the FC was $67... for what is the exact same part.
I evacuated and charged with 26 oz. of Freeze 12 today. It cools better than it did with the original R134A retrofit, and I can stay comfortable even with the fan at low speeds...I used to have to run it on max to feel cool. It'll be put through it's paces on Tuesday to see how it handles noon heat.
But it's definitely not blowing 37 degrees in 105 degree weather... although it's respectable. I'm just glad it's actually 'cold' (esp at night at 70 MPH) again instead of just being 'cool.' My low-side pipes were COLD when I was charging them.
I evacuated and charged with 26 oz. of Freeze 12 today. It cools better than it did with the original R134A retrofit, and I can stay comfortable even with the fan at low speeds...I used to have to run it on max to feel cool. It'll be put through it's paces on Tuesday to see how it handles noon heat.
But it's definitely not blowing 37 degrees in 105 degree weather... although it's respectable. I'm just glad it's actually 'cold' (esp at night at 70 MPH) again instead of just being 'cool.' My low-side pipes were COLD when I was charging them.
08-01-09, 10:41 PM
#42
You are probably slightly overcharged
The drier I got was a 4Seasons 33487. It was a perfect fit, although the tard who rebuilt it forgot to mask off the sight glass so I had to scrape paint off of it. It was $37 and had to be special ordered since the one they list for the FC was $67... for what is the exact same part.
I evacuated and charged with 26 oz. of Freeze 12 today. It cools better than it did with the original R134A retrofit, and I can stay comfortable even with the fan at low speeds...I used to have to run it on max to feel cool. It'll be put through it's paces on Tuesday to see how it handles noon heat.
But it's definitely not blowing 37 degrees in 105 degree weather... although it's respectable. I'm just glad it's actually 'cold' (esp at night at 70 MPH) again instead of just being 'cool.' My low-side pipes were COLD when I was charging them.
I evacuated and charged with 26 oz. of Freeze 12 today. It cools better than it did with the original R134A retrofit, and I can stay comfortable even with the fan at low speeds...I used to have to run it on max to feel cool. It'll be put through it's paces on Tuesday to see how it handles noon heat.
But it's definitely not blowing 37 degrees in 105 degree weather... although it's respectable. I'm just glad it's actually 'cold' (esp at night at 70 MPH) again instead of just being 'cool.' My low-side pipes were COLD when I was charging them.
*Exactly* 26 oz? (too much detail) Did you weigh it in? Because Freeze12 comes in 12 oz cans. I bet that if you cracked that 3rd can and scraped the tard shield off the sightglass- you will have peeked into the pretty bubbles and overcharged. After all, if Freeze 12 is good, then a little more is even better, right? It's real easy to overcharge that way.
That's why I recommend to the inexperienced to charge in 2-12 oz cans and be done.
Glad you are cool, but disappointed you aren't driving that cruise missile with the propane warhead.
08-02-09, 12:26 PM
#43
I am not telling where! You guys will use it all up! 
Have you guys any experience with Freeze12 at your shop? I know most pro shops hate to deal with alternatives, just curious.
90* is not hot. Don't fool yourself. That R134a car will not perform in our conditions. You will have excessive head pressures with the stock FC condenser. High pressure cutout switches (EPA Mandate for conversions BTW) will help, but they just reduce the capacity in a different way-OR- you have to adjust the charge downward. Here is an example of our temps this time of the year in Dallas: on Monday morning at 5:15 am it was 86*, headed for 105*. Good thing I was headed for Columbus where it was 76* for a high.
Have you guys any experience with Freeze12 at your shop? I know most pro shops hate to deal with alternatives, just curious.
90* is not hot. Don't fool yourself. That R134a car will not perform in our conditions. You will have excessive head pressures with the stock FC condenser. High pressure cutout switches (EPA Mandate for conversions BTW) will help, but they just reduce the capacity in a different way-OR- you have to adjust the charge downward. Here is an example of our temps this time of the year in Dallas: on Monday morning at 5:15 am it was 86*, headed for 105*. Good thing I was headed for Columbus where it was 76* for a high.
08-02-09, 04:09 PM
#45
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
The tard is the guy who scraped off the sightglass. The factory paints the sightglass on purpose, to keep you from looking at the pretty bubbles. You don't charge 134a or Freeze12 by sightglass. Only R12 is charged by sightglass, and really no tech with any skills uses a sightglass: for the same reason that no one can charge to the 'right pressure'.
