jspecracer7

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH....You my friend are IGNORANT!!!

Drifting has HIGHER ENTRANCE speed to create a loss of traction at the rear wheels and DRIFT AROUND THE TURN...which causes lower exit speeds....but GREAT stuff to watch!

The whole Gran Turismo/Initial D thing has people confused! REAL driving is NOT a game. I have VIDEO FOOTAGE of drifter's going thru 90 degree left turns...you can honestly watch them as they go...ALL SLOW and making as much tire spin as possible!

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

I voted NA. a nice GX would be nice, nicer if it had an LSD, but nice anyways.

you DO NOT need alot of power to drift

you need alot of power to drift at high speed, but at 20-30mph (tighter turns), power is NOT a factor. Hell, I drift in my beater chevette, and its lucky if its got 70HP and 80TQ. no LSD either. just light weight and a clutch.

Ni5mo180SX

Im glad we put that one to rest.

BlackSport0187

What makes you think that because you spent so much that everyone has to shell out as much money as you did for a T2 drivetrain? Shipping? Most people can find the needed parts in their area (at least here on the west coast). Rarely does an S4 NA cost anywhere close to an S4 T2. How many T2s out there can be had for less than $1k? The T2 may be the better drifter, but not because it's cheaper than an NA.

Isaac

InfiniIIIREX

First, I say an NA is better for learning how to drift. For advanced high speed stuff, a Turbo II would be better.

Also, in racing, drifting in braking zones and maintaining the same exit speed can be beneficial. Keiichi Tsuchiya would do this to change racing lines that were blocked by the slower cars. Also if your cars sideways, the competition will find it alot harder to pass you, and you can also use this to block their line. Doing small high speed drifts can help out during a race, even if it isn't faster than a grip turn, if your rivals can't take their line they won't be as fast either.

PureSephiroth

I can't believe these responses, now before i start pointing fingers at people i will leave with my last comment. You can physically prove that drift is faster. In true drifting you regain traction after the apex to accelerate, i believe i stated this before. And if you think i'm implying that all the proffesiionals are doing it wrong then you have misread my intentions horribly. Drift kills tires faster than grip. Also, It is very unreliable as far as pulling it off well and consistently. I doubt that a pro would risk losing a race or spinning into a wall with a 100 grand race car. I believe you missinterpereted my ideas on this entire thing.

You are right if you say most drifters are slower. I will agree with that because normally it is used for show however, i still refuse to act like physics don't exist. If you turn in earlier, to brake traction and enter the turn while drifting, you can use the cars engine to propell you to the inside of the corner. Therefore you can enter the corner faster. The idea behind REAL drifting is to regain traction with as little countersteer as possible after the corner's apex, which is the same place where you accelerate while gripping. The perfect drift has better entrance because you can propell the car toward the inside with a higher speed and still stay on the same line, and equal exit because you regain traction and accelerate the same way someone gripping does.

I'm sure only a handful of people can execute it well enough to actually make it noticably faster than grip but if you look at the physics behind the idea, it IS faster than grip.

No matter how difficult it may be to execute properly, you can't deny physics.

I'm not trying to Flame grip or anything. I have no car i don't have a license. I spend lots of my time researching techniques and theories behind racing. I will admit, i have never drifted, gripped, line raced or anything of the sort but if you think about each situation mathematically, there is always a BEST way to take a corner. Even though sometimes it may be nearly impossible to execute it with enough precision to be faster than an easier way to corner. I ment in no way to seem cocky or like I know a lot. I love road racing in general. I love Rx-7's and I love drift. I know that if you're good enough you can be faster with drift than you can with grip. It's what I hope to do. Because only a handful of people can actually use drift as a tool for speed and not a tool for looking cool.

PureSephiroth

By the way, where did I ever say anything about getting my ideas from Gran Turismo or Initial D?

