Need Clutch Experts Asap!
07-03-03, 02:11 PM
#1
Need Clutch Experts Asap!
Well for the guys like JRat they knew my clutch went kaboom a month ago.
I was stuck at my work (32 miles from home) with a car which was constantly engaged.
So i ended up having it brought to a place close to my work(towing costs ==$$$)
They said the pilot or throwout bearing was gone.
Well a week later they finished it but couldn't turn it over to test it. I towed it back to my house and found out it was a bad electrical connection.
After I got it running it still wouldn't disengage.
I then brought it back to their partner shop which was closer to my house.
They have had it for about 3 weeks now.
They changed managers(guy was called in by military)
and now this new guy seems to be getting on the ball.(other guys was a ******* retard)
He opened the car up this week and found out they installed a 1st gen Pioneer clutch. So he ordered the 2nd gen Pioneer clutch and installed it.
He said if he cannot get it figured out by this weekend then he will order a LUKE clutch which only had one model clutch(no 1st gen or 2nd gen).
It is still not disengaging.
So he i going to open it up again and insepct everything.
The previous guy said it was the clutch fork being bent.
Well this guy didn't believe thatand found the wrong clutch. So he fixed one mistake so far. But the main problems is still existant.
SO I am turning to you guys to try and help me figure out wtf is wrong.
Here are the symptoms:
To start it I have to put it in neutral and it will run. I won't be able to get in a gear though.
If i try to start it in gear it will just lurch forward.
So the clutch is constantly engaged........
Any ideas?
I've heard that if you put the clutch in backwards it won't work.
You think the clutch fork is a plausible problem?
The hydraulics work fine. It's been bled and tested.
The slave cylinder will push out about 1 inch.
I need Help ASAP! It's been a month without a car. I have to get driven to work and this sucks.
As for other problems.
The jackasses at the original shop broke the button on my ashtray so it's stuck open now and they blew my interior fuse trying to jump start the car. They also fried my wiper switch(stuck on fast mode in any setting).
I was stuck at my work (32 miles from home) with a car which was constantly engaged.
So i ended up having it brought to a place close to my work(towing costs ==$$$)
They said the pilot or throwout bearing was gone.
Well a week later they finished it but couldn't turn it over to test it. I towed it back to my house and found out it was a bad electrical connection.
After I got it running it still wouldn't disengage.
I then brought it back to their partner shop which was closer to my house.
They have had it for about 3 weeks now.
They changed managers(guy was called in by military)
and now this new guy seems to be getting on the ball.(other guys was a ******* retard)
He opened the car up this week and found out they installed a 1st gen Pioneer clutch. So he ordered the 2nd gen Pioneer clutch and installed it.
He said if he cannot get it figured out by this weekend then he will order a LUKE clutch which only had one model clutch(no 1st gen or 2nd gen).
It is still not disengaging.
So he i going to open it up again and insepct everything.
The previous guy said it was the clutch fork being bent.
Well this guy didn't believe thatand found the wrong clutch. So he fixed one mistake so far. But the main problems is still existant.
SO I am turning to you guys to try and help me figure out wtf is wrong.
Here are the symptoms:
To start it I have to put it in neutral and it will run. I won't be able to get in a gear though.
If i try to start it in gear it will just lurch forward.
So the clutch is constantly engaged........
Any ideas?
I've heard that if you put the clutch in backwards it won't work.
You think the clutch fork is a plausible problem?
The hydraulics work fine. It's been bled and tested.
The slave cylinder will push out about 1 inch.
I need Help ASAP! It's been a month without a car. I have to get driven to work and this sucks.
As for other problems.
The jackasses at the original shop broke the button on my ashtray so it's stuck open now and they blew my interior fuse trying to jump start the car. They also fried my wiper switch(stuck on fast mode in any setting).
07-03-03, 02:45 PM
#2
Man, clutch forks just dont go bad all of a sudden... If you want my honest opinion, if it isnt the hydraulics, then its the throwout bearing. I am still not convinced the hydraulics are working correctly. How far are you from Sky Harbor? I am going to be there tomorrow AM.
Jarrett
Jarrett
07-03-03, 05:42 PM
#3
I'm about 20 minutes from there. The shop still has the car though.
