View Poll Results: Consider for a moment that they are both same years, same series
N/A
68
50.37%
TII
67
49.63%
Voters: 135. You may not vote on this poll
N/A vs. TII which do you guys feel would be a better DRIFTER?
09-10-02, 01:57 AM
#76
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one more thing PureSephiroth, if i insulted you for your age im sorry. i have no problem with a younger kid getting into cars or even a younger kid telling me im wrong. the problem is that most younger car enthusiasts dont know as much as they think they do. i started in cars when i was 13, im 21 now. when i was that age, i thought i was a car expert, but all i could actualy do was change oil and spark plugs. even now i dont know everything about every car, but i do know more than i did then. experience counts for a lot, way more than what you can read in a magazine or online. im glad you have an interest in cars, even moreso that your interest is in RX7s. i tell what i know, and from my experience, drifting/sliding is slower. if you can prove otherwise go for it.
09-10-02, 02:06 AM
#77
Old [Sch|F]ool
Fastest drifter in the West! 
lol yeah, but anyway... it gets tiring because there are so many people who act like they know what they're talking about, when the closest they've been to driving a car hard (or at all) is Gran Turismo and watching worn-out Option videos. Tiring because the voices of real-life experience get drowned out by people who were able to cut 3 seconds off of their fastest lap by changing tires and drifting through corners
lol yeah, but anyway... it gets tiring because there are so many people who act like they know what they're talking about, when the closest they've been to driving a car hard (or at all) is Gran Turismo and watching worn-out Option videos. Tiring because the voices of real-life experience get drowned out by people who were able to cut 3 seconds off of their fastest lap by changing tires and drifting through corners
09-10-02, 02:14 AM
#78
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im just tired of people assuming anytime a car is sideaways, its drifting. drifting is getting sideways, and staying sideways. its not trying to go fast, or take good lines, or even about racing. if your goal isnt to go around the entire track spinning the tires and staying sideways, then you arent drifting. if all you are doing is occasionaly kicking the tail out to go around one or a few corners, then you are just sliding. drifting is trying to be as sideways as possible for as long as possible, without losig control of the car. a slide is not a drift. TRUE DRIFTING is not practical and makes no attempt to be fast....ever.
09-10-02, 02:26 PM
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perhaps we are not on the same page as drifting because what i'm talking about is a low angle over steer not complete oversteer so you *** end goes flying out towards the rail. It is not trail braking though i know this for sure. Trail braking is still used for grip but you do not brake in a straight line, you brake while entering. Also it doesn't allow you to shorten braking times because you have to sacrafice traction for braking and turning at the same time so your time it takes to brake the same ammount as threshold braking is more not less.
When i ask people about drifting some tell me its shredding the tires off of your car and throwing your *** end out as far as possible but then other people tell me there is a practical use for the concept of letting your car slide.
Perehaps my conception of TRUE DRIFTING is wrong. I would call TRUE DRIFTING the practical use of the concept not the stylish way. I suppose it depends on how you look at it.
Anyways I'm curious as to what people think about what i really ment by drifting. I don't know what else to call it because that's what everyone else i know calls it. anyways perhaps i can clear up some confusion and end this blasted argument.
By drifting i did not mean fishtailing as far out as you can and blowing a whole bunch of smoke off of your tires. By drifting i meant taking basically the same line as grip but you slide at a low and increasing angle as you enter the turn. On a very tight hairpin at the apex you would be pointing in the direction of the oncoming striaght. You really aren't oversteering that much. Also in the "drift" that i was refering to you begin the countersteer immediatley after you break traction. Also if you're not flooring it, tires that have been broken loose can still provide a decent ammount of traction. So rather than flooring it and letting you *** fly past your nose, you feather the throttle and control you nose with the countersteer.
If you;ve ever seen an evo "drift a paved corner you would know what i mean" it's very low oversteer. Just enough to let you pull your car in towards the inside.
This is how i've always been told what drifting is. I was aware of crazy oversteer type drifting but i thought that drift was also a common racing term. Maybee it's just me and my friends that call it that but none the less, it still fits with the basics that i said before. Perhaps this was the entire cause of this whole thing was uncommon terms. If so, WOW it's really strange how there could be so much confusion over interchangeable terms. Anyways I hope i hope i hope you see what i meant by drift now. I can certainly see why anyone would think i was an idiot if you were under the impression that I thought the ungoddly oversteering opposite lock contest that most people know as drifting was faster than grip. But its not what i meant. Slight sliding no flooring the gas while your tires have broken loose unless you have some sort of TCS i guess. Just enough to pull you car in toward the inside to get higher entrance so you're not sideways when you want to grab the road again and accelerate. Do you see what i mean now, and do you see how it could be faster in a number of situations. Somone once said to me," true drifting is faster then grip in tight corners. You let the carslide before the entrance so you can pull the car to the inside with the gas and then once you hit the apex you regain traction and floor it."
