Has anyone used these?

http://www.pineappleracing.com/index...PROD&ProdID=11

If so, do they work, or do you get the suggested 8hp increase?

 

Theyre suppose to give you more smoother powerband and increase low end power, im not sure about mid to topend power.

Theyre suppose to be a great upgrade for anyone with an s4 na running 5/6 ports, I have considered putting these on my car but I am skeptical about doing it.

I've heard stories about the inserts coming out and causing engine failure (blown engine), but Ive also been told that this happening is a very very rare thing and they wont ever come out if installed properly, I'm not sure if pineapple still offers the service to install them for you free of charge with purchase (they use to).

 

There's also something similar available from Motive Fab.. It makes good physics-sense to me- I can see how it would improve the airflow by reducing the turbulence of the intake air through the ports. I'm still debating whether to try fashioning my own take on them using some JB Stick that I've got and some spare sleeves to try it out.

 

I'm sure there are others available but i'm asking about the pineapple racing ones.
Do they live up to the claims?

 

Those plastic ones don't look like they'd help as much as the Pineapple ones, since they at angular instead of curved.

It's too bad that taking the LIM off is such a PITA.

 

I don't have before and after dynos, but I run the pineapple inserts on my 172rwhp s4

 

How long have you had them installed (how many miles) ? Did you install them yourself or did pineapple install them for you.

If you installed them yourself, I'm guessing you used the blue loctite to do it, how hard was it ?

Im skeptical of doing it myself or even having them at all, just because of stories I heard but if I can get enough positive reviews/feedback on them maybe I'll consider getting them, I'm sure they help alot with the low end...and woul especially help me since I dont even have any 5/6 ports and theyre all removed.

Id probably also look into portmatching the intake manifolds, i ported mine very little that are on there now but they are " ported " , my throttlebody however was heavily ported but its not exactly the best or the smoothest porting :/ but i think i did ok..maybe someday I'll buy another tb and do it better. ( i donno if this mod even gives much hp tho)

 

I didn't put them in, nor did I do the porting on my intake manifolds either. That was all done when the motor was built. But I haven't had a problem in the 2.5 years and 20k miles that my motor has been around.

 

These "how much hp/did you feel a diff" threads are so trite and dead ended. I have them and had them install them. Total installation fee 4.22 for shipping. The clearances on the inserts are so close that I really don't know how all these people have them failing. The very notion that these are somehow dislodging/sliding and flying into the chambers is defying the laws of physics. The insert cannot fit through the opening. If you understand the theory behind it it makes perfect sense.

 

I feel pretty confident about installing them myself, and I've never used blue loctite and i'm just wondering if blue loctite is the best adhesive.

 

you would use grey or green loctite, as both are higher temp and stable with solvents such as gasoline and acetone.

You would not want to use blue loctite on anything that had fuel running on it. In addition blue loctite (242) is only rated to 110F.

 

I used to install these when customers would bring them to me during an engine build. IN the beginning, Pineapple's "instructions" consisted of, well, nothing. ON their website, it used to say "these are a press fit" and so that is what I went by when installing them. And yes, they are designed so they cannot POSSIBLY come out of the hole and into the engine. Sounds good, right?

NOT.

After about 3 engines (1 very quickly, 2 others within 3 years) died due to these, it became clear to me the design might be good but the implementation was shitty. What happened was that over time, with the engine's vibration, heat cycling, and air pulsation in and out of the chamber, the insert worked its way free inside the sleeve. Now, it couldn't come out of the hole, but it could damn sure slide back and forth in the sleeve. Finally it would bang into the rod at the end of the sleeve, the short rod that the longer manifold actuator rod locks onto. Eventually it would break the rod in half and then the pieces of the ROD would fall into the engine and tear it all to hell.

I even advised Pineapple of the problem that needed to be addressed and they ignored it for about a year, but not before basically saying that I was a dumbass for not automatically knowing how to "properly" install their parts, by drilling and tapping a countersunk screw into the end or other means. They finally changed their website to add that the customer/installer should explore their own options for holding them in place.

Bottom line, it's a great idea, and it is possible to execute safely with enough effort, but it's a risk not worth taking for the 1-2 hp you might gain. Nobody that installed them could tell a difference, that I spoke with, and I certainly couldn't.

 

Well said. I would be more interested in custom sleeves with the contour built in. Another idea would be to control the flow of the aux ports from outside of the LIM/Engine the way that VDI does it. From the manifold. I suppose that would mean a custom manifold. but, I can imagine it would work really well and would improve air-flow by not having to push air through the smaller diameter sleeves with all of the obstructions of the mechanism.

Just an idea.

 

I'm running the sleeves, but I couldn't tell you if they really made much more power by themselves. I installed them, secured them with green loc-tite (lightly peened the sleeve to mechanically secure the insert) and did some light smoothing/sculpting in the sleeve and the insert. Then I gasket matched, sculped, smoothed and lightly polished the LIM, and UIM. (I had it apart for a PD and some gaskets/hoses and just couldn't leave it alone)
After the sleeves and the manifold work, I noticed the throttle response was a bit better and it seemed like the car might be a bit easier to get off the line. When I took it out of town and up to redline a few times I was pretty surprised to feel that the aux port transition was a lot more pronounced and there was a big jump in power from 6K to 7K! Also interesting was that the power stayed on until 7.5K. (Nice for AutoX and Hillclimbs!)

