Oil seals...
12-13-01, 01:35 PM
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Oil seals...
A local shop just did a compression test for me and it has 110 on all three sides of both rotors. That shows that my apexes are good but can my oil seals be bad and still get a good compression reading? They thought that the reason my car is blowing TONS of white smoke is because my seals are bad in the engine. I told them I thought it was a fuel system problem (i used 3/4 of a tank of gas in one day after driving about 80 miles and smell tons of fumes in the car). Anyways, that is my question...Can my oil seals be bad and still get a good compression reading? Thanx
12-13-01, 01:46 PM
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yeah, you sure can. i perfect compression too, but my oil seals took a crap. I smoke like crazy. Actually, i didnt even have alot of the rubber seals in my rings. ?? i dunno why... i think its a fresh rebuild, but some idiot forgot to do that, so they had to sell it cheap... so im rebuilding mine now. its like $400 to get a kit from atkins and its like a refresh kit, it'll help out a great deal. its also a great time to port that engine. i should be puttin mine together 2nite, ill let u know how it goes...
12-13-01, 01:54 PM
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This shop that its at is having a hard time figuring out what the problem is. Well, one of my friends has a good engine for sale for $750. Would it be easier to just swap in a new engine? I am burning WHITE smoke. Doesn't oil burn blue or black?
12-13-01, 05:08 PM
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Now the guy thinks it might be the oil injector system that injects oil into the intake (i think that's right) Anyways, he says that it is injecting enirely too much oil and that is what is causing the smoking. Do you think this could be the problem? If so, would it be the oil injectors themselves or the oil injector pump? How much does one of those pumps or injectors cost? If its too much, i'll just swap in a new engine and be done with it. Let me know what you guys think.
12-13-01, 05:11 PM
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i think that oil burns blue or white. my 90 GTU is burning oil and its a rebuild with about 5k on it. i have no idea what the problem is either. my 87 rx had the same problem that you seem to be having but my story ended tragically with that one.
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12-13-01, 05:33 PM
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Bad oil seals will burn tons of WHITE SMOKE. Just ask Green from Neb. If they think its the oil metering pump(unlikely), they can just cap that off and run the engine for a little bit. The smoke will still be there probably. If you hesitate to run for such a small time without oil injection, then put some 2cycle oil in the gas tank to protect you self. Your gas milage does make on think a bit. Do you have stock injectors? Does the car idle relatively normal? By the way, the oil seals do something akinder to squat on the compression of the engine. They are made of rubber as in rubber o'rings, therefore on the whole do naddaa for compression.
12-13-01, 05:42 PM
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I do have stock injectors and it seems to idle normal. It might have a slight "miss" in it though but nothing that seemed serious. Get this...before I took it to this shop, it ONLY smoked past 4000rpm, now, after they messed with it, it even smokes at idle speed!! What did they do to make it do this? Is $750 a good price on a good running '88 GXL engine with approximately 140k on it? Do you think i should swap the engine? How hard is a swap?
12-13-01, 08:08 PM
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my 87 gxl smokes when i first start it up and even more after it sits for a couple day. it also smells rich and i just about passed dout when i stood behind it today. how do you adjust the mixture.
oh yeah. i remember something about mixture ratios i read that clued me into your 4000 rpm smoking and gas consumption. i think it may have something to do with the injectors but you can have 2 different ratios in high rpm and low rpm. ex: you can run really lean until 3200 -4000 rpm and then run really rich. you may have oil getting into your injectors if that is the case. i am still learning about rotaries so maybe a guru can back me up or tell me i am wrong
whatever works
Justin
oh yeah. i remember something about mixture ratios i read that clued me into your 4000 rpm smoking and gas consumption. i think it may have something to do with the injectors but you can have 2 different ratios in high rpm and low rpm. ex: you can run really lean until 3200 -4000 rpm and then run really rich. you may have oil getting into your injectors if that is the case. i am still learning about rotaries so maybe a guru can back me up or tell me i am wrong
whatever works
Justin
12-14-01, 02:27 PM
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Hey SPEEDFREAK. Look at this https://www.rx7club.com/vforums/show...threadid=14386 and the picture by Green. Does your smoke come close to this picture? Thats oil burning. White. I missed if you whether or not you said the car idles somewhat normal? Or a real bad idle? I'm still inclined to think oil seals. Just another guesser.
