Which R-12 replacement? ES-12, Industrial 12A, Duracool, Freeze 12?
07-16-09, 05:36 PM
#1
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
Which R-12 replacement? ES-12, Industrial 12A, Duracool, Freeze 12?
My A/C with R134A isn't cutting it in this heat... time to try a R-12 substitute.
But which one is best? Which one cools the most?
And which ones can you buy from local people?
I need to know how much to buy for two cars worth.
And yes, I know that some of them have butane/propane in them, but gasoline is more explosive and there's more of it in your car, sooo....
But which one is best? Which one cools the most?
And which ones can you buy from local people?
I need to know how much to buy for two cars worth.
And yes, I know that some of them have butane/propane in them, but gasoline is more explosive and there's more of it in your car, sooo....
07-16-09, 06:32 PM
#3
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
...why would I switch from R-12 to R-134A? Maybe because R-12 has been completely phased out and costs $65+ a pound and can't be bought without a license, and because it's bad for the enivornment?
My A/C isn't cool enough because it's freaking hot outside and 134 doesn't cool as well as 12...
My A/C isn't cool enough because it's freaking hot outside and 134 doesn't cool as well as 12...
07-16-09, 07:32 PM
#4
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I tried the Freeze 12 and it works fine. I got 35 degrees at the center vents. This is my first 7 so I am not sure how good the A/C is supposed to work. I had a completely open system when I got the car and I did not want to get raped by the local A/C for R12.
I don;t think the stock A/C in this car is very good even with R12 in it.
Search for Freeze 12 on Ebay. I got it from a place in Texas somewhere.
I don;t think the stock A/C in this car is very good even with R12 in it.
Search for Freeze 12 on Ebay. I got it from a place in Texas somewhere.
07-16-09, 07:38 PM
#5
Seriously, this has been covered 3 times in the last 3 or 4 months.
Do a search about the AC and read the threads, very knowledgeable people have weighed in and the answers are already posted. I would stay r-12 and just make sure it will hold the charge... and your factory AC system is pretty efficient for cooling.
Just my opinion.
Do a search about the AC and read the threads, very knowledgeable people have weighed in and the answers are already posted. I would stay r-12 and just make sure it will hold the charge... and your factory AC system is pretty efficient for cooling.
Just my opinion.
07-17-09, 12:57 PM
#6
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
Seriously, this has been covered 3 times in the last 3 or 4 months.
Do a search about the AC and read the threads, very knowledgeable people have weighed in and the answers are already posted. I would stay r-12 and just make sure it will hold the charge... and your factory AC system is pretty efficient for cooling.
Just my opinion.
Do a search about the AC and read the threads, very knowledgeable people have weighed in and the answers are already posted. I would stay r-12 and just make sure it will hold the charge... and your factory AC system is pretty efficient for cooling.
Just my opinion.
Also, I'm adding Hot Shot to the list of candidates.
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07-17-09, 02:13 PM
#8
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
My system never had R-12 in it as long as it's been in my car... I retrofitted mine with an empty junkyard system (my original system was cut out by a previous owner...literally), evacuated and sucked it after the install, and charged it with R-134A. It worked OK in most any weather except for summer as long as I was moving... but I've gotten to the point where I believe I'd be better off using an R-12 substitute (ie, R-12A, Freeze 12, etc) because of the superior cooling, because it's not comfortable on longer trips during hot summer days (esp at noon).
I actually have two R-12 cars (my car and one of my family's vans) that aren't performing very well with R-134A at the moment... although I think in the case of the van, there may have been a leak.
I actually have two R-12 cars (my car and one of my family's vans) that aren't performing very well with R-134A at the moment... although I think in the case of the van, there may have been a leak.
07-17-09, 04:33 PM
#9
When you reinstalled the system, did you replace the receiver/drier (round can in front of radiator)? If you didn't, it may have absorbed enough moisture to be a restriction and prevent it from cooling properly.
I replaced all the o-rings in my system, cleaned the external fins of the condenser, replaced the receiver/drier, added the retrofit adapters, vacuumed the system for 45 mins, and charged it with "Arctic Freeze" 134a. The output on even a hot day was cold enough that your hands would get too cold if they were high on the wheel
Also, poor cooling at a stand still is typically related to airflow, most often the fan clutch or electric fans are the problem on the cars that I see at my job.