 

With all thats been said I think the best bet on a s4 na would be to get a s5 intake with vdi, these dont use any kind of ports with rods in them like the s4 does right (meaning you cant use the pineapple sleeves on s5 na intake)

I think the s5 intake with vdi would probably give better mid and upper power band, but i think the s4 would probably give better low end. My engine is streetported tho, by Kevin Landers up above , so im not sure which intake would give better peak power and or which would give better all around powerband.

I figured with an rpm switch on the vdi intake , or the s4 you can adjust the torque/power curve to your liking according to when you decide to have them set to open , be it 3500 rpm , 4000pm or 4500 etc.

Youd probably need to get dyno to see decide which rpm to go with though, I dont think the sit in the seat driving dyno would do much for you, but maybe it would.

Also , I ported my throttle body myself and its not the best job not exactly the smoothest , could this cause any kind of hesitations or anything like that ( i figured the hesitation is just from the 5/6 ports being removed).

 

I got into this discussion a bit a while back and came to the conclusion that Pineapple made a product and didn't test it. I contacted them about the sleeves regarding if they had any proof that they worked. They didn't give any proof.

Here's the thread: https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...3&page=2&pp=30 . From the response I got from them, they're not worth a damn. If a company is willing to make claims without backing them up then they're not worth doing business with.

This product makes claims that go above and beyond Pineapple's, but would you ever buy one? I sure as hell hope not. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Vorte...spagenameZWDVW

Here's the conversation I had with them via email. Very discouraging if you ask me...

Their response...
He told me that if I returned them I should publish the results of the data. Me, a poor N/A owner (and 99% of us are), is supposed to do testing like that? That isn't cheap. Now, the company that makes them, with FAR MORE resources than I is telling ME to publish results?

 

Do you actually understand what the 6PI system does? The auxiliary ports are closed for the bottom half of the rev range and open in the top half. Obviously the insets will do nothing until the ports open, making your statements wrong.

Completely wrong. The S5 has exactly the same rotating sleeves (with rods) as the S5. The only difference is that switched air pump pressure is used to actuate them instead of exhaust backpressure.

Wrong again. The whole point of the VDI system is to widen the power band by increasing available torque on both sides of the torque peak, which is exactly what it does.

Even more wrong! There only one correct rpm to open the VDI valve; opening it at any other point will result in a loss of performance compared to this ideal rpm.

The attached pic is a dyno graph from Mazda's development of the VDI system, taken from the SAE paper on the S5. It shows the torque curve of the S4 13B compared to manifolds with different "communicating" lengths, which is the length the pressure waves travel from port to port. The chosen lengths for the S5 manifold were "d" (400mm longer) when the VDI valve is closed at low rpm and "a" (200mm shorter) when the valve is opened high rpm. The two curves cross at 5200rpm, which is when the ECU opens the valve. The resulting torque curve is higher than the S4's at nearly all points in the rev range.

Some people should refrain from making any more comments on the 6PI and VDI systems until they understand them a lot better...

 

A night at the track is at most 25.00. Back to back quarter mile times are a surefire way to gauge power output differences. I think he was just confident in telling you to come up with results showing no change in performance. No have at it and go to the track.

 

The track would be the wrong place to try to prove the inserts' effectiveness, unless you plan on swapping them in in-between runs. Otherwise you're doing before and after testing on two different days (possibly weeks apart), which introduces variables that can have as much or more effect than the inserts do. You really need the controllability of a dyno for this.

 

uhhh it could just be me but i think th rx-8 sleeves come with these built in to them

 

That is what I have argued with Blake at Pineapple for years.

But they seem un-willing to do real same day dyno testing of with and without.

 

Correct, they do. This would seem to strengthen the case for using them, but it still doesn't change the fact the Pineapple refuse to offer actual proof of their claims. Personally I can't see how they could be anything but beneficial (basic fluid dynamics says so), but it's exactly how beneficial that everyone wants to know.

It does seem kinda obvious doesn't it? It's not a good look, because it looks to potential purchasers like they're afraid of what the results will be. Either that or they know what the actual results are and realise they won't sell as many if people know the truth. Since we don't know, we can only speculate. In the absense of the facts, perception is everything.

 

Even if they could only claim a 2hp increase... or even just throttle response. They could still sell them if they could prove it with dyno results. What are the sleeves made of? Aluminum correect? I would say the perfect way to install these is a tack weld. Or even TIG'd. Pineapple should allow people to send them their sleeves, and get them back with the inserts installed via welder. And 50 bucks is a LITTLE steep. I would pay 30.. but I don't think I can justify 49.00 + shipping.

 

What NZ said... There's FAR too many variables involved in a night at the track even if you could miraculously switch the sleeves instantly. Much less between nights/weeks.

+1

+1
My guess is that they've done dyno's on the inserts and have numbers. As of now, they're selling a product, basically, because they say it's good.

Anyone want to buy an "electric supercharger"? I could claim they're good and show no proof.

Anyone want to buy a "vortex intake"? I could claim they're good and show no proof.

Anyone want to buy "headlight fluid"? I could claim they're good and show no proof.

See where I'm going?

 

I think on a "boosted" 6 port these would work great because you are pushing the air in. I believe pineapple has done dyno testing and found marginal improvements, but not enought improvement to justify the expense of pulling off the intake and going through all the labor. How much work would you do for 2-4 hp, let alone how much would you spendThe price is cheap enough, but oh my god, what a bunch of labor for so little gain. I am sure if they produced even say 10 hp then pineapple would be posting true before and after dyno graphs, wouldn't you!