FC Drifter

WRONG!!!!! in true japanese style drifting, you never have traction on the rear. its considered a great skill if you can link several turns together and have the car sideways the whole time. this requires a lack of traction. if you are talking about a 4 wheel drift, then i can see that making sense. but we arent talking about that here. we are talking about crazy oversteering drift. the point is to NOT HAVE TRACTION.

gen2ForCe

dang this was a very interesting read

kristopher_d

Road racing and rallying are two very differet animals. On pavement it is rarely faster, in any mathematical scenario or real life, to drift a corner. Because of the very different traction in rally, drifting (Scandenavian flick, powerslide, etc) are often times much faster. Smoother is always faster. Pavement provides too much grip for *** happy fish-tail drifting to do much good. I will admit to kicking the back end out to make some corners on my last drive. I think the gains I saw were more do to my lack of skill (and reliable synchros) than to drifting being a faster way to corner. Drifting does allow tighter turns, but not faster. Obviously, making the turn is considerably faster than not making it. Traction is required to decelerate, accelerate, and turn. The fastest way to corner is to get the exact right amount of traction on each tire at the exact right time and place at the exact right speed. At this point, you will have 5-10% slip on all four tires. You will probably also be changing your pants if you haven't done this before.

All that being said, each driver has his own technique, and the fastest way for one will not be quite the same as for the other. In addition, the original post wasn't about whether drifting is faster or not, but which car is better. Of course, your car is better, my car is better, and his car is better. It's all about the driver.

peejay

You've just proven that drifitng is slower.

If you wait until after the apex to start accelerating, you are, basically, fucked.

kristopher_d

Well said peejay.

PureSephiroth

but you maintain higher speed untill you hit the apex so your exit is the same.

Higher entrance speeds.

Also if there aren't two sequential corners then you dop regain traction, you don't keep sliding down a straight.

PureSephiroth

and the only time you actually would want to not regain traction is if they were very tight sequential corners, and when the second corner was to be taken slower than the first other wise you would lose time.

PureSephiroth

anyway this argument could go on forever and i really don't like arguing with people on this forum, so i'll leave it at this. Each style has distinct advantages and disadvantages when done properly. No-one can truly max out their car's abilities it's all about crossing the finish line in front. No matter how you do it and if grip is how you do it, then fine. But people don't just drift for no reason, i doubt in Japan they find it better to look cool in a corner and lose than to not look cool in a corner and win. not that grip doesn't look cool. There are situations on any corse where each style is prefferable. I would say on most tight turns a well executed drift will go faster than a well executed grip but on other turns its impossible to lose and regain traction when you want to do so. so they are both great for what they are great for. I believe this will be my last post on this topic for a while.^_^ sorry about 3 posts in a row.

peejay

Higher exit speed is much much more important than higher entrance speed. If you exit the corner going faster, then you're faster all the way down the straight.

Higher entrance speeds is not as important. That's what brakes are for. I'd rather exit a corner going fast, carry my extra speed all the way down the straight, and then have to brake 10-20 feet earlier and brake down a little more, so that I can set up the next corner so my exit speed is as high as possible.

If you consider road racing to be a series of drag races, then a higher exit speed is analogous to shallow staging. When you shallow stage, you're going faster by the time you cross the start line, and your times drop. In either instance, higher exit speed (exiting the corner, exiting the launch pad) means you have a "head start" on the straightaway and you get it over with quicker.

FC Drifter

despite what you may think, you dont seem to know a whole lot about the drifting we are talking about here. you are still wrong. im not goin to argue about the grip being faster than drift, because honestly i dont know enough about the technique side of grip, i just drive fast and try to take a good line. i will however, argue about your misconceptions about drifting.


Also if there aren't two sequential corners then you dop regain traction, you don't keep sliding down a straight

yes you do. its called Sway Drifting. ive seen it several times. the car never regains traction on the rear end. thats the point.


"and the only time you actually would want to not regain traction is if they were very tight sequential corners, and when the second corner was to be taken slower than the first other wise you would lose time"

true, a driver does not want traction when taking tight back to back corners, but also he wants to keep it sideways after the turns as well. again, the point is to NEVER HAVE TRACTION. and in drift, times dont matter.


" But people don't just drift for no reason, i doubt in Japan they find it better to look cool in a corner and lose than to not look cool in a corner and win. not that grip doesn't look cool."

correct. drift isnt done just for no reason. its done as a show of skill, as a new way to drive, and becuse its a lot of fun. BUT, you wont find a driver out on the track drifting in a JGTCC race or any other race for times or position for that matter. grip and drift are two completely different techniques used at entirely different places. in a race for times or positions, drivers dont drift, anywhere. drift competetions are seperate from grip races, etc, etc.and again, in drift times dont matter. drift comtetions are measured on style mostly, along with technical things like how sideways the car is and how long the car stays sideways and such.

i think you dont quite understand the true kind of drifting. drivers dont drift because its faster or anything. in all truth, most people who do drift do it for show, not for any speed reasons. the car gets way too sideways to keep speed up and stays spinning as long as possible. if youve only seen some option videos, or Initial D, or played Gran Turismo, then youve probably only seen short bits and peices of competitions or track times. but if youve seen home videos of entire laps of a track, youd see the cars dont stop spinning the tires. the whole track is taken at oposite lock full sideways. thats not fast, its extremely slow. but it makes for a fun time, and can build skills in controling a car.