I might have the guy check the hydraulics again. It's reminded me that the previous guy is the one which tested it. And he is the one which didn't notice that it had a 1st gen clutch in it.
---------------------------------
The guy that installed the clutch first said th throw out or pilot bearing was in pieces and the bearing inside were fucked.
Now on my bill of sale it says that one of those were declined. I am thinking he forgot to mark it as being done. Because for him to know that he would have had to take it out.
Right before the car died on me. The bellhousing had a noise coming from it almost like boiling water spilling over but really loud with a little grinding.
It stopped after it wouldn't release.
-----------------------------
My aunt has let me borrow their extra car so I atleast have a way to work now.
I might have the guy check the hydraulics again. It's reminded me that the previous guy is the one which tested it. And he is the one which didn't notice that it had a 1st gen clutch in it.
---------------------------------
The guy that installed the clutch first said th throw out or pilot bearing was in pieces and the bearing inside were fucked.
Now on my bill of sale it says that one of those were declined. I am thinking he forgot to mark it as being done. Because for him to know that he would have had to take it out.
Right before the car died on me. The bellhousing had a noise coming from it almost like boiling water spilling over but really loud with a little grinding.
It stopped after it wouldn't release.
-----------------------------
My aunt has let me borrow their extra car so I atleast have a way to work now.
07-03-03, 06:20 PM
#4
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Do you have an after market stiffer clutch? Sometimes with a stiffer clutch, your old master will not have enough pressure to disengage the clutch. I'm going through the same problem man, i just ordered a new master and slave. The old master is just bleeding air out and not getting enough pressure, i'm sure that's the problem. but if it's a stock clutch and stock pressure plate, it may be something else. Good luck.
Last edited by GT-X FC3S; 07-03-03 at 06:35 PM.
07-03-03, 08:29 PM
#6
It should be relatively simple to determine whether the throwout bearing is allowing the pressure plate to release all the way. While on the lift check for freeplay and fork position. Mark the position and disconnet the linkage and see where the fork should be. You sure the hydraulics are ok? You can have a cylinder go back, leak internally, and therefore see no leakage, but you won't be able to shift. Check freeplay. Push clutch to floor and hold it there for about a minute. Let it up and check freeplay. If changed drastically, hydraulic problem. It could be, not the clutch disengaging, but not enough travel of the throwout bearing to remove pressure on the disc to allow it to stop spinning and allow shifting.
07-03-03, 09:13 PM
#7
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i would double check to make sure the slave cylinder was working correctly.
Things i would check for are:
Clutch fork
Release bearing
the input shaft going into the pilot bearing correctly
slave cylinder (Clutch)
master cylinder (Clutch)
other then those things... u have nothing left unless the internals of the transmission have a problem
Things i would check for are:
Clutch fork
Release bearing
the input shaft going into the pilot bearing correctly
slave cylinder (Clutch)
master cylinder (Clutch)
other then those things... u have nothing left unless the internals of the transmission have a problem
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07-03-03, 10:59 PM
#9
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Originally posted by RETed
I would just shoot the idiots who work there...
-Ted
I would just shoot the idiots who work there...
-Ted
07-03-03, 11:07 PM
#10
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Troubleshooting clutch engagement...
First thing to do is check hydraulics, and bleed or replace. You do this by First taking a measurement from the end of the slave cylinder (the main piece, not the rod and boot) to the clutch fork. Then, have someone push in the clutch pedal, and observe what happens, again taking a measurement. There should be about 3/8"-1/2" of travel here, and it should remain that way until the pedal is released by the operator, not just spring back quickly on it's own. Lack of travel, or inability to hold pressure for very long indicates air in the system or a failed cylinder or 2. You start by bleeding what you have a couple times, and if that doesnt help, replace the master cylinder. Finally, you would replace the slave cylinder, and be sure your rubber hose isnt leaking the whole time.
IF you pass the above test, then you have an INTERNAL problem that requires transmission removal. Examine the throwout bearing (attatched to base of clutch fork) to see that it spins freely, and that it slides freely on the input shaft of the transmission. Lubricate both areas if necessary, or as a precaution. Also examine the fork itself, to see that it isnt bent or broken.