This is where i got my definition of drift i thought it may have been a less commonly know term but that was his idea of "true drifting and that's where i got mine. Of course i didn't just accept it, "drift is faster than grip" I thought logically and found out why and a number of people confirmed what he said to me as being drifting. Well i'm gonna keep calling it drifting, maybe practical drifting, and if you look every so often you will see a lot of 4 wheel drives on road tracks doing this technique as well as a number of RWD vehicles. You see what i mean now by drift is faster than grip. Not in all aplications but in tight hairpins a numer of L's and never regaining traction probably has practical use in chicanes where you decelerate after your exit of the first corner to enter the second. Perhaps not your idea of true drifting but definately a usefull application of the concept that can be pretty damn fast on certain corners.
When i ask people about drifting some tell me its shredding the tires off of your car and throwing your *** end out as far as possible but then other people tell me there is a practical use for the concept of letting your car slide.
Perehaps my conception of TRUE DRIFTING is wrong. I would call TRUE DRIFTING the practical use of the concept not the stylish way. I suppose it depends on how you look at it.
Anyways I'm curious as to what people think about what i really ment by drifting. I don't know what else to call it because that's what everyone else i know calls it. anyways perhaps i can clear up some confusion and end this blasted argument.
By drifting i did not mean fishtailing as far out as you can and blowing a whole bunch of smoke off of your tires. By drifting i meant taking basically the same line as grip but you slide at a low and increasing angle as you enter the turn. On a very tight hairpin at the apex you would be pointing in the direction of the oncoming striaght. You really aren't oversteering that much. Also in the "drift" that i was refering to you begin the countersteer immediatley after you break traction. Also if you're not flooring it, tires that have been broken loose can still provide a decent ammount of traction. So rather than flooring it and letting you *** fly past your nose, you feather the throttle and control you nose with the countersteer.
If you;ve ever seen an evo "drift a paved corner you would know what i mean" it's very low oversteer. Just enough to let you pull your car in towards the inside.
This is how i've always been told what drifting is. I was aware of crazy oversteer type drifting but i thought that drift was also a common racing term. Maybee it's just me and my friends that call it that but none the less, it still fits with the basics that i said before. Perhaps this was the entire cause of this whole thing was uncommon terms. If so, WOW it's really strange how there could be so much confusion over interchangeable terms. Anyways I hope i hope i hope you see what i meant by drift now. I can certainly see why anyone would think i was an idiot if you were under the impression that I thought the ungoddly oversteering opposite lock contest that most people know as drifting was faster than grip. But its not what i meant. Slight sliding no flooring the gas while your tires have broken loose unless you have some sort of TCS i guess. Just enough to pull you car in toward the inside to get higher entrance so you're not sideways when you want to grab the road again and accelerate. Do you see what i mean now, and do you see how it could be faster in a number of situations. Somone once said to me," true drifting is faster then grip in tight corners. You let the carslide before the entrance so you can pull the car to the inside with the gas and then once you hit the apex you regain traction and floor it."
This is where i got my definition of drift i thought it may have been a less commonly know term but that was his idea of "true drifting and that's where i got mine. Of course i didn't just accept it, "drift is faster than grip" I thought logically and found out why and a number of people confirmed what he said to me as being drifting. Well i'm gonna keep calling it drifting, maybe practical drifting, and if you look every so often you will see a lot of 4 wheel drives on road tracks doing this technique as well as a number of RWD vehicles. You see what i mean now by drift is faster than grip. Not in all aplications but in tight hairpins a numer of L's and never regaining traction probably has practical use in chicanes where you decelerate after your exit of the first corner to enter the second. Perhaps not your idea of true drifting but definately a usefull application of the concept that can be pretty damn fast on certain corners.
09-10-02, 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by peejay
The more you argue, the worse you look.
The more you argue, the worse you look.
09-10-02, 04:08 PM
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Well if I recall correctly there are many different types of drift such as power induced 4 wheel drift. There are different types of every technique and this is what i have been told is drift and i still believe it is drifting. It is based on the same idea of letting your rear tires slide. I highly doubt i am the only person on this forum that thinks of my "simulation" if you will, as drifting. Plenty of people will tell you that there is a practical application for drifting and it's probably similar to my idea, so i'm not redefining Drifting i am descibing a different form of the technique. It's not like there aren't multiple types of grip.