Your best bet would be to hook up a set of gauges to the system and see what is happening.
Hope this helps,
Vince
I replaced all the o-rings in my system, cleaned the external fins of the condenser, replaced the receiver/drier, added the retrofit adapters, vacuumed the system for 45 mins, and charged it with "Arctic Freeze" 134a. The output on even a hot day was cold enough that your hands would get too cold if they were high on the wheel
Also, poor cooling at a stand still is typically related to airflow, most often the fan clutch or electric fans are the problem on the cars that I see at my job.
Your best bet would be to hook up a set of gauges to the system and see what is happening.
Hope this helps,
Vince
07-17-09, 05:04 PM
#10
I was able to buy freeze 12 at my local auto parts store, just go to one and ask, but not some big box store that is going to ask you the make and model of your car, a smaller store that has a guy named Joe or Al working there who knows everything off the top of his head.
That aside, all new cars dont have R12, I think if you were to really go through and properly convert your system over and use components that are meant for each other you would cool fine with 134a.
If your car is a turbo you may want to give thought to wrapping your dp and your midpipe, I might just wrap my whole stinkin exaust over the winter, the heat coming off that thing is BRUTAL. Also check if your factory heat shields are in place or consider putting heat wrap on the floorboards and trans tunnel at the exaust area.
That aside, all new cars dont have R12, I think if you were to really go through and properly convert your system over and use components that are meant for each other you would cool fine with 134a.
If your car is a turbo you may want to give thought to wrapping your dp and your midpipe, I might just wrap my whole stinkin exaust over the winter, the heat coming off that thing is BRUTAL. Also check if your factory heat shields are in place or consider putting heat wrap on the floorboards and trans tunnel at the exaust area.
07-17-09, 06:40 PM
#11
Just the fact, Jack
Ok, time for me to weigh in on this.
People! A/C that only cools well while driving down the freeway on cool days IS NOT OK! That Sucks! The stock A/C in your FC works great when it is in good repair full of R12 or Freeze12.
Rob is right-there is nothing wrong with R134a in a system designed for R134a, however-
As I have stated MANY times on this forum: R134a sucks as a retrofit in our FC's. The FC system does not have condenser capacity for R134a!
You can charge it 'fully' and the system will work great in mild weather. When that 'mild weather charge' runs into hot weather it will ruin your compressor/burst your rubber hoses/magnify any leaks. 'Undercharge' the system to avoid these problems and you will lose significant capacity. Your A/C will now perform poorly as the OP (and many others) have stated-poor performance in heat-soaked car cool down, high temperatures in traffic, poor idle cooling, poor stop and start cooling.
Do you want a really good replacement for R12 in our FC's that will work nearly as well as R12? Use Freeze 12. Period. Install a new dryer, vacuum to 29.9"+ for thirty minutes, check for leaks. Then charge 2-12 oz can's of Freeze 12.
Done.
And I call weak bullshit on the R12 is being phased out/$100/lb nonsense.
Yes, you must have a license. I have one. I am buying R12 this season for $25 can-R134a is around $7. Last season I paid $13 for R12 while 134a was around $10
Third-world Nations are still free to use as much R12 as they want-they have an exemption under the Montreal Protocol (similar to their exemption under the cap and trade carbon credit nonsense). China makes all the R12 they want to spew, as does Mexico, Brazil, Venezuela, Indonesia etc. Western world totally stopped producing R12 systems in 1995. 110 nations were not required to even reduce R12 until 2005 and then just by 50%. There is no enforcement agency or action taken against nations that choose to ignore the treaty. Like China, India, Mexico etc.
You want to argue with me about how safe hydrocarbons are in your car? Don't bother. My response is Who cares if they don't cool worth a damn?
Most everyone who claims otherwise is in Canada or they 'Know a guy...' The problem with Hydrocarbons is capacity. It works when you don't need it. See R134A above.
And by the way, you also don't pump your gasoline through the fragile condenser of your car inches from the front bumper fascia, well within the crumple zone. Engineers spend lots of time designing a fuel system to be safe and protected in a crash. No such consideration has been given to your A/C system.
