Looking for R+D testers for Defined Auto promo headers
12-31-10, 01:59 PM
#51
I'm curious as to why you specify you must have an ECU. I'm running SCCA Nationals with a 13B using a Weber 48 IDA and a 1st Gen distributor. 3 years ago I showed 200 rwhp with this set up and tuned it using afr, egt and jetting to get the most out of my particular setup. It may be easier to tune with and ECU, but it is not the only viable alternative. The motor was built by Jesse Prather and has the maximun porting legal for SCCA. It has an RB header into a 3" exhaust with a Magnaflow 4" muffler. If I give you my intake measurement, are you able to give me some assurance that I will see significant measurable gains, given the limitations of SCCA rules?
12-31-10, 05:10 PM
#52
I'm curious as to why you specify you must have an ECU. I'm running SCCA Nationals with a 13B using a Weber 48 IDA and a 1st Gen distributor. 3 years ago I showed 200 rwhp with this set up and tuned it using afr, egt and jetting to get the most out of my particular setup. It may be easier to tune with and ECU, but it is not the only viable alternative. The motor was built by Jesse Prather and has the maximun porting legal for SCCA. It has an RB header into a 3" exhaust with a Magnaflow 4" muffler. If I give you my intake measurement, are you able to give me some assurance that I will see significant measurable gains, given the limitations of SCCA rules?
12-31-10, 05:24 PM
#53
Ordinarily I would just keep my mouth shut, but a couple of comments that are being repeated quite often are bothering me.I am not going to say anything about the performance of one header vs another, because honestly thats the kind of BS I expect on HondaForums. However, here are some things that might help you-
321 SS bends are closer to 35.00 each for 90deg, cost per bend goes down if you buy in bulk of course. Telling people who know better they are $70 a bend really hurts your credibility with these people. Somone like Karack, whose posts I follow here and there as someone who, like you, is involved in the rotary community and has a business serving it, could really help you sell these things. Treating him and the rest of us who know better like an idiot and artificially inflating the value is not going to help.
If your spending 8 hours welding the above header there may be an issue in your process. A simple jig, which I am ASSuming you made prior to considering even low volume production, would cut fab time down to about 4 hours or so, ASSuming you have a good band saw or similar to do your cuts and a "cut pattern" for making sure the cuts are made quickly/accurately. Obviously you will havemore time in the prototype and making the jigs etc, but that cannot be helped and is the cost of doing business.
Also, stop bashing Chinese made products. Obviously the RB product is a nice piece and it has development behind it to work on a wide variety of cars. Consistently telling people it sucks probably works against you.
Now I am going to STFU again, as I build my own headers and will never sell anythig like what you make, so my opinions as to how good itis or not really do not matter.
321 SS bends are closer to 35.00 each for 90deg, cost per bend goes down if you buy in bulk of course. Telling people who know better they are $70 a bend really hurts your credibility with these people. Somone like Karack, whose posts I follow here and there as someone who, like you, is involved in the rotary community and has a business serving it, could really help you sell these things. Treating him and the rest of us who know better like an idiot and artificially inflating the value is not going to help.
If your spending 8 hours welding the above header there may be an issue in your process. A simple jig, which I am ASSuming you made prior to considering even low volume production, would cut fab time down to about 4 hours or so, ASSuming you have a good band saw or similar to do your cuts and a "cut pattern" for making sure the cuts are made quickly/accurately. Obviously you will havemore time in the prototype and making the jigs etc, but that cannot be helped and is the cost of doing business.
Also, stop bashing Chinese made products. Obviously the RB product is a nice piece and it has development behind it to work on a wide variety of cars. Consistently telling people it sucks probably works against you.
Now I am going to STFU again, as I build my own headers and will never sell anythig like what you make, so my opinions as to how good itis or not really do not matter.
I never try to make anyone look like an idiot. Sorry you feel that way. If you do not like the product or the price, then sorry it's not right for you.
12-31-10, 08:04 PM
#54
Im not so sure what every one is upset about. The RB header has it's place, it does it's job perfectly well. I hope Racing Beat sells thousands more headers. We are also not trying to be condescending. If you have an RB header and like it thats fine, not every one wants or needs every last power.
As far as accusing us of how much we pay for materials, that's low. Call our suppliers and you will hear them tell you the same prices we quoted.