09-10-02, 05:32 PM
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hmmm actually u are the first ive seen or ever heard claim this...so i dunno where are all these people? :-D but just imagine if u can do it (w. a car not no stupid numbers cuz that dont mean **** on the track) u b the next drift king:-D haha
09-10-02, 05:45 PM
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numbers reflect possibilties on the track and the better numbers the better your chancer are of being able to go faster. Give me the info that i need to do a proof otherwise shut up. I'm sick of this goddamn endless argument that isn't going anywhere. You say numbers don't matter, fact is, they do. You can't deny physics calculations. Give me the numbers. Untill then I refuse to argue with somebody who doesn't give evidence to their argument. This is my last post, I don't have the time to continue an endless argument. You still think i'm just talking crap. You think i'm lying. Prove you're right, give me the numbers and see if I can't prove YOU wrong. Any other argument is useless now, we've gone through all of this pointless crap, now put your money where you mouth is.
hmmm actually u are the first ive seen or ever heard claim this...so i dunno where are all these people? :-D but just imagine if u can do it (w. a car not no stupid numbers cuz that dont mean **** on the track) u b the next drift king:-D haha
hmmm gen2force it sounds like you're setting yourself up to make excuses as soon as the numbers prove you wrong. Is that it.
Oh and I don't mean that as an insult so don't get offended or anything :-D...
My last post untill you give me numbers is right here, no matter what crap you say about anything. Proff is proof and I'm sick of going through useless crap. So give me numbers or don't. but if you don't, you can never say I was wrong. Of course I can never say I'm right, but i don't really give a ****. I know what I know whether or not you believe me doesn't matter. Numbers, or I'm done here and that's all i've got to say, i'm done wasting my time with this.
hmmm actually u are the first ive seen or ever heard claim this...so i dunno where are all these people? :-D but just imagine if u can do it (w. a car not no stupid numbers cuz that dont mean **** on the track) u b the next drift king:-D haha
hmmm gen2force it sounds like you're setting yourself up to make excuses as soon as the numbers prove you wrong. Is that it.
Oh and I don't mean that as an insult so don't get offended or anything :-D...
My last post untill you give me numbers is right here, no matter what crap you say about anything. Proff is proof and I'm sick of going through useless crap. So give me numbers or don't. but if you don't, you can never say I was wrong. Of course I can never say I'm right, but i don't really give a ****. I know what I know whether or not you believe me doesn't matter. Numbers, or I'm done here and that's all i've got to say, i'm done wasting my time with this.
09-10-02, 06:10 PM
#91
Old [Sch|F]ool
Originally posted by PureSephiroth
Well if I recall correctly there are many different types of drift such as power induced 4 wheel drift.
Well if I recall correctly there are many different types of drift such as power induced 4 wheel drift.
4 wheel drift is not "drifting" and has nothing to do with "drifting". It's not power induced either, it's "induced" by all four tires scrabbling for the pavement as you corner at 10/10ths.
IT'S NOT DRIFTING.
09-10-02, 06:12 PM
#92
Old [Sch|F]ool
Originally posted by gen2ForCe
n i dont mean that as an insult:-D so dotn get offended...im jus saying what im saying
haha
n i dont mean that as an insult:-D so dotn get offended...im jus saying what im saying
haha
09-10-02, 09:06 PM
#93
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peejay obviously has a problem allowing someone other than himself to be correct.
"Drifting implies that, under the combined effects of the lateral compnent of the centrifugal force oon the trear wheels and of the driving torque, the limit of adhesion is reached at the rear wheels before it is reached at the front wheels, whic are subjected to the action of the lateral components of the driving and centrifugal forces only." Sports Car and Competition Driging by Paul Frere (Copyright 1963 Pual Frere Copyright 1992 Paul Frere, Robert Bentley, Inc.) p. 62
"There is no clearly defined borderline between the so-called four-wheel drift and a proper slide or skid." "The drift is the position which a properly designed under-steering car assumes automatically when it is being cronerd near the limit while sufficient torque is applied to the rear driving wheels--at least enough to keep up its speed." Sports Car and Competition Driging by Paul Frere (Copyright 1963 Pual Frere Copyright 1992 Paul Frere, Robert Bentley, Inc.) p. 63
Among others, Paul Frere has 11 first place finishes in Spa Production car races. peejay, is the author of this book wrong. Does the man who has been driving race cars for over 50 years need to adjust his definitions and experience to match yours. Please quit being an Irrational. There are enough them already.