So don't compare your Fuel system to your Propane refrigeration system, you sound like an idiot when you do that.
People! A/C that only cools well while driving down the freeway on cool days IS NOT OK! That Sucks! The stock A/C in your FC works great when it is in good repair full of R12 or Freeze12.
Rob is right-there is nothing wrong with R134a in a system designed for R134a, however-
As I have stated MANY times on this forum: R134a sucks as a retrofit in our FC's. The FC system does not have condenser capacity for R134a!
You can charge it 'fully' and the system will work great in mild weather. When that 'mild weather charge' runs into hot weather it will ruin your compressor/burst your rubber hoses/magnify any leaks. 'Undercharge' the system to avoid these problems and you will lose significant capacity. Your A/C will now perform poorly as the OP (and many others) have stated-poor performance in heat-soaked car cool down, high temperatures in traffic, poor idle cooling, poor stop and start cooling.
Do you want a really good replacement for R12 in our FC's that will work nearly as well as R12? Use Freeze 12. Period. Install a new dryer, vacuum to 29.9"+ for thirty minutes, check for leaks. Then charge 2-12 oz can's of Freeze 12.
Done.
And I call weak bullshit on the R12 is being phased out/$100/lb nonsense.
Yes, you must have a license. I have one. I am buying R12 this season for $25 can-R134a is around $7. Last season I paid $13 for R12 while 134a was around $10
Third-world Nations are still free to use as much R12 as they want-they have an exemption under the Montreal Protocol (similar to their exemption under the cap and trade carbon credit nonsense). China makes all the R12 they want to spew, as does Mexico, Brazil, Venezuela, Indonesia etc. Western world totally stopped producing R12 systems in 1995. 110 nations were not required to even reduce R12 until 2005 and then just by 50%. There is no enforcement agency or action taken against nations that choose to ignore the treaty. Like China, India, Mexico etc.
You want to argue with me about how safe hydrocarbons are in your car? Don't bother. My response is Who cares if they don't cool worth a damn?
Most everyone who claims otherwise is in Canada or they 'Know a guy...' The problem with Hydrocarbons is capacity. It works when you don't need it. See R134A above.
And by the way, you also don't pump your gasoline through the fragile condenser of your car inches from the front bumper fascia, well within the crumple zone. Engineers spend lots of time designing a fuel system to be safe and protected in a crash. No such consideration has been given to your A/C system.
So don't compare your Fuel system to your Propane refrigeration system, you sound like an idiot when you do that.
07-17-09, 06:56 PM
#12
still havent have time to check my ac yet. busy working to get it back to the road
i know my ac has a leak somewhere so the question is, is it ok for me to just take all the stuff apart like drier and condensorand all the hose off so i can clean them or replace it with new parts ?
i know my ac has a leak somewhere so the question is, is it ok for me to just take all the stuff apart like drier and condensorand all the hose off so i can clean them or replace it with new parts ?
07-17-09, 07:31 PM
#13
still havent have time to check my ac yet. busy working to get it back to the road
i know my ac has a leak somewhere so the question is, is it ok for me to just take all the stuff apart like drier and condensorand all the hose off so i can clean them or replace it with new parts ?
i know my ac has a leak somewhere so the question is, is it ok for me to just take all the stuff apart like drier and condensorand all the hose off so i can clean them or replace it with new parts ?
If you must leave it open and drive, completely seal each open component. I use ductape. Lots of ductape.
07-17-09, 08:23 PM
#14
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
Ok, time for me to weigh in on this.
People! A/C that only cools well while driving down the freeway on cool days IS NOT OK! That Sucks! The stock A/C in your FC works great when it is in good repair full of R12 or Freeze12.
Rob is right-there is nothing wrong with R134a in a system designed for R134a, however-
As I have stated MANY times on this forum: R134a sucks as a retrofit in our FC's. The FC system does not have condenser capacity for R134a!
You can charge it 'fully' and the system will work great in mild weather. When that 'mild weather charge' runs into hot weather it will ruin your compressor/burst your rubber hoses/magnify any leaks. 'Undercharge' the system to avoid these problems and you will lose significant capacity. Your A/C will now perform poorly as the OP (and many others) have stated-poor performance in heat-soaked car cool down, high temperatures in traffic, poor idle cooling, poor stop and start cooling.