Now it all comes down to a very simple principle. A cheap header does not do what ours does, it's not supposed to. No we do not think you are stupid or any thing for using another header, everything has it's use and place.
Finally if you don't like our product or price, just move on. It's no big deal if it's not for you, not everything appeals to every one.
Thanks
As far as accusing us of how much we pay for materials, that's low. Call our suppliers and you will hear them tell you the same prices we quoted.
Now it all comes down to a very simple principle. A cheap header does not do what ours does, it's not supposed to. No we do not think you are stupid or any thing for using another header, everything has it's use and place.
Finally if you don't like our product or price, just move on. It's no big deal if it's not for you, not everything appeals to every one.
Thanks
01-02-11, 11:09 AM
#55
GTORX7., I like your quote...
So one way to look at this deal is, you are offering a header with a $300 discount ($800 regular - sale price $500). That's $300 left over to cover the tuning and dyno time.
You're offering a money back guarantee. But you want proof that it can't make more horsepower. And the only way to quantify the power change is with a dyno before and after. I guess, like with any deal, the fine print of the guarantee puts the ownous on the customer to pay for the dyno runs, if they want to collect on the guarantee. If they don't do the dyno time, they can't claim the guarantee, right?
I think it is in your best interest to do the dyno runs, because if this thing performs as expected, you're gonna say "Wow, I wish I knew how much of a differnce this is making." And then you'll have to put you old system back on to see how bad it was.
Unbolt the header from our 230rwhp 13b, and put on a Racing Beat "years proven" header and it will drop 30hp
You're offering a money back guarantee. But you want proof that it can't make more horsepower. And the only way to quantify the power change is with a dyno before and after. I guess, like with any deal, the fine print of the guarantee puts the ownous on the customer to pay for the dyno runs, if they want to collect on the guarantee. If they don't do the dyno time, they can't claim the guarantee, right?
I think it is in your best interest to do the dyno runs, because if this thing performs as expected, you're gonna say "Wow, I wish I knew how much of a differnce this is making." And then you'll have to put you old system back on to see how bad it was.
01-02-11, 12:38 PM
#56
The Big Ugly!
I'm not too sure why people are so caught up on the price of this header. If you don't like the price or can not afford it then don't buy it, it's real simple. Most good turbo manifolds will run you $600 to past $1000 using less material to make, you get what you pay for in the end. Both the header & a turbo mani require R&D, material cost & labor, so not really all that outrageously priced when compared. Sounds like they are offering a product in which they claim is superior to others on the market. On a side note paying for the dyno, maybe something can be done here. Maybe customer pays for the after & the before header install is on the shop. IMHO the shop is trying to prove the increase in power over others so they will need a baseline to compare to & after would be like any other up grade a customer would want to tune his car after installing a new mod cost on him. It would be nice to see some results on some customer cars if this pans out.
01-02-11, 01:02 PM
#57
i just think it would have been better to tune and test on your own and jot down your gains over the other manifold suppliers. that was the biggest reason i see for the negative response is that many people know how much it costs to swap manifolds and tune a car on the rollers, unless the person owns a dyno facility and tunes on their own it just isn't cost effective unless they know that there will be gains made.
this product does have it's place for the "all motor" guys who have deep pockets(would have gotten a better reception in the naturally aspirated forums or race car forums), for the most part i just see the general FC public gawking at the price versus horsepower gains which at this point is still in the air.
on a side note, i wouldn't condescend the RB chinese cast/forged products too much when you are using their flanges.
this product does have it's place for the "all motor" guys who have deep pockets(would have gotten a better reception in the naturally aspirated forums or race car forums), for the most part i just see the general FC public gawking at the price versus horsepower gains which at this point is still in the air.
on a side note, i wouldn't condescend the RB chinese cast/forged products too much when you are using their flanges.
01-02-11, 02:04 PM
#58
I have to laugh a bit at all the "it's cheaper to do a TII swap" guys. Not all of us can or want to run a turbo setup! It's not legal for my class of racing.
Not sure this header would make more power than my RotaryShack header but it's tempting to find out. Too bad it would require me welding a flange onto this header so it would mate up with my 3" header-back exhaust, plus the dyno time... it's just not worth the outlay for me. If I had an RB setup I would strongly consider it.