09-15-02, 02:04 PM
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I have a couple suggestions for the guy with the smoking problem. These are things I would try myself.
Prepare yourself for a short essay. I poured my sincere intellect into this so I believe it will be worth the read...
problem a) If you have white smoke, there's a very strong chance that your _water seals_ are going out
suggestion a) If that is the case, then your engine is gone soon and rebuild is eminent. BUT! I would try something called "BLOCK SEAL", which may help you get a few more miles out of the engine. STOP DRIVING this car around until you do the BLOCK SEAL additive. You're only making the water leak worse. Block seal is an engine coolant system additive that is like Epoxy resin with Copper flakes that seek out and seal small water leaks in your block, radiator, etc. Many people have testified that this works. Flush out your radiator, fill with plain water, warm up the engine, shut it off, add 2 bottles of block seal to your radiator(read the instructions first), then run about 20 -30 minutes. Shut off drain radiator and block completely, allow engine to sit for min. 4 hours preferrably 12 hours. Refill with water/coolant mixture and test drive car. Hopefully your (WHITE) smokiing has stopped.
problem B) If your car has _blue smoke_ It could be 1) oil injection too much 2) engine running rich 3) internal oil seals going out
suggestion B) To be honest, I doubt running rich will do this because usually cars blow Black smoke when running rich. If it is your internal seals, pretty much there's nothing you can do about that except rebuild or replace the engine. I hear there is a "refresh kit" available for about $400 in parts which will give you the min. gaskets and seals you need to rebuild. If you do the work yourself you can save and get really educated at the same time. Plus you can have your engine "Ported" out for about 30 more Horse Power when you have it apart. Before you go and pull it out, have a compression test done so you know the condition of the apex/side/corner seals. If you want to just replace the engine, then I recommend keeping the old engine and rebuilding it yourself as a hobby if the engine still is strong and has power other than the smoking.
Last TIP: Before you get into engine swapping and all that, you should make sure it is not your Oil Injection. You really should read a shop manual about this but here's my suggestions.... a) Theres a small metal rod that hooks to your throttle linkage on the front of the throttle body. The rod goes vertically down the front of the intake behind the alternator and all the way down to the left of the main pulley where it attaches to the Oil Metering Pump. This rod basically opens up the Oil Pump to control the amount of oil pumped depending on how much open the throttle. You can manually pull on this linkage and it should be springy and return to the down position on its own. Make sure that it is connectred properly and all. I have seen some Rx7's with an adjusting nut on the rod to change the amount of oil injected.
I'm not entirely sure how this oil injection works but there is a thick vacuum hose from the front of the Dynamic Chamber, it sits vertically above 2 smaller vacuum hoses. This thick hose is about 1/2 diameter and comes straight out about 1/2 inch and does a 90* degree bend down vertically and runs under the intake manifold. Underneath there it attaches to a round plastic diverter or valve of some sort which has 4 smaller vacuum hoses on the other side. Each of these small vacuum hoses runs to one of the actual OIL INJECTORS. It is my belief from seeing this that the Oil Injectors OPEN AND CLOSE based on Vacuum activation. The vacuum come from behind the throttle body so my hunch is that at closed throttle there is high vacuum there and this closes the oil injectors and when you open the throttle, the vacuum is reduced and this allows the oil injectors to open up more. If my theory of operation is correct, then a loose vacuum hose would cause the oil injectors to open up more than they should.