Do you want a really good replacement for R12 in our FC's that will work nearly as well as R12? Use Freeze 12. Period. Install a new dryer, vacuum to 29.9"+ for thirty minutes, check for leaks. Then charge 2-12 oz can's of Freeze 12.
Done.
People! A/C that only cools well while driving down the freeway on cool days IS NOT OK! That Sucks! The stock A/C in your FC works great when it is in good repair full of R12 or Freeze12.
Rob is right-there is nothing wrong with R134a in a system designed for R134a, however-
As I have stated MANY times on this forum: R134a sucks as a retrofit in our FC's. The FC system does not have condenser capacity for R134a!
You can charge it 'fully' and the system will work great in mild weather. When that 'mild weather charge' runs into hot weather it will ruin your compressor/burst your rubber hoses/magnify any leaks. 'Undercharge' the system to avoid these problems and you will lose significant capacity. Your A/C will now perform poorly as the OP (and many others) have stated-poor performance in heat-soaked car cool down, high temperatures in traffic, poor idle cooling, poor stop and start cooling.
Do you want a really good replacement for R12 in our FC's that will work nearly as well as R12? Use Freeze 12. Period. Install a new dryer, vacuum to 29.9"+ for thirty minutes, check for leaks. Then charge 2-12 oz can's of Freeze 12.
Done.
And I call weak bullshit on the R12 is being phased out/$100/lb nonsense.
Yes, you must have a license. I have one. I am buying R12 this season for $25 can-R134a is around $7. Last season I paid $13 for R12 while 134a was around $10
Third-world Nations are still free to use as much R12 as they want-they have an exemption under the Montreal Protocol (similar to their exemption under the cap and trade carbon credit nonsense). China makes all the R12 they want to spew, as does Mexico, Brazil, Venezuela, Indonesia etc. Western world totally stopped producing R12 systems in 1995. 110 nations were not required to even reduce R12 until 2005 and then just by 50%. There is no enforcement agency or action taken against nations that choose to ignore the treaty. Like China, India, Mexico etc.
You want to argue with me about how safe hydrocarbons are in your car? Don't bother. My response is Who cares if they don't cool worth a damn?
Most everyone who claims otherwise is in Canada or they 'Know a guy...' The problem with Hydrocarbons is capacity. It works when you don't need it. See R134A above.
And by the way, you also don't pump your gasoline through the fragile condenser of your car inches from the front bumper fascia, well within the crumple zone. Engineers spend lots of time designing a fuel system to be safe and protected in a crash. No such consideration has been given to your A/C system.
So don't compare your Fuel system to your Propane refrigeration system, you sound like an idiot when you do that.
And I'm not driving my car from the engine bay, so I don't think it'll be a problem in a crash. At least not as much as the crash itself.
Also, 18 gallons of gasoline is still more dangerous than 28 ounces of butane, given a worst-case scenario.
FWIW, R-12 exposed to an open flame releases a toxic gas...so pick your poison.
07-17-09, 08:28 PM
#15
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Thread Starter
When you reinstalled the system, did you replace the receiver/drier (round can in front of radiator)? If you didn't, it may have absorbed enough moisture to be a restriction and prevent it from cooling properly.
I replaced all the o-rings in my system, cleaned the external fins of the condenser, replaced the receiver/drier, added the retrofit adapters, vacuumed the system for 45 mins, and charged it with "Arctic Freeze" 134a. The output on even a hot day was cold enough that your hands would get too cold if they were high on the wheel
Also, poor cooling at a stand still is typically related to airflow, most often the fan clutch or electric fans are the problem on the cars that I see at my job.
Your best bet would be to hook up a set of gauges to the system and see what is happening.
Hope this helps,
Vince
I replaced all the o-rings in my system, cleaned the external fins of the condenser, replaced the receiver/drier, added the retrofit adapters, vacuumed the system for 45 mins, and charged it with "Arctic Freeze" 134a. The output on even a hot day was cold enough that your hands would get too cold if they were high on the wheel
Also, poor cooling at a stand still is typically related to airflow, most often the fan clutch or electric fans are the problem on the cars that I see at my job.
