Ice_Wolf

I'm going to rule out the Pineapple Racing and the Mazda competition oil pans because they are a little out of my price range ($300+) ATM, and they wouldn't be needed for what kind of use my car gets. Also, the Mazda competition oil cooler is very pricey too, and another thing that I can rule out since my car does not get serious track use.

What is the rating on the Racing Beat OPR? I'm wondering if the stock FD units would be better like Kevin said.

When you guys were talking about doing the oil pan baffle, is that something that didn't come on the FC stock? And what do you mean by using longer studs and it having a subsequent oil leak?

When you said metric washer shim e-shaft pellet mod, were you talking about the oil pressure regulator shim mod that's listed on Aaron's website? And Aaron, when you said eccentric oil jet mod, you're refering to the same mod? Also, wtf is the RB thermo bypass pellet?

I agree about running the two oil coolers. It's going to overcool the oil and not let it reach operating temperature. This would be especially bad for me since I live in cold climates (down to -20 degrees F). Also, running 15W50 or 20W50 with dual oil coolers in cold climates is even worse idea. It'll take a long time for the oil to heat and and protect the engine properly. I'm guessing an oil cooler relocation kit would also not be that good of an idea unless you're running a FMIC? I'm pretty sure the stock location is the best location. Are the FD oil coolers better than the FC ones?

To change to a TII oil pump, you have to remove the front cover correct?

This is the list of stuff that I will probably be doing for sure on the car so far. Depending on what I can figure out from the information listed above, I'll probably add to this list.

Mazdatrix SS braided oil cooler lines
Flush oil cooler
Oil temperature gauge
Make sure oil level sensor is working properly and not leaking
New oil pan gaskets
New motor mounts
New front cover gasket
Make sure oil pressure sensor is working properly and not leaking

Wankel7

Not sure if the car is running or not now....but put the oil temp gauge in first so you can get a baseline before you do all those changes.

James

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

Is it feesible (ie, nothing more than swap--no drilling or tapping) to switch to an FD oil cooler set up? (I couldn't find the link I was looking for) And doing so would it prove detramental to the cooling of the oil?

Biznatcher

Dual Stock FM Oil Coolers FTW

Black91n/a

The FD coolers are much smaller than the FC ones, that's why they need 2.

The baffle is not on there stock, and it introduces another sealing surface for another potential leak, it's a reasonably common problem when taking the pan off. They're available from Racing Beat, etc. Longer bolts or studs aren't really needed. I've never had a problem with stock bolts.

Racing beat sells 2 OPR's, 80 and 100 (IIRC), the FD one is 80 and is cheaper, or you can shim yours.

But seriously, why are you wanting to do all this? Most of it's 100% pointless unless you're going to the track a lot.

micah

Is there no additional offered protection from running say a TII fuel pump, higher pressure regulator and shimmed front? Seems like the additional pressure would protect your rotor bearings during high rpms more. I suppose there's the possibility of pushing oil past your oil seals...

nittoracer753

why remove the OMP? is it bad, or do u get more power that way?

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

That's one of the reasons why i'm considering doing such a thing. The space saved by switching over would prove to be helpful in my situation where I do not want to block more fresh airflow to the radiator or oil cooler than necessary.

Black91n/a

Well that's my point, if it's just a street car it'll just see occasional high rpm's and not sustained high rpm operation, so it's not needed. The engines last just fine in regular street driving.

micah

Good point, I've heard the NA oil pump is actually pretty robust and pumps quite a bit. But, its too tempting to bolt on a TII oil pump. Same price, bolt-on... Any reason to put it on withOUT modding the regulators?

Black91n/a

Yea, if you're building an engine you might as well use a TII pump, FD regulator, add the baffle, do the thermo pellet mod and all that, but if you're talking about doing it in the car then the cost and effort probably isn't worth it.

micah

Any thoughts on the somewhat common thought that the extra pressure will push oil past the oil seals and make an oil-burner? It doesn't do that on the FD/TII, so I can't imagine why.

Sorry if I'm hijacking... but atleast its on-topic.

Ice_Wolf

Good idea with putting the temp guage in first. I'm guessing to hook one up you just tap the oil cooler and install a sensor?

Thanks for the heads-ups about the FD oil coolers. Looks like I'll just be running the stock FC one since two coolers will cool the oil too much, and the aftermarket ones are very expensive. Also, the stock one is said to be one of the best oil coolers you can buy and is better than most aftermarket pieces for other cars.

Alright, so the baffle is not a stock thing. I'm guessing that it basically helps to keep the oil near the oil pickup tube. If the pan is already leaking, why would you not try and put a new gasket in anyways? Or is it that once you install the baffle that the baffle itself can make the pan leak? Why would you need longer bolts?