PureSephiroth did the right thing establishing a common understanding the term being used. He explained the point where his understanding was lacking, and confusion that resulted. Prior to joining this forum, I had never heard of people intentionally driving their cars in exagerated slides for prolonged distances. Knowing about this "sport" I interpretted the thread's intent correctly. Now, you want to be able to say I'm right and your wrong, rather than, Ah, I see, in that case we are both right, I was just right about the correct subject. Now you sound like the *** peejay.
"Drifting implies that, under the combined effects of the lateral compnent of the centrifugal force oon the trear wheels and of the driving torque, the limit of adhesion is reached at the rear wheels before it is reached at the front wheels, whic are subjected to the action of the lateral components of the driving and centrifugal forces only." Sports Car and Competition Driging by Paul Frere (Copyright 1963 Pual Frere Copyright 1992 Paul Frere, Robert Bentley, Inc.) p. 62
"There is no clearly defined borderline between the so-called four-wheel drift and a proper slide or skid." "The drift is the position which a properly designed under-steering car assumes automatically when it is being cronerd near the limit while sufficient torque is applied to the rear driving wheels--at least enough to keep up its speed." Sports Car and Competition Driging by Paul Frere (Copyright 1963 Pual Frere Copyright 1992 Paul Frere, Robert Bentley, Inc.) p. 63
Among others, Paul Frere has 11 first place finishes in Spa Production car races. peejay, is the author of this book wrong. Does the man who has been driving race cars for over 50 years need to adjust his definitions and experience to match yours. Please quit being an Irrational. There are enough them already.
PureSephiroth did the right thing establishing a common understanding the term being used. He explained the point where his understanding was lacking, and confusion that resulted. Prior to joining this forum, I had never heard of people intentionally driving their cars in exagerated slides for prolonged distances. Knowing about this "sport" I interpretted the thread's intent correctly. Now, you want to be able to say I'm right and your wrong, rather than, Ah, I see, in that case we are both right, I was just right about the correct subject. Now you sound like the *** peejay.
09-10-02, 09:56 PM
#94
Old [Sch|F]ool
Look at what year those books were written. 1963. Welcome to skinny bias-ply tires on MGA's. Massive slip angles and ludicrous 4-wheel drifts (note the difference) is the norm.
We are not in 1963. We are in 2002. In 2002, "drifting" is a term entirely separate from "4 wheel drift". 1963's "drifting" is what is known today as "4 wheel drift". Today's "drifting" is something totally different.
I apologize. I didn't realize that it was 40 years ago. Let me find my stringback gloves and driving goggles, and I'll hit the road as soon as I adjust the spoke tension on the Bugeye's wheels.
We are not in 1963. We are in 2002. In 2002, "drifting" is a term entirely separate from "4 wheel drift". 1963's "drifting" is what is known today as "4 wheel drift". Today's "drifting" is something totally different.
I apologize. I didn't realize that it was 40 years ago. Let me find my stringback gloves and driving goggles, and I'll hit the road as soon as I adjust the spoke tension on the Bugeye's wheels.
Last edited by peejay; 09-10-02 at 09:59 PM.
09-10-02, 10:34 PM
#95
Originally posted by PureSephiroth
So give me numbers or don't. but if you don't, you can never say I was wrong. Of course I can never say I'm right, but i don't really give a ****. I know what I know whether or not you believe me doesn't matter. Numbers, or I'm done here and that's all i've got to say, i'm done wasting my time with this.
So give me numbers or don't. but if you don't, you can never say I was wrong. Of course I can never say I'm right, but i don't really give a ****. I know what I know whether or not you believe me doesn't matter. Numbers, or I'm done here and that's all i've got to say, i'm done wasting my time with this.
exactly what kind of numbers are you expecting to get here?
Originally posted by peejay
... it gets tiring because there are so many people who act like they know what they're talking about, when the closest they've been to driving a car hard (or at all) is Gran Turismo and watching worn-out Option videos.
... it gets tiring because there are so many people who act like they know what they're talking about, when the closest they've been to driving a car hard (or at all) is Gran Turismo and watching worn-out Option videos.
09-10-02, 10:49 PM
#96
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Wieght
Balance of weight over axels
Skid Pad numbers, g force
0-60 time
0-100 time
60-0 time
100-0 time
suspension ratios i.e. 150 lbs of resistance per inch compressed. (imaginative number there)
Boost patterns and power band numbers
(where is the power at on the tach and how much is there)
60-0 using only engine slowdown would be helpful but not necessary
Any sort of traction acceleration or decceleration numbers would be helpful.