Not sure this header would make more power than my RotaryShack header but it's tempting to find out. Too bad it would require me welding a flange onto this header so it would mate up with my 3" header-back exhaust, plus the dyno time... it's just not worth the outlay for me. If I had an RB setup I would strongly consider it.
01-02-11, 02:22 PM
#59
I have to laugh a bit at all the "it's cheaper to do a TII swap" guys. Not all of us can or want to run a turbo setup! It's not legal for my class of racing.
Not sure this header would make more power than my RotaryShack header but it's tempting to find out. Too bad it would require me welding a flange onto this header so it would mate up with my 3" header-back exhaust, plus the dyno time... it's just not worth the outlay for me. If I had an RB setup I would strongly consider it.
Not sure this header would make more power than my RotaryShack header but it's tempting to find out. Too bad it would require me welding a flange onto this header so it would mate up with my 3" header-back exhaust, plus the dyno time... it's just not worth the outlay for me. If I had an RB setup I would strongly consider it.
01-02-11, 05:14 PM
#60
I don't think the price is outrageous. Before I knew how to TIG weld, I spent $500 on materials and welding costs to build my own 321 manifold for my turbo setup - I cut and fit the tubes together.
I plan on working with these guys to build a 6 port E-Production header for my SCCA race car. In my case, it will be more of an R+D effort, and it will be collaborative - so the above price does not apply. However, I chose Defined Autoworks because of the meticulous approach to testing that they have.
I know from experience how much time and testing was put into the header that was mentioned earlier - and I was shocked at how much more horsepower he made over what was previously in there. After witnessing this process, I am not surprised that he can make the claim, "you will make more horsepower."
I plan on working with these guys to build a 6 port E-Production header for my SCCA race car. In my case, it will be more of an R+D effort, and it will be collaborative - so the above price does not apply. However, I chose Defined Autoworks because of the meticulous approach to testing that they have.
I know from experience how much time and testing was put into the header that was mentioned earlier - and I was shocked at how much more horsepower he made over what was previously in there. After witnessing this process, I am not surprised that he can make the claim, "you will make more horsepower."
01-02-11, 07:16 PM
#61
The Big Ugly!
01-02-11, 11:43 PM
#63
Basically it seems to me like there is a header known to produce more power on a highly modified 4 port street port yet no information on how the header works on a stock 6 port, or a ported 6 port. As these happen to be more common you would think that its a better way to go.
However instead of doing the work themselves they are farming out the work to their customers. Sure the customer gets a deal, but he is still taking in that it works. Even if he returns the header because it makes less power he is still out the dyno time.
01-03-11, 05:50 AM
#64
I never dynoed it with anything other than the exhaust I have on it now... RS header to two cats, a resonator and a muffler, 3" all the way back.
01-03-11, 08:59 AM
#65
But what was previously in there was in no way designed to work with his porting system, his 4 port system, his non usdm motor, or his shorter intake manifold. So OF COURSE his 'meticulously fiddled with' header is going to make a substantial amount more.
Basically it seems to me like there is a header known to produce more power on a highly modified 4 port street port yet no information on how the header works on a stock 6 port, or a ported 6 port. As these happen to be more common you would think that its a better way to go.
However instead of doing the work themselves they are farming out the work to their customers. Sure the customer gets a deal, but he is still taking in that it works. Even if he returns the header because it makes less power he is still out the dyno time.
Basically it seems to me like there is a header known to produce more power on a highly modified 4 port street port yet no information on how the header works on a stock 6 port, or a ported 6 port. As these happen to be more common you would think that its a better way to go.
However instead of doing the work themselves they are farming out the work to their customers. Sure the customer gets a deal, but he is still taking in that it works. Even if he returns the header because it makes less power he is still out the dyno time.
01-03-11, 03:16 PM
#67
im not diggin the welds...can we please get them to look better with more color 
like....
Attachment 415211
Attachment 415212
like....Attachment 415211
Attachment 415212
01-03-11, 03:47 PM
#68
Everyone wants free stuff... especially 99% of the people that play with 2nd gen cars (i.e. those people that don't race) because the FC caters to an audience that typically doesn't have much money to play with. Problem is, nothing good is ever free.
Again, I don't think what these guys are proposing is such a bad deal.