RB sells a 80 PSI and 105-115 PSI regulator. By shimming the OPR, do you increase the ammount of pressure it can put out? Also, I'm guessing too much oil pressure will blow out the lines, filter, and other components? I'm also curious if too much pressure will push passed the oil seals and cause the engine to burn oil.

The TII oil pump would also be a nice mod I think. To change it, you have to remove the front cover?

When you said metric washer shim e-shaft pellet mod, were you talking about the oil pressure regulator shim mod that's listed on Aaron's website? And Aaron, when you said eccentric oil jet mod, you're refering to the same mod? Also, wtf is the RB thermo bypass pellet?

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Won't happen. The oil seals don't see full oil pressure, or anything close to it.

Use an aftermarket filter pedestal with built in ports. Sold by Mazdatrix, SpeedMachine, etc. More accurate reading and it's likely the o-rings under your stock pedestal are leaking anyway. Fairly cheap at around $50-$70.

Personally I've not had a problem with leaking baffles because I do the following:

1. CLEAN, CLEAN, CLEAN and CLEAN SOME MORE. The mating surfaces between the baffle, pan and engine should be spotless. Use brake cleaner and a clean cloth.

2. Use gaskets. Don't skip them and use RTV.

3. Apply a THIN coat of RTV over the gasket. Just enough to lightly cover the surface. Too much makes a mess and might clog the oil pickup.

4. Use longer bolts. Replace the stock bolts with something about twice as long.

5. Use washers. On the head of each of these bolts, use a washer to distribute the load.

6. Torque in steps. Torque the bolts in two or three steps while installing, finishing at about 12 Ft-lbs.

Yes. Shimming is free, buying a replacement costs money.

No, not really. But 100 PSI or more is generally unnecessary for the street.

Nope.

Open up your copy of the Haynes manual and look it up. But yes.

No. The eccentric oil pellet mod is different. Check the Archives for a long and informative topic.

No. I'm talking about the eccentric oil jet mod. Search.

The thermal pellet mod mentioned above.

micah

Wow, you are the first person I've heard to say to use the gasket instead of only RTV. Do you recommend that for all builds? or just ones with a baffle.

NZConvertible

If you were talking about a race car with an oil temp problem then you'd be right. But on a street car that spends most of it's time at low load, that's completely wrong. The oil will normally be at around the same temp as the coolant or a bit higher, and that's where it's designed to work best. But unlike the coolant which has a thermostat to keep it's temp above a minimum level, the oil can be cooled below the normal operating temp if another oil cooler is added. There is no good reason to do this.

That could not be more wrong or irrelevant.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Yes, I always use a gasket. The RTV is good at sealing slight depressions, but the gasket is best at sealing the entire surface.

Ice_Wolf

Alright, I've ruled out the Pineapple Racing pan and MAZDASPEED pans because of their price. I'm not looking to spend 350+ dollars on a pan that's not going to really get used to what it's potential is. This is mostly a street car, so it won't be needed. I've also ruled out dual oil coolers or aftermarket oil cooler due to a dual setup over cooling the oil and aftermarket ones costing 500+ dollars.

Things I will be doing for sure:

Mazdatrix SS braided oil cooler lines
Flush oil cooler
Oil temperature gauge
Make sure oil level sensor is working properly and not leaking
Make sure oil pressure sensor is working properly and not leaking
New oil pan gasket
New front cover gasket
New oil cap
K&N oil filter
Castrol GTX 20W50 oil
Mazdatrix oil filter pedelstal

Is it possible that you can shim the FD OPR's too? If not, than can you shim the FC ones up to the point where they would put out the same oil pressure the FD ones do? Has anyone here ever used the Racing Beat OPR's? Also, why would more than 100 PSI of oil presure be unessecary?

Not sure if I want to use an oil pan baffle plate yet. Where can you get them from and how much do they cost? Are they really that useful? Why do you need the longer bolts?

From what I've read, the TII oil pump is a good mod because it can move a lot more volume than the N/A pump. Maybe that's something else to consider while doing the front cover gasket.

Now, this is where I'm still kind of lost. The eccentric oil pellet mod is the same thing that Racing Beat sells that's called the themo bypass pellet correct? I'm guessing the metric washer shim e-pellet mod is the eccentric oil pellet mod also? What's the eccentric oil jet mod then? This **** is confusing.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Why is the front cover being removed? There's no reason to open up a can of worms unless there is a specific purpose to removing the cover.

Uh, sure...OK...Old one broke?

Yes, but why would you need to? 100 PSI is fine on the street. My shimmed FC regulator (3 washers) puts a 100 PSI oil pressure gauge off the scale above 5K.

http://www.aaroncake.net/rx-7/shimoil.htm as already mentioned.