Next, examine the pressureplate. Are any fingers bent, or uneven in relation to the rest? Check the area where the throwout bearing would ride on the fingers (the very inside edge) for excess wear (halfway through or more). Remove the pressureplate, and check the inside surface...are there any cracks or breaks?
Check the clutch disc itself. Any cracks or chunks of material gone? Spec for a new clutch disc is .330" thickness, and a pretty well used up one will be around .245 or so, so take this wear into consideration if you havent already replaced it with a new one. Take teh disc and slide it onto the transmissions' input shaft...see that it slides smoothly from front to back, with no binding. This is an OFTEN overlooked area that can cause problems...if there are metal burrs or debris on the splineshaft, it wont allow the clutch disc to move off of the flywheel when the PP releases, and thus it wont freely disengage. BE sure to lightly lube the splineshaft before reassembly.
Finally examine the pilot bearing. All needles should be present and they should spin freely with your finger, or a clutch alignment tool. A little lube here is also helpful.
When reassembling the parts, the only real place to screw up is a) not lubricating the places mentioned above, or b) putting the clutch disc in backwards, which is damned hard to do, because the pressureplate will barely (or not at all) even let you get the bolts started if this is the case. Still, if the disc isnt marked, the protruding side (that is not flat) goes towards the transmission.
ITs real imporant when you snug down the first 2 bolts of the PP, that the clutch disc be aligned as well as possible using teh tool. Even when using this tool, it is possible to get the disc a little out of alignment, and make installing the transmission a real pain...the better you make sure the disc is aligned in relation to the pilot bearing, the easier the transmission will slide into place.
Put it all back together, and bleed the clutch hydraulics again if necessary. To do this quickly and by yourself, there are a couple of ways.
1) If you have an air compressor, turn the regulator down to around 15psi. Take a spare master cylinder cap, drill a small hole in it, and install it on the clutch MC being sure it is full of fluid. Open the slave cylinder bleed valve a little, maybe 1/6-1/3 turn. Take an air gun with a rubber tip or similar, put it in the hole you drilled, and apply a bit of air pressure. This will force the air out of the system. WHile pressure is being applied, be sure the MC doesnt run out of fluid. When it gets low, close the bleed valve on the slave, and remove pressure. Pump the pedal a couple times and repeat, you should be good to go now if there are no other failures.
2) Without air compressor. Get 2 bottles of brake fluid, and about 1.5 feet of vacuum hose 5/32". Fill the clutch MC, and place one bottle of fluid nearby with the lid still off the reservoir. Open the slave cylinder bleed valve with a box end wrench, and leave the wrench on. Slide the vacuum hose over the end of the nipple tightly. Insert the other end into the other bottle of fluid. Get inside the car and pump the clutch 10 times. Get out, refill MC reservoir, and repeat. Refill MC reservoir, close slave cylinder bleed valve, and remove hose and wrench. You should now be good to go provided there are no other failures such as a bad cylinder. Note that you can also use this method for bleeding brakes as well.
Sometimes after this process the pedal may engage too soon or too late to suit the owner, and there is an adjustment for this inside on the clutch pedal. IT is a rod with a 10mm head on it, and a 12mm locknut. Moving the rod one way makes the clutch disengage sooner, moving it the other way makes it disengage later. You cant screw anything up with this adjustment, unless you move it so far inward that it preloads the throwout bearing even when the pedal is out, which will cause excess wear and failure of the bearing or pressureplate/clutch.
First thing to do is check hydraulics, and bleed or replace. You do this by First taking a measurement from the end of the slave cylinder (the main piece, not the rod and boot) to the clutch fork. Then, have someone push in the clutch pedal, and observe what happens, again taking a measurement. There should be about 3/8"-1/2" of travel here, and it should remain that way until the pedal is released by the operator, not just spring back quickly on it's own. Lack of travel, or inability to hold pressure for very long indicates air in the system or a failed cylinder or 2. You start by bleeding what you have a couple times, and if that doesnt help, replace the master cylinder. Finally, you would replace the slave cylinder, and be sure your rubber hose isnt leaking the whole time.