FC Drifter

wait a minute i just picked up on somethng.......

.....you dont have a car, or a liscence? youve never gripped or drifted? how old are you? you must be like 15 or something. listen kid, you just admitted to being a magazine racer, desktop warrior, bench racer, whatever you want to call it. it doesnt work like that. no matter how much the numbers and physics makes sense in your head, behind the wheel on the track its a whole new ballgame. you cant sit and read about how each technique works and then know its going to on a track. bottom line is, drivers and cars cant keep up with the idea thats goin on in your head. several times ive been out on the streets or on a track and said" yeah i can take that corner at X mph if i braker here, put it in this gear and accelerate like this" only to have it not work in a fury of rubber smoke and dust. it just doent work like that. the perfect line doesnt exist, man cannot attain it. there are too many variables that can throw a car off the perfect way through a corner. therefore, the perfect drift, is even more unobtainable. the pitch of the car being at the perfect degree, the braking zone, the turn in, all that. its just too much for a human being, prone to making mistakes, to cope with. when you start driving youll understand this. until then, keep playing Final Fantasy 7 or something.

peejay

EXACTLY.

I remember one time I got it so right... I was pulling in to a rest stop on the interstate. The ground was covered with ice and snow on top so this doesn't really count as drifting, but I turned a little too hard to the right to get onto the off ramp, back end swings left, overcorrected and the back end went to the right...

>Hmm, I'm going sideways and going in the right direction... let's have some fun!<

Somehow hold the car sliding sideways, right opposite lock, carefully modulating the throttle. I have to make a quick right and left turn to get to the parking lot. I let off at just the right time (how did I know? i didn't, really, it was blind luck) and the back tires grabbed and sent the back end around the other way. Little throttle and let off, back end swings around back the other way and I'm in the packing lot. Grab handbrake and slide into a parking space.

DAMN I wish I had my in-car turned on

I've always played around in the rain and the snow like this, especially in my first car. Why? It's FUN AS HELL. Of course, I won't pretend to have the ability to consistently do any drifting on dry pavement... but my favorite months of the year are the winter months

kristopher_d

Experience is very important. There are two types of experience though. First hand experience is gained in great quantities when you do it right, and in greater quantities when you do it wrong. Second hand experience is gained from reading, talking to, and studying those who have already gained the first hand experience. Don't discount the importance of books and magazines. The greater understanding of the governing principles one often times acquires from his studies improves his ability to learn skills while driving.

PureSephiroth

I said i didn't want to argue but this is just crap. I find it really funny that people yell at new people because they don't search, but then people go and respond to topics without reading the whole thing. I have already stated twice that the perfect line is un attainable and i also later stated that you're trying to get as close to the fastest line and technique possible. I also stated that I was well aware the you won't see pro's drifting because its risky, its difficult and it kills tires. You just keep ignoring physics and saying you can't do it you can't do it. That's bullshit. Physics don't lie and call me whatever the hell you want. I am 15. I haven't raced, that's why i study racing. You keep denying sheer numbers. You can mathematically prove that drift is faster in a number of tight corners. I keep giving the basic version of it over and over but no-one seems to read those posts. NUMBERS DON'T LIE. I also appreciate how you try insulting me for my age and say, " untill then go play FF7 or something" Well I puposely am getting started early in the game and if you can't deal with younger people disagreeing with you then don't respond to a topic.

I suppose you could drift an entire course but only if you were showing off. Drifting does not have to be like that! If you go and read my previous posts you can find a practicall use for drifting.

Just because you grip or you dislike drift or whatever reason, doesn't mean you should just completely ignore reasonable argument. Do I have to do a freakin mathematical proof? I post completely legitimate explinations of why drift can be used to get BETTER times. All of the evidence that i have provided at least have some sort of mathematic credibility. Think about it for a minute and ask yourself why or how could drift be faster than grip, in any case whatsoever. If you think about the whole situation logically and don't just make assumptions on this and that i'm sure you can think of several instances where drift would be faster than grip. It's really sad how people fail to even aknowledge logic.