Your best bet would be to hook up a set of gauges to the system and see what is happening.
Hope this helps,
Vince
I am using Arctic Freeze, for the record.
07-17-09, 08:29 PM
#16
+1 to most of what jackhild59 says. I have retrofitted my fc and even in 90+ weather and extreme humidity my a/c works fine. I would love to know where you can get r12 for $25 a can. At my shop we ran out in May and couldn't find any in Omaha. We've had to retro fit a couple cars since our 27 store company is completely out.
07-17-09, 10:35 PM
#17
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You guys should be afraid of the new products you can just buy in the parts stores... the "A/C top up" or what ever you guys call it down there. Its mostly propane/butane. If you have a leak, its bad news bears.
07-17-09, 11:12 PM
#20
You should be fine, but leaving it closed is always going to be better. You just don't know what has been put in your system. The 'new' PAG and Ester oils both react with water and water vapor. The old mineral oils would absorb water. You can remove absorbed water vapor from mineral oil with a vacuum or a dessicant, but you cannot remove the reacted w.v. from the PAG/Esters. When this happens, the PAG/Esters lose lubricity and form a sludge.
07-17-09, 11:14 PM
#21
so if u dunno the history of your AC system. its better to replace it.
ITs cheap anyway, get one from Autozone for 20 bux (I got mine already, never had time to install it yet)
I don't live in Mexico/China/India.
Is this from your experience or hearsay/prejudice?
Never said they were safe, I said the danger isn't terribly significant compared to what happens when you get a fuel leak.
Fuel tank is specially designed have a lot of anti-leak/explosion measures. MUCH better than your A/C Condenser
And I'm not driving my car from the engine bay, so I don't think it'll be a problem in a crash. At least not as much as the crash itself.
Also, 18 gallons of gasoline is still more dangerous than 28 ounces of butane, given a worst-case scenario.
FWIW, R-12 exposed to an open flame releases a toxic gas...so pick your poison.
07-17-09, 11:18 PM
#22
You should be fine, but leaving it closed is always going to be better. You just don't know what has been put in your system. The 'new' PAG and Ester oils both react with water and water vapor. The old mineral oils would absorb water. You can remove absorbed water vapor from mineral oil with a vacuum or a dessicant, but you cannot remove the reacted w.v. from the PAG/Esters. When this happens, the PAG/Esters lose lubricity and form a sludge.
so does that mean, if one day I decided to do it, I should just hurry up and finish everything ?
Also, I thought I can just pump some PAG/Ester(stock use mineral oil right? I forgot what it was) oil into it, turn the compressor with my hand for a couple of times, and it will be good ?
07-17-09, 11:25 PM
#23
+1 to most of what jackhild59 says. I have retrofitted my fc and even in 90+ weather and extreme humidity my a/c works fine. I would love to know where you can get r12 for $25 a can. At my shop we ran out in May and couldn't find any in Omaha. We've had to retro fit a couple cars since our 27 store company is completely out.
Have you guys any experience with Freeze12 at your shop? I know most pro shops hate to deal with alternatives, just curious.
90* is not hot. Don't fool yourself. That R134a car will not perform in our conditions. You will have excessive head pressures with the stock FC condenser. High pressure cutout switches (EPA Mandate for conversions BTW) will help, but they just reduce the capacity in a different way-OR- you have to adjust the charge downward. Here is an example of our temps this time of the year in Dallas: on Monday morning at 5:15 am it was 86*, headed for 105*. Good thing I was headed for Columbus where it was 76* for a high.
07-17-09, 11:32 PM
#24
You can flush a compressor that way. Dump, add oil, rotate by hand 10-15 turns, dump. Repeat 2 more times.
You *could* end up with a nasty coating congealed on the inside of your hoses, pipes etc. If I had a system open for too long, I would flush it. Mineral spirits and a blow gun on an air compressor. Flush each part seperately. Blow it out very very well. Use an extra 30 min. on the vacuum pump to remove all the mineral spirits residue. And you cannot flush through the Expansion valve, the condenser or the evaporator. This is why you should try to keep them all sealed.