*Exactly* 26 oz? (too much detail) Did you weigh it in? Because Freeze12 comes in 12 oz cans. I bet that if you cracked that 3rd can and scraped the tard shield off the sightglass- you will have peeked into the pretty bubbles and overcharged. After all, if Freeze 12 is good, then a little more is even better, right? It's real easy to overcharge that way.
That's why I recommend to the inexperienced to charge in 2-12 oz cans and be done.
Glad you are cool, but disappointed you aren't driving that cruise missile with the propane warhead.
*Exactly* 26 oz? (too much detail) Did you weigh it in? Because Freeze12 comes in 12 oz cans. I bet that if you cracked that 3rd can and scraped the tard shield off the sightglass- you will have peeked into the pretty bubbles and overcharged. After all, if Freeze 12 is good, then a little more is even better, right? It's real easy to overcharge that way.
That's why I recommend to the inexperienced to charge in 2-12 oz cans and be done.
Glad you are cool, but disappointed you aren't driving that cruise missile with the propane warhead.
I charged two 12-oz cans and a 2-oz from an oil-charge can without charging the oil.
08-02-09, 04:20 PM
#46
Cans really don't do me much good at the shop. We'd be looking for a 30# keg, but I would have used cans for my personal vehicles. The company doesn't want to use alternatives unapproved by the vehicle manufacturers in case there is a problem. And in a normal year 105 with 100 percent humidity is not unusual. We've had a cool summer so far but this is not the first car I've retrofitted and I've never had a problem keeping cool. I just drove my FC to 100+ weather in Boise and it worked fine there.
I'm glad you have the One FC that works well with 134a. It may be that you have everything in perfect order, a rarity.
I always love it when northern dwellers try to lay claim to hot weather and/or high humidity. Typical statements include claims of 100% humidity during the day. This cannot happen. I don't care what you think you heard on the local weather channel.
For grins, take a look at your night temps for the last month-note that they tend to track within one or two degrees your dew point temps. During the day time, the dew point temp. always has very small increase compared to the daytime increase. If you spend a little time with a psycrometric chart you will understand/accept that 100% RH can only happen at or near the low temperature during the 24hr period, not in the heat of the day.
Here is one for you to study:http://www.truetex.com/psychrometric_chart.gif
A pretty accurate assessment of the heat/humidity is the overnight low temp (which tracks the dew point).
08-02-09, 06:42 PM
#49
Can I put sweat shirt on, plus skiing pants + jeans + boots instead ?
I am still waiting for Amazon to ship me my damn Robinair Vacuum pump ... why Amazon ? ... cuz I can retur ... I mean err. if Im not happy with the product I can get a refund ... u know like after I "try" it ...... LOL !
I am still waiting for Amazon to ship me my damn Robinair Vacuum pump ... why Amazon ? ... cuz I can retur ... I mean err. if Im not happy with the product I can get a refund ... u know like after I "try" it ...... LOL !
08-02-09, 06:45 PM
#50
The drier I got was a 4Seasons 33487. It was a perfect fit, although the tard who rebuilt it forgot to mask off the sight glass so I had to scrape paint off of it. It was $37 and had to be special ordered since the one they list for the FC was $67... for what is the exact same part.
I evacuated and charged with 26 oz. of Freeze 12 today. It cools better than it did with the original R134A retrofit, and I can stay comfortable even with the fan at low speeds...I used to have to run it on max to feel cool. It'll be put through it's paces on Tuesday to see how it handles noon heat.
But it's definitely not blowing 37 degrees in 105 degree weather... although it's respectable. I'm just glad it's actually 'cold' (esp at night at 70 MPH) again instead of just being 'cool.' My low-side pipes were COLD when I was charging them.
I evacuated and charged with 26 oz. of Freeze 12 today. It cools better than it did with the original R134A retrofit, and I can stay comfortable even with the fan at low speeds...I used to have to run it on max to feel cool. It'll be put through it's paces on Tuesday to see how it handles noon heat.
But it's definitely not blowing 37 degrees in 105 degree weather... although it's respectable. I'm just glad it's actually 'cold' (esp at night at 70 MPH) again instead of just being 'cool.' My low-side pipes were COLD when I was charging them.
It has no sight glass, but who cares? I got my gauges here and stuff. just waiting for vacuum pump. MMS wants 70 bux for it ...