Now after being called so many things and being insulted for being something so unintentional as being young I am determined to prove a situation where drift is faster than grip. I need the following info. If anyone wants to put my theory to the test i'll try my hardest to give absolute proof of a corner where drift is faster than grip. All the numbers all the calculations, everything. I need statistics on these things. Lets do it on a stock series 5 TII

Wieght
Balance of weight over axels
Skid Pad numbers, g force
0-60 time
0-100 time
60-0 time
100-0 time
suspension ratios i.e. 150 lbs of resistance per inch compressed. (imaginative number there)
Boost patterns and power band numbers
(where is the power at on the tach and how much is there)
60-0 using only engine slowdown would be helpful but not necessary
Any sort of traction acceleration or decceleration numbers would be helpful.

Put your money where your mouth is and put it to a test against the real numbers. I'm not just shouting crap. Try me.

I'm not directing this whole thing towards you FC Drifter, I DID read your whole post and i read how you said even though the numbers make sense it doesn't always work. But sometimes it comes close enough to being perfect that you do get a little more speed. And for eveyone else that said i'm wrong, that's while i'll prove my self either right, or wrong. Just give me the numbers.

P.S. I really hate arguing with people on this forum and i appologize for my hostile words earlier but i do not regret them. Everyone's information should be aknowledged as long as it seems legitimate. Even if they ARE 15!

PureSephiroth

Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank youThank you Thank you

FC Drifter

i still think youre confused here. dont confuse a car getting sideways or a little crooked with a drift. there is a big difference between sliding and drifting. im sick of people saying they drifted every time their car gets a little out of shape. drifting is not a technique used in raceing. drifting an entire style of driving.

all ages and research aside, i think you are referring to something that is already in use by many race drivers. you say that a car coming in way too hot in a corner should swing the tail around as it enters the corner and then accelerate through the apex and out of the corner. this is a technique called trail brakinging. it is not drifting, its nowhere near true drifting as you think it is. it uses the cars own sideways attitude to scrub off enough speed to make the corner. that is what you describe and it is not drifting.

the bottom line is that in order for a car to get fast lap times it needs to be always doing one thing, accelerating. minimizing time spent braking and turning is how a car goes fast on a track. when a car is sliding, especialy in a drift situation, it is not accelerating. also it prolongs the time spent braking or turning. this is why sliding is slower than gripping. when a car is sideways it cant efficiently brake or accelerate. thus making for slower times. its the simple physics you speak of. the tires can only do so much at one time before they loose their usefulness. when a tire is broken of its traction, less of it can be used for anything else, like turning and accelerating. there are so few situations where a slide could result in a faster time that its not worth the risk or effort to execute a slide. drifting, which is a controled prolonged slide around the entire course, is much much slower and has no place in a race environment. if one was to start actaualy drifting on a course with other cars present, the driver would probably be kicked out of the race for driving recklessly or something...( i actualy called Road Atlanta to see if they would let me come out and drift at one of their open track days and they told me that if it endagered the saftey of the other drivers or spectators i would be asked to leave the track)...as far as mathmatical proof, i cannot argue with that. my math skills are way below average. what i know and say is what i gained from driving and experimenting on the track and street. i dont make assumptions about driving, i speak from what i know.

if sliding a car was faster in any situation. youd see it in top racing series. with racing like formula 1, where billions are spent in R&D in making cars faster, im sure they have looked at driving techniques to improve times and speed. but you dont see formula 1 drivers ever sliding do you? like i said, there are so few situations where a sliding car can be faster that its not worth the slide. the gains are too small. i dont like arguing on the internet much either but i find myself doing it more and more these days. i may just break my computer and not get another one, just to keep from being tempted.

gen2ForCe

what are u basing all this on? high school math and phsyics? im jus wondering...becuase u got a whole lot of math classes n science classes ahead of u..n do remember that high school math is mostly theory not pratical....n does not accoutn for anything but im interested in seeing your calculations so someone give him the times and numbers haha:-D gotta resolve this somehow...and int eh end do remember it will b diff behidn the wheel;-D haha no matter what the numbers say..the world isnt all numbers...it aint all black n white...its a lot of grey to:-D

gen2ForCe

^ thats just my 2 cents haah dont yell at me..i dont wanan get into the argument just dropping my dime:-D