No interest in Camden's SC kit?
08-06-04, 08:17 AM
#77
Rotary Enthusiast
Originally Posted by digitalsolo
so air/air eh? That's gonna turn that M90 into a big fan though. That'll be like having a 20 cubic foot intake manifold... You're gonna have to spin that thing a LOT to get any boost out of it. I've seen it attempted before, but I'm not sure of the results. Definitely keep me up to date on how it turns out. 
Digitalsolo: I respect your knowledge on the SC subject, but I'm having a little trouble with this statement here... I know you are familiar with Air-2-Water after cooling on the GTP, but the T-Birds always used an Air-2-Air. Talking with some T-Bird guys that upgraded to huge front mount IC's never mentioned having to over spin the M-90 to make up for the bigger IC. The cooler intake temps always made up for the bigger IC volume.
Is this statement based on actual results? Just curious because right now I'm debating whether to run an Air-2-Water or Air-2-Air. If the M-90 will perform more efficiently with an Air-Water, then this will influence my decision. Thanks.
Jeff
08-06-04, 10:23 AM
#78
An Air/Air I/C -WILL- work. And yes, the supercoupe guys do use it. However, with a roots blower, the more volume you have post S/C the less efficient it will be at moving air. The thing about a roots is that it doesn't compress air, it just blows it around. All it really is is a really powerful fan that blows air. A turbo, CSC or Screwcharger still blows air, but it's compressed air. The roots just blows hotter uncompressed air, hence the inefficiency. You can use air/air, and get decent results with some "lag", not real turbo style lag, but just a lack of throttle response (much more air to move), but a proper air/water intercooler can be nearly as efficient (seeing as a roots can't really push 15-20 lbs of "boost") the air/water will have more throttle response and can be just as efficient at the CFM levels that the M90 is capable of. For what it's worth the Syclone/Typhoon guys have air/water stock (as do Ford Lightnings, and I think the new Cobras, as well as some Jags) and the Sy/Ty guys have pushed well into the 11s with air/water using upgraded heat exchangers/pumps. I see around 130* temperature drop across the core on the better aftercoolers for the GTPs.
By the way, I'm not trying to put anybody up/down, I value everyone's opinions on the matter, just hoping to contribute what I know for everyone's help.
By the way, I'm not trying to put anybody up/down, I value everyone's opinions on the matter, just hoping to contribute what I know for everyone's help.
08-06-04, 11:00 AM
#79
Rotary Enthusiast
Your contributions are well accepted and apprecieated. I'm new to SC's and forced induction, so I'm trying to avoid any pitfalls that others have already been through.
Anyway, I'm at the point right now where I have to decide if I want Air-2-Water or Air-2-Air for my M-90 install. I'm using a stock 3rd Generation M-90. I'm looking at getting 6-7 lbs out of it at 11,000 RPM. (My goals are a little more modest than Sonic's...)
Anyway, I'm at the point right now where I have to decide if I want Air-2-Water or Air-2-Air for my M-90 install. I'm using a stock 3rd Generation M-90. I'm looking at getting 6-7 lbs out of it at 11,000 RPM. (My goals are a little more modest than Sonic's...)
08-06-04, 12:08 PM
#81
Rotary Enthusiast
Originally Posted by digitalsolo
Here are a couple of reference shots of my aftercooler setup on my other car (~400 HP Pontiac GTP). It really wouldn't be hard to fab up on an RX7, as you're already doing custom fabbing anyway. If you seriously wanted one, let me know, and I can give you some help.
What kind of water pump are you using?
What does the associated radiator look like size wise?
Is there a back up reservoir of water?
08-06-04, 01:16 PM
#83
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Originally Posted by snub disphenoid
And the difference in curb weight between an S4 TII and an S4 NA is 225 pounds right off the bat. I don't know about you, but 225+ pounds is a lot to me, although maybe not to you.
08-06-04, 01:21 PM
#84
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Snrub
Not that I'm against your forced induction n/a project, but for the weight argument keep in mind that the 225lbs you're quoting is the difference between a loaded up with goodies TII and a stripper n/a. Cut the extras out of the TII, put on the n/a rims and you're at 45lbs + a small drivetrain weight difference between a n/a and turbo.
08-06-04, 01:27 PM
#85
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TIIs came standard loaded up with all the goodies. Surely you have to conceed that I've accounted for atleast 125lbs of your difference.
08-06-04, 01:30 PM
#86
Originally Posted by wozzoom
Do you mind if I ask a couple questions about this setup:
What kind of water pump are you using?
What does the associated radiator look like size wise?
Is there a back up reservoir of water?
What kind of water pump are you using?
What does the associated radiator look like size wise?
Is there a back up reservoir of water?
Radiator is form a VW Scirocco, 59 bucks on ebay, plastic endtanks. It's 27x14x1.25"
And yes, I have a resevoir that self bleeds the system. I'll get some pics soon if you'd like. I figure they may be useful for the thread.
08-06-04, 01:47 PM
#87
Lives on the Forum
Originally Posted by snub disphenoid
No, that's the difference between the standard TII and the base NA. How much weight does a sunroof add?
You really should get off the notion about people keeping their cars stock.
I'd like to see a raise of hands of how many people still have a totally stock FC?
-Ted
08-06-04, 01:49 PM
#88
Rotary Enthusiast
Originally Posted by digitalsolo
It's a centrifugal diaphram pump, from flojet, 3.2 gpm.
Radiator is form a VW Scirocco, 59 bucks on ebay, plastic endtanks. It's 27x14x1.25"
And yes, I have a resevoir that self bleeds the system. I'll get some pics soon if you'd like. I figure they may be useful for the thread.