Balance of weight over axels
Skid Pad numbers, g force
0-60 time
0-100 time
60-0 time
100-0 time
suspension ratios i.e. 150 lbs of resistance per inch compressed. (imaginative number there)
Boost patterns and power band numbers
(where is the power at on the tach and how much is there)
60-0 using only engine slowdown would be helpful but not necessary
Any sort of traction acceleration or decceleration numbers would be helpful.
the 60s term for drift has been replaced with 4wheel drift. drift now means *** happy tail sliding. peejay didnt have to try and change paul feres definition of drift, the world already has. ive read a few more recent driving books, and they refer to the aforementioned situation of limits of adhesion driving as a 4 wheel drift. any other rear-loose situation is just a slide. Drifting is an entirely seperate term.
if PureSephiroth can prove that certain sliding situations are faster than griping, then more power to him. i dont believe however, that he is some sort of racing prodigy that in the few years hes researched cars that he has proven what experts couldnt prove over decades of racing. i do wish he would not call any sliding situation drifting though. that really bothers me. since ive been into cars, drifting has always been stupid crazy opposite lock oversteer. its only been recently that ive started noticing the term "drift" being applied to every skidding situation.
09-10-02, 11:16 PM
#97
Originally posted by FC Drifter
... the problem with them is that they are numbers set up for gripping. they change dramaticaly when sliding or skidding. i honestly dont see how he can set up a numerical situation based on a slide with these numbers achieved through grip.
... the problem with them is that they are numbers set up for gripping. they change dramaticaly when sliding or skidding. i honestly dont see how he can set up a numerical situation based on a slide with these numbers achieved through grip.
drifting in my opinion, is an artform, nothing else. sure you can hold competitions, but the competition is going to be based on each driver/car combo. it has no bearing, or practical use in racing (except MAYBE to bail a driver out of a hairy situation, and that's BIG "maybe") numbers need not apply.
09-10-02, 11:19 PM
#98
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Read further dumbass. It was revised in 1992 and includes photos of F1's executing 4-wheel drift upon exiting the turn in order to utilize full acclerative traction in a straight line while continuing lateral movement to setup for the next turn. While drifting does not increase cornering speed per se`, it does increase lap speed by improving speed in the transitions into and out of the turn.
From the numbers PureSephiroth has requested, the coefficient of friction for the car may be determined, and drift proven or disproven as means to increasing overall lap times.
While you rag on one member for his research, some of you need to do a little bit of research your selves. The key is that Sephiroth defined his use of the term drift, making his arguments perfectly accurate. At the same time he acknowledged the modern coloquial definition of drift, thus making those who argued against him correct as well. In the end, the argument is null because both sides understand the point of misunderstanding, and it is mutually agreed that both arguments are correct, so long as the definition of the term in use is fully understood.
I drive, and I study. I recently ran the 22 miles from the california cost to Hwy 101 on Hwy 1 at the north end of 1 in just 30 minutes. Those who have driven this road will have no choice but to admit that this is a very good time for a bone stock N/A with worn tires that was not pushed above 65 at any point in the drive, including the 3 1/2 to 3/4 mile straights. My ability is a result of both my own experience, and the experience of others.
From the numbers PureSephiroth has requested, the coefficient of friction for the car may be determined, and drift proven or disproven as means to increasing overall lap times.
While you rag on one member for his research, some of you need to do a little bit of research your selves. The key is that Sephiroth defined his use of the term drift, making his arguments perfectly accurate. At the same time he acknowledged the modern coloquial definition of drift, thus making those who argued against him correct as well. In the end, the argument is null because both sides understand the point of misunderstanding, and it is mutually agreed that both arguments are correct, so long as the definition of the term in use is fully understood.
I drive, and I study. I recently ran the 22 miles from the california cost to Hwy 101 on Hwy 1 at the north end of 1 in just 30 minutes. Those who have driven this road will have no choice but to admit that this is a very good time for a bone stock N/A with worn tires that was not pushed above 65 at any point in the drive, including the 3 1/2 to 3/4 mile straights. My ability is a result of both my own experience, and the experience of others.
09-10-02, 11:29 PM
#100
lemme see if i get this ...
you're gonna site 1992 info, in 2002, and then support this with F1 racing to support someone trying to apply this **** to streetcars ... then end up declaring the argument "null" ...
and then you call someone else a dumbass ...
good god, you people are babies!
you're gonna site 1992 info, in 2002, and then support this with F1 racing to support someone trying to apply this **** to streetcars ... then end up declaring the argument "null" ...
and then you call someone else a dumbass ...
good god, you people are babies!