I maybe entirely wrong on this but basically my point is that you should make sure those vacuum hoses are all hooked up correctly. Try playing with the hose and reading up in the shop manual about the operation of the setup to see if you can affect the smoking. I also recall there is a way to test the volume of oil pumped by pulling the plastic delivery lines from the pump. BE CAREFUL BECAUSE many people have said these oil lines are brittle and break easy and they cost alot.
Basically I'm suggestion that you verify that your OIL INjection System is working right before doing an engine swap. Don't let some local repair shop pull one over you by getting you to replace the engine until your sure of this. Also, it only takes about 1 hour to remove the intake manifold and get to the oil injectors and hoses if you need to. Oh if you do pull the upper intake(extension manifold), make sure you have ALL the little vacuum hoses underneath there attached before putting it back on because basically if you put it all back together and realize you left on off, you have to pull everything back off again and put a new gasket too. It sucks.
GOOD LUCK!
Dave
Prepare yourself for a short essay. I poured my sincere intellect into this so I believe it will be worth the read...
problem a) If you have white smoke, there's a very strong chance that your _water seals_ are going out
suggestion a) If that is the case, then your engine is gone soon and rebuild is eminent. BUT! I would try something called "BLOCK SEAL", which may help you get a few more miles out of the engine. STOP DRIVING this car around until you do the BLOCK SEAL additive. You're only making the water leak worse. Block seal is an engine coolant system additive that is like Epoxy resin with Copper flakes that seek out and seal small water leaks in your block, radiator, etc. Many people have testified that this works. Flush out your radiator, fill with plain water, warm up the engine, shut it off, add 2 bottles of block seal to your radiator(read the instructions first), then run about 20 -30 minutes. Shut off drain radiator and block completely, allow engine to sit for min. 4 hours preferrably 12 hours. Refill with water/coolant mixture and test drive car. Hopefully your (WHITE) smokiing has stopped.
problem B) If your car has _blue smoke_ It could be 1) oil injection too much 2) engine running rich 3) internal oil seals going out
suggestion B) To be honest, I doubt running rich will do this because usually cars blow Black smoke when running rich. If it is your internal seals, pretty much there's nothing you can do about that except rebuild or replace the engine. I hear there is a "refresh kit" available for about $400 in parts which will give you the min. gaskets and seals you need to rebuild. If you do the work yourself you can save and get really educated at the same time. Plus you can have your engine "Ported" out for about 30 more Horse Power when you have it apart. Before you go and pull it out, have a compression test done so you know the condition of the apex/side/corner seals. If you want to just replace the engine, then I recommend keeping the old engine and rebuilding it yourself as a hobby if the engine still is strong and has power other than the smoking.
Last TIP: Before you get into engine swapping and all that, you should make sure it is not your Oil Injection. You really should read a shop manual about this but here's my suggestions.... a) Theres a small metal rod that hooks to your throttle linkage on the front of the throttle body. The rod goes vertically down the front of the intake behind the alternator and all the way down to the left of the main pulley where it attaches to the Oil Metering Pump. This rod basically opens up the Oil Pump to control the amount of oil pumped depending on how much open the throttle. You can manually pull on this linkage and it should be springy and return to the down position on its own. Make sure that it is connectred properly and all. I have seen some Rx7's with an adjusting nut on the rod to change the amount of oil injected.
I'm not entirely sure how this oil injection works but there is a thick vacuum hose from the front of the Dynamic Chamber, it sits vertically above 2 smaller vacuum hoses. This thick hose is about 1/2 diameter and comes straight out about 1/2 inch and does a 90* degree bend down vertically and runs under the intake manifold. Underneath there it attaches to a round plastic diverter or valve of some sort which has 4 smaller vacuum hoses on the other side. Each of these small vacuum hoses runs to one of the actual OIL INJECTORS. It is my belief from seeing this that the Oil Injectors OPEN AND CLOSE based on Vacuum activation. The vacuum come from behind the throttle body so my hunch is that at closed throttle there is high vacuum there and this closes the oil injectors and when you open the throttle, the vacuum is reduced and this allows the oil injectors to open up more. If my theory of operation is correct, then a loose vacuum hose would cause the oil injectors to open up more than they should.