07-18-09, 12:08 AM
#25
I'm giving you very good information here. EVERYthing that I am covering here has been extensively stated by me in other posts on this forum. It might do you good to search my posts. If you **** me off you will get to go back to looking at your gauges and asking why your A/C doesn't work. Then you can get your answers from other people that don't have cool A/C either. Kinda like getting fueling advice from other guys with blown engines.
1. Because it's good practice-not exactly the same but kinda like changing the filter when you change the oil.
2. Because if the dryer on your car was made before a certain time frame, the bag holding the desiccant is soluble in the Ester and/or PAG oils. If someone else has put any of that crap in your system with the old bag, the bag will eventually dissolve. The beads end up everywhere in your system-then you are f--d.
3. Because if you and other incompetent A/C dabblers have been charging on this system, the desiccant in your dryer is likely saturated and your system has partial pressures of non-condensable gasses and water vapor. This is probably why your gauges don't agree with your temps.
4. Because if any or all of the above is true, the dryer is cheaper than almost anything else you can do to the system.
5. Because only a moron would try to service a system with unknown history, unknown oil, unknown refrigerant(s), odd pressures, not cooling and choose to not change the drier.
6. Consider it a reliability mod.
Yes, I see. That makes total sense, because unlike the rest of us, you live in a world where Fedex/UPS/DHS does not move packages from every country in the world to the USA and vice versa.
Prejudice describes something I have against ignoramuses and socialists. Everyone else gets respect earned. You are on the clock.
I am not prejudiced against HC refrigerants. I am experienced with them. If you want to doubt, then by all means feel free to ignore the rest of my information as well. BTW, this week when the temp was 104* in Dallas with humidity, my center vent idle temp was 34*f.
What was your temp?
Maybe you missed this the first time around? ^
See what I'm talking about?^ Geez, this is almost embarrassing.
*sigh*
So why should I or anyone else 'pick a poison'? This is about cold, functional, reliable A/C. I know what works and what doesn't work. HC's won't get you there, especially in hot humid climate like yours. R12 or Freeze12 will get you there. I am not some ******* giving out 'prejudiced opinions'. I am an ******* that can help you.
I haven't touched my A/C or adjusted my refrigerant in my 90 Vert in quite a while. So my $13-$25/can R12 is feeling pretty cheap right now. In the meantime, I have helped lots of people with their A/C.
The guys in Arizona and Cali have had great results with Freeze12. If I couldn't get R12, I would use Freeze12.
2. Because if the dryer on your car was made before a certain time frame, the bag holding the desiccant is soluble in the Ester and/or PAG oils. If someone else has put any of that crap in your system with the old bag, the bag will eventually dissolve. The beads end up everywhere in your system-then you are f--d.
3. Because if you and other incompetent A/C dabblers have been charging on this system, the desiccant in your dryer is likely saturated and your system has partial pressures of non-condensable gasses and water vapor. This is probably why your gauges don't agree with your temps.
4. Because if any or all of the above is true, the dryer is cheaper than almost anything else you can do to the system.
5. Because only a moron would try to service a system with unknown history, unknown oil, unknown refrigerant(s), odd pressures, not cooling and choose to not change the drier.
6. Consider it a reliability mod.
Yes, I see. That makes total sense, because unlike the rest of us, you live in a world where Fedex/UPS/DHS does not move packages from every country in the world to the USA and vice versa.
Prejudice describes something I have against ignoramuses and socialists. Everyone else gets respect earned. You are on the clock.
I am not prejudiced against HC refrigerants. I am experienced with them. If you want to doubt, then by all means feel free to ignore the rest of my information as well. BTW, this week when the temp was 104* in Dallas with humidity, my center vent idle temp was 34*f.
What was your temp?
*sigh*
So why should I or anyone else 'pick a poison'? This is about cold, functional, reliable A/C. I know what works and what doesn't work. HC's won't get you there, especially in hot humid climate like yours. R12 or Freeze12 will get you there. I am not some ******* giving out 'prejudiced opinions'. I am an ******* that can help you.
I haven't touched my A/C or adjusted my refrigerant in my 90 Vert in quite a while. So my $13-$25/can R12 is feeling pretty cheap right now. In the meantime, I have helped lots of people with their A/C.
The guys in Arizona and Cali have had great results with Freeze12. If I couldn't get R12, I would use Freeze12.