01-03-11, 06:21 PM
#69
MECP Certified Installer
This is right on. Everything is a compromise. I had to have my header built so it would bolt up to the stock pre-cat on my S5 (two cats - not like the S4 with three cats) and so it is too short for the RPM that my motor sees (under 8500). But it was a requirement so I had to live with it.
Everyone wants free stuff... especially 99% of the people that play with 2nd gen cars (i.e. those people that don't race) because the FC caters to an audience that typically doesn't have much money to play with. Problem is, nothing good is ever free.
Again, I don't think what these guys are proposing is such a bad deal.
Everyone wants free stuff... especially 99% of the people that play with 2nd gen cars (i.e. those people that don't race) because the FC caters to an audience that typically doesn't have much money to play with. Problem is, nothing good is ever free.
Again, I don't think what these guys are proposing is such a bad deal.
Not taking sides, just expressing my perception of why there is so much negative sentiment being generated.
01-03-11, 07:08 PM
#70
im not diggin the welds...can we please get them to look better with more color like....
Attachment 415211
Attachment 415212
like....Attachment 415211
Attachment 415212
Come over to our shop and polish the tubes before we weld them, and more color will be there! Have any pics of inconel welds? That is what our header in the first pic was made of 
01-03-11, 08:31 PM
#71
Rotorhead
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 0
Received 39 Likes
on
33 Posts
LOL at this thread.
OK, here it is from somebody who (thank God) is not in the automotive business and therefore has nothing to gain from bullshitting you guys:
- Yes, 321 stainless steel is worth the extra money. It is a stabilized titanium alloy. The cheaper 304 grade works OK for cooler parts of the exhaust system, such as the mufflers.
- Inconel welds have a dirty-looking skin. That's just how they are.
- Yes, the Racing Beat header is ironically not sized per their performance guidance.
- I spent over $2,700 on the custom stainless steel exhaust system for my car, so I'm not sure what everybody is complaining about. High-quality custom-made parts simply cost more than generic mass-production parts.
- It would be nice if the vendor offers some exhaust system advice so that those who purchase this header can get the most out of it. For example, it would be nice to cover slip joints, hangars, recommended pipe length and diameter, maybe some muffler recommendations, etc.
OK, I think that covers everything that I wanted to comment on.
OK, here it is from somebody who (thank God) is not in the automotive business and therefore has nothing to gain from bullshitting you guys:
- Yes, 321 stainless steel is worth the extra money. It is a stabilized titanium alloy. The cheaper 304 grade works OK for cooler parts of the exhaust system, such as the mufflers.
- Inconel welds have a dirty-looking skin. That's just how they are.
- Yes, the Racing Beat header is ironically not sized per their performance guidance.
- I spent over $2,700 on the custom stainless steel exhaust system for my car, so I'm not sure what everybody is complaining about. High-quality custom-made parts simply cost more than generic mass-production parts.
- It would be nice if the vendor offers some exhaust system advice so that those who purchase this header can get the most out of it. For example, it would be nice to cover slip joints, hangars, recommended pipe length and diameter, maybe some muffler recommendations, etc.
OK, I think that covers everything that I wanted to comment on.
01-03-11, 09:40 PM
#72
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: az
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sch40 stainless steel
thanks i can weld inconel and Ti both with remarkable welds...and im not even that good compared to my friends in the manifold industry...ie CTD, full race, afi turbo, etc...
i can weld inconel and Ti both with remarkable welds...and im not even that good compared to my friends in the manifold industry...ie CTD, full race, afi turbo, etc...
01-04-11, 03:43 PM
#73
- It would be nice if the vendor offers some exhaust system advice so that those who purchase this header can get the most out of it. For example, it would be nice to cover slip joints, hangars, recommended pipe length and diameter, maybe some muffler recommendations, etc.
OK, I think that covers everything that I wanted to comment on.
OK, I think that covers everything that I wanted to comment on.
We gladly provide our recommendations on the rest of the exhaust in PM's based on the particular chassis setup. So anyone who buys one, is getting all the information we know.
01-07-11, 12:26 AM
#74
Here are some pics of our hand built collector that is on each of our headers sold. This version is for a 12a, 13b is similar just slightly larger throat diameter. I think this helps convey the differences of our collectors vs. any other header available.
Last edited by GtoRx7.; 01-07-11 at 12:29 AM.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post