I maybe entirely wrong on this but basically my point is that you should make sure those vacuum hoses are all hooked up correctly. Try playing with the hose and reading up in the shop manual about the operation of the setup to see if you can affect the smoking. I also recall there is a way to test the volume of oil pumped by pulling the plastic delivery lines from the pump. BE CAREFUL BECAUSE many people have said these oil lines are brittle and break easy and they cost alot.
Basically I'm suggestion that you verify that your OIL INjection System is working right before doing an engine swap. Don't let some local repair shop pull one over you by getting you to replace the engine until your sure of this. Also, it only takes about 1 hour to remove the intake manifold and get to the oil injectors and hoses if you need to. Oh if you do pull the upper intake(extension manifold), make sure you have ALL the little vacuum hoses underneath there attached before putting it back on because basically if you put it all back together and realize you left on off, you have to pull everything back off again and put a new gasket too. It sucks.
GOOD LUCK!
Dave
Last edited by avrfan; 09-15-02 at 02:14 PM.
09-15-02, 02:53 PM
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White smoke= burning coolant
Blue Smoke = burning oil
Black Smoke = burning fuel (running rich, or starving of air; opposite of choke)
On the oil injectors, like avrfan has described, everything is correct except the part about the vaccuum hoses connecting to the oil injectors. Its actually blowing air in, not sucking air out. Check the Factory Service Manual, it tells you to replace the injectors if you can suck air through it. If you ever have seen the inside of the center plate of the rotory engine, there is a small hole in the rotor housing just under the oil injectors. This is where oil is injected into the rotor area to lube the apex seals, and mixes with fuel. The two in the lower manifold inject oil into to fuel mixture also. If you do a search on premix you will learn that many people premix gas and oil when they refuel the car, just like a two stroke engine, as burning regular engine oil leave carbon deposits in the engine.
Also, be careful letting shops work on Rotary engines if they aren't familiar with them. They tend to charge an arm and a leg while they experiment on your engine. Often times the guinea pig doesn't walk away without side effects. Better to get a factory service manual and learn how to trouble shoot these things yourself.
Oh, on that oil injection bit, it doesn't consume that much oil that the engine will run low. I think the ratio of oil burned is like 1/100 to the fuel. Its a very small amount. You shouldn't run low on oil between oil changes just because of oil injection if its functioning properly, and you change your oil within the prescribed time limit.
Blue Smoke = burning oil
Black Smoke = burning fuel (running rich, or starving of air; opposite of choke)
On the oil injectors, like avrfan has described, everything is correct except the part about the vaccuum hoses connecting to the oil injectors. Its actually blowing air in, not sucking air out. Check the Factory Service Manual, it tells you to replace the injectors if you can suck air through it. If you ever have seen the inside of the center plate of the rotory engine, there is a small hole in the rotor housing just under the oil injectors. This is where oil is injected into the rotor area to lube the apex seals, and mixes with fuel. The two in the lower manifold inject oil into to fuel mixture also. If you do a search on premix you will learn that many people premix gas and oil when they refuel the car, just like a two stroke engine, as burning regular engine oil leave carbon deposits in the engine.
Also, be careful letting shops work on Rotary engines if they aren't familiar with them. They tend to charge an arm and a leg while they experiment on your engine. Often times the guinea pig doesn't walk away without side effects. Better to get a factory service manual and learn how to trouble shoot these things yourself.
Oh, on that oil injection bit, it doesn't consume that much oil that the engine will run low. I think the ratio of oil burned is like 1/100 to the fuel. Its a very small amount. You shouldn't run low on oil between oil changes just because of oil injection if its functioning properly, and you change your oil within the prescribed time limit.
Last edited by Project84; 09-15-02 at 02:57 PM.
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