IF you pass the above test, then you have an INTERNAL problem that requires transmission removal. Examine the throwout bearing (attatched to base of clutch fork) to see that it spins freely, and that it slides freely on the input shaft of the transmission. Lubricate both areas if necessary, or as a precaution. Also examine the fork itself, to see that it isnt bent or broken.
Next, examine the pressureplate. Are any fingers bent, or uneven in relation to the rest? Check the area where the throwout bearing would ride on the fingers (the very inside edge) for excess wear (halfway through or more). Remove the pressureplate, and check the inside surface...are there any cracks or breaks?
Check the clutch disc itself. Any cracks or chunks of material gone? Spec for a new clutch disc is .330" thickness, and a pretty well used up one will be around .245 or so, so take this wear into consideration if you havent already replaced it with a new one. Take teh disc and slide it onto the transmissions' input shaft...see that it slides smoothly from front to back, with no binding. This is an OFTEN overlooked area that can cause problems...if there are metal burrs or debris on the splineshaft, it wont allow the clutch disc to move off of the flywheel when the PP releases, and thus it wont freely disengage. BE sure to lightly lube the splineshaft before reassembly.
Finally examine the pilot bearing. All needles should be present and they should spin freely with your finger, or a clutch alignment tool. A little lube here is also helpful.
When reassembling the parts, the only real place to screw up is a) not lubricating the places mentioned above, or b) putting the clutch disc in backwards, which is damned hard to do, because the pressureplate will barely (or not at all) even let you get the bolts started if this is the case. Still, if the disc isnt marked, the protruding side (that is not flat) goes towards the transmission.
ITs real imporant when you snug down the first 2 bolts of the PP, that the clutch disc be aligned as well as possible using teh tool. Even when using this tool, it is possible to get the disc a little out of alignment, and make installing the transmission a real pain...the better you make sure the disc is aligned in relation to the pilot bearing, the easier the transmission will slide into place.
Put it all back together, and bleed the clutch hydraulics again if necessary. To do this quickly and by yourself, there are a couple of ways.
1) If you have an air compressor, turn the regulator down to around 15psi. Take a spare master cylinder cap, drill a small hole in it, and install it on the clutch MC being sure it is full of fluid. Open the slave cylinder bleed valve a little, maybe 1/6-1/3 turn. Take an air gun with a rubber tip or similar, put it in the hole you drilled, and apply a bit of air pressure. This will force the air out of the system. WHile pressure is being applied, be sure the MC doesnt run out of fluid. When it gets low, close the bleed valve on the slave, and remove pressure. Pump the pedal a couple times and repeat, you should be good to go now if there are no other failures.
2) Without air compressor. Get 2 bottles of brake fluid, and about 1.5 feet of vacuum hose 5/32". Fill the clutch MC, and place one bottle of fluid nearby with the lid still off the reservoir. Open the slave cylinder bleed valve with a box end wrench, and leave the wrench on. Slide the vacuum hose over the end of the nipple tightly. Insert the other end into the other bottle of fluid. Get inside the car and pump the clutch 10 times. Get out, refill MC reservoir, and repeat. Refill MC reservoir, close slave cylinder bleed valve, and remove hose and wrench. You should now be good to go provided there are no other failures such as a bad cylinder. Note that you can also use this method for bleeding brakes as well.
Sometimes after this process the pedal may engage too soon or too late to suit the owner, and there is an adjustment for this inside on the clutch pedal. IT is a rod with a 10mm head on it, and a 12mm locknut. Moving the rod one way makes the clutch disengage sooner, moving it the other way makes it disengage later. You cant screw anything up with this adjustment, unless you move it so far inward that it preloads the throwout bearing even when the pedal is out, which will cause excess wear and failure of the bearing or pressureplate/clutch.
07-04-03, 05:48 AM
#11
Well, They've put in a completely different clutch. The first one they installed turned out to be a 1st gen clutch.
I'll talk with the guy tomorrow.
So I should have him check....
Hydraulicsand bearings.
The slave cylinder pushed the piston out about 3/4 inches out when I tested and bled the system 3 weeks ago. They also tested it(previous idiot not current mech)
I didn't see how long it was holding for.
There are not many part to a clutch system.
Since they've replaced the clutch and PP then it has to be something else. Since it did it the night it boke and is doing it with separate clutches.