Radiator is form a VW Scirocco, 59 bucks on ebay, plastic endtanks. It's 27x14x1.25"
And yes, I have a resevoir that self bleeds the system. I'll get some pics soon if you'd like. I figure they may be useful for the thread.
08-06-04, 01:50 PM
#89
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Snrub
TIIs came standard loaded up with all the goodies. Surely you have to conceed that I've accounted for atleast 125lbs of your difference.
08-06-04, 01:54 PM
#90
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by RETed
Don't you just love it when people talk about bone stock cars.
You really should get off the notion about people keeping their cars stock.
I'd like to see a raise of hands of how many people still have a totally stock FC?
-Ted
You really should get off the notion about people keeping their cars stock.
I'd like to see a raise of hands of how many people still have a totally stock FC?
-Ted
08-06-04, 01:54 PM
#91
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Originally Posted by RETed
Don't you just love it when people talk about bone stock cars.
You really should get off the notion about people keeping their cars stock.
I'd like to see a raise of hands of how many people still have a totally stock FC?
-Ted
You really should get off the notion about people keeping their cars stock.
I'd like to see a raise of hands of how many people still have a totally stock FC?
-Ted
08-06-04, 02:01 PM
#92
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by SonicRaT
I did for about a week. Does that count? Oh, exhaust, intake, a fuel pump, FCD, and a MBC should get you to 240 on a tII.
08-06-04, 02:05 PM
#93
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God damn you buy some expensive stuff. Cheap bomz muffler & piping (single) $125, FCD (creeping death) $30, KN cone filter w/home made box $45, FP $75, MBC $25-30
08-06-04, 02:13 PM
#94
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by SonicRaT
God damn you buy some expensive stuff. Cheap bomz muffler & piping (single) $125, FCD (creeping death) $30, KN cone filter w/home made box $45, FP $75, MBC $25-30
08-06-04, 02:20 PM
#96
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by SonicRaT
Yeah, I got a TurboXS MBC for $25. You can get a pretty wide variety off ebay for pretty cheap.
08-06-04, 02:39 PM
#97
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[QUOTE=snub disphenoid]How many people own stock NAs? I never gave the notion that all TIIs are stock. From the factory, the Turbo II weighs that much with none of the available options added on. I wouldn't strip a TII. I wouldn't remove emissions or strip the interior, and I wouldn't dare buy one in that condition./QUOTE]
This is what happens to most Turbo II locally...
Exhaust gets replaced.
Air pump and most emissions removed and blocked off.
Stock wheels gets replaced with aftermarket ones.
Intake is modified.
That's at least 100lbs. to 200lbs. off, if not more.
Stop telling us what we can or cannot do to ours cars.
I'm not ragging you on your SC mods or your choice of an NA over a Turbo II.
I have a problem with your notion that a Turbo II weighs that much more than your NA.
-Ted
This is what happens to most Turbo II locally...
Exhaust gets replaced.
Air pump and most emissions removed and blocked off.
Stock wheels gets replaced with aftermarket ones.
Intake is modified.
That's at least 100lbs. to 200lbs. off, if not more.
Stop telling us what we can or cannot do to ours cars.
I'm not ragging you on your SC mods or your choice of an NA over a Turbo II.
I have a problem with your notion that a Turbo II weighs that much more than your NA.
-Ted
08-06-04, 02:55 PM
#98
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
I'm not telling you what you can and cannot do to your car, I'm telling you what I can or cannot do to MY car. I happen to live in California, meaning you have to keep your emissions equipment functional. Maybe for you, where you can strip your motor bare and save a shitload of weight a TII is not going to be that much heavier. However, for me, in the state that I live in, with the limitations that I have, yes for the most part a TII will be considerably heavier.
I never said that I spoke for everyone else and what they could do with their cars, they can do whatever they want. I was replying to the people that said I should just sell the car and buy a TII and mod that, which FOR ME, would result in a heavier car. I could give a rat's *** what other people do with their emissions equipment, that doesn't change the fact that I can't remove a single thing.
I never said that I spoke for everyone else and what they could do with their cars, they can do whatever they want. I was replying to the people that said I should just sell the car and buy a TII and mod that, which FOR ME, would result in a heavier car. I could give a rat's *** what other people do with their emissions equipment, that doesn't change the fact that I can't remove a single thing.
08-06-04, 03:22 PM
#99
i am legendary
Originally Posted by SonicRaT
God damn you buy some expensive stuff. Cheap bomz muffler & piping (single) $125, FCD (creeping death) $30, KN cone filter w/home made box $45, FP $75, MBC $25-30
Woohoo! Bomz mufflers! That's what I'm running
But yes, ebay is where it's at to get some good deals on things, just gotta keep ur eyes open.
08-06-04, 04:14 PM
#100
Lives on the Forum
Originally Posted by snub disphenoid
I'm not telling you what you can and cannot do to your car, I'm telling you what I can or cannot do to MY car. I happen to live in California, meaning you have to keep your emissions equipment functional. Maybe for you, where you can strip your motor bare and save a shitload of weight a TII is not going to be that much heavier. However, for me, in the state that I live in, with the limitations that I have, yes for the most part a TII will be considerably heavier.
Cat backs are free in Cali.
You can replace your cat with an aftermarket cat in Cali.
The mods difference is typical for a Turbo II owner.
Stock mufflers and y-pipe are heavy.
Running an N1 single type cat-back is some serious weight drop.
Aftermarket cat is ligher than stock.
I used to live in Cali.
You're overstating the emissions requirements to keep the car legal.
How much you think the ACV, EGR (which no Kouki / S5 FC had), vacuum hoses / pipes, and solenoids weigh?
Don't be using emissions as an excuse...
-Ted
Last edited by RETed; 08-06-04 at 04:31 PM.