Yes, I have. They come with a higher oil pressure from the factory (80 PSI?) and have a removable end cap that makes shimming easy. I've never quite figured out how this is useful since it's not exactly easy to access the oil pressure regulator after the engine is built.

More then 100 PSI of oil pressure is unnecessary simply because it is. The stock levels are more then adequate for cooling and lubrication on the street at reasonable RPM levels on even highly modified engines.

Cranking up the oil pressure to astronomical levels just has these effects:

1. More stress on oil pump. The shafts can and do shear off, and the Woodruff key locating the gear can shear as well.

2. More parasitic drag which sucks power from the engine. Loads of people whine and moan about the 1 HP the airpump takes, yet I wonder how many of them think about the power it takes to push oil at a high flowrate at close to 100 PSI through their engine?

3. More stress on gaskets that seal oil passages. Specifically, the front cover o-ring...

Racing Beat, Mazdatrix, make your own, etc. Around $60.

If you intend to run autox or do some road racing they are. They prevent oil from sloshing away from the pickup under hard cornering.

The added thickness of the baffle and extra gasket.

If you have no issues that require front cover removal, I suggest you leave it alone. There are two major gotchas when removing the front cover, and both will cost you an engine (and essentially turn the rotating assembly into a lamp) if you mess them up.

More or less. The "mod" refers to shimming the existing thermal pellet while the RB (or other vendors) thermal pellet is a replacement piece that does not contain a thermostat.

The eccentric shaft has two oil jets that fire into the rotors. This is the only way the rotors can receive cooling and also the major reason the rotary requires an oil cooler. The stock jets consist of a check-valve that works with the eccentric oil thermo pellet. The thermostat in the pellet opens a bypass port at the front of the eccentric shaft when the engine is cold, thus lowering the pressure in the shaft and closing off the oil jets. When the engine warms, this bypass is closed, pressure in the shaft raises and the oil jets open up and spray the rotors.

The jet mod involves removing the jets, discarding the check-valve assembly and replacing it with a (usually Weber) carburetor air jet of approximately 0.040" (I think...it's been a while...could be a #200 Weber air jet). This dramatically increases the amount of oil sprayed into the rotors and thus provides better cooling under stressfull conditions. However this will also lower oil pressure at low RPMs. With the TII oil pump the difference is a few PSI. On the NA oil pump pressure at idle is lowered quite a bit. I see about 10 PSI at my ~1400 RPM idle which increases by 10 PSI per 1000 RPM until about 4K where it leaps to over 100 PSI by just after 5K.

This is totally unnecessary on any street car. I primarily did it since keeping the rotors cool is important when putting a bunch of boost through a high compression engine.

Probably, yes. To confuse things even more, real racers run much lower oil pressure...not uncommon to find race cars running 40 PSI to keep parasitic drag to a minimum.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Of course it will.
Running the oil through a second cooler will induce more pressure drop and thus, lower flow.
Whether the temp rise due to lower flow is overridden by the extra cooling is debatable (and certainly dependent on how you plumb the second cooler).And the cooler the oil, the higher the parasitic drag on the oil pump.
Again, a trade off.

You simply can't say that these mods won't have "any negative effect" because they do...the question is does the upside outweigh the downside.

scathcart

Incorrect.

The stock jets consist of a ball and spring setup, and a threaded screw jet.
The ball and spring's purpose is to keep the oil flowing to the rotors under low oil pressure conditions. Under low rpms, the rotors do not need cooling, so closing off the flow of oil to them increases the oil pressure at idle. This is why removing the ball and spring in this mod reduces the oil pressure significantly at idle. No check valve is necessary, there is never any reverse pressure on the jets to cause the flow to go back into the eccentric shaft.

The jets in the stock set-up are the screws themselves. The hole in the middle IS the jet. You cannot make them larger by putting another jet in front of them.

The Oil jet mod intentionally makes the jet smaller. The reason for this is that under racing conditions, where the oil pressure is already substantionally raised, the rotors receive far more oil than necessary to cool them. Under racing conditions, where this mod is necessary, the extra oil pressure saved by reducing the unnecessary flow of oil to the rotors is directed to the rotor and stationary gear bearings instead. This extra flow of oil helps to prevent the bearings from seizing under high rpm load.

The oil jet mod is ONLY for high-rpm racing engines, where the oil pressure is significantly raised. There is no point to doing it on a street car. There is no point to doing it on a turbo car (where the engine doesn't need to rev to the moon to make power). This is for engines that spend the entirety of their life above 7500 rpm.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Just as a note-

Mazda recommends the larger of the two sizes of MFR eccentric shaft oil jets offered for use in racing TURBO applications.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Ah, I see. The way it was explained to me (but a certain rotary expert who will not be named) was that the check ball was a restriction, hence the removal and installation of Weber jets. Your explanation makes much more sense.