It just isn't disengaging.
The tranny and engine are good so me and the mechanic are baffled.
I'll talk with the guy tomorrow.
So I should have him check....
Hydraulicsand bearings.
The slave cylinder pushed the piston out about 3/4 inches out when I tested and bled the system 3 weeks ago. They also tested it(previous idiot not current mech)
I didn't see how long it was holding for.
There are not many part to a clutch system.
Since they've replaced the clutch and PP then it has to be something else. Since it did it the night it boke and is doing it with separate clutches.
It just isn't disengaging.
The tranny and engine are good so me and the mechanic are baffled.
07-04-03, 09:33 AM
#12
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Perhaps I should recap.
Things that can make a clutch not disengage:
-lack of hydraulic pressure
-lack of lubrication/free movement of clutch disc on spline shaft of transmission
-pilot bearing binding on input shaft of transmission
-pressure plate defective
-clutch disc damage
-pedal out of adjustment...adjust rod INWARDS.
-bent/broken clutch fork
Things that can make a clutch not disengage:
-lack of hydraulic pressure
-lack of lubrication/free movement of clutch disc on spline shaft of transmission
-pilot bearing binding on input shaft of transmission
-pressure plate defective
-clutch disc damage
-pedal out of adjustment...adjust rod INWARDS.
-bent/broken clutch fork
07-04-03, 12:16 PM
#13
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those things that cause the clutch not to disengage... would that be the same thing for a clutch that engages half way up, compared to right at bottom before i dropped tranny and put it back on
07-04-03, 12:29 PM
#14
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
The only things that change WHEN a cltch engages are the thicknes of the clutch disc (wear) and the pedal adjustment. Bad hydraulics can change this too, but that'd be inconsistent.
07-07-03, 03:24 PM
#15
ARGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I talked to the guy today. He actually said" I have no idea"
I asked him about the hydraulics and he said he was positive it was fine.
He said he is having a Pioneer Clutch engineer come over tomorrow and have a look at it since he is stumped.
I am gonna talk to him tomorrow and I wrote a list so I can just go through it with him.
Anything else? Could they have ruined a bearing during installation? Could they have screwed up the flywheel in any way when they resurfaced it,that would cause this?
I talked to the guy today. He actually said" I have no idea"
I asked him about the hydraulics and he said he was positive it was fine.
He said he is having a Pioneer Clutch engineer come over tomorrow and have a look at it since he is stumped.
I am gonna talk to him tomorrow and I wrote a list so I can just go through it with him.
Anything else? Could they have ruined a bearing during installation? Could they have screwed up the flywheel in any way when they resurfaced it,that would cause this?
07-07-03, 05:18 PM
#17
Come on people HELP ME!
Hmmm Mac. Only thing I can think of is maybe it needed to wear down a little or maybe a bearing was stuck for a little bit.
These guys have had my car on a lift turning it over in gear and the tires just spinning in the air.
I haven't seen my car in 3 weeks so I can't explain in detail what they are finding.
Hmmm Mac. Only thing I can think of is maybe it needed to wear down a little or maybe a bearing was stuck for a little bit.
These guys have had my car on a lift turning it over in gear and the tires just spinning in the air.
I haven't seen my car in 3 weeks so I can't explain in detail what they are finding.
10-28-03, 05:33 PM
#20
Oh, follow up on this.
The idiots left the centering tabs on the PP or plate and it wasn't disengaging. The last mechanic replaced my master cylinder and then popped the clutch somehow and it ran fine.
They installed a shitty clutch and it would slip after 15 minutes of driving or hard shifts.
Anyways....
The GTU blew a coolant seal friday and I'm gonna put a Jspec in it cause that's all I can afford and I'm gonna put a TII tranny in and then mate it to my NA LSD rearend.
The idiots left the centering tabs on the PP or plate and it wasn't disengaging. The last mechanic replaced my master cylinder and then popped the clutch somehow and it ran fine.
They installed a shitty clutch and it would slip after 15 minutes of driving or hard shifts.
Anyways....
The GTU blew a coolant seal friday and I'm gonna put a Jspec in it cause that's all I can afford and I'm gonna put a TII tranny in and then mate it to my NA LSD rearend.
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