FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

When we made 185 to the wheels originally. The 185 was a basic street port, rb header, and the rest of the typical mods people do. Slow is relative, of course a turbo will make more power, and we are not trying to compete against a turbo. The 230 at the wheels has never been done before with a street port n/a 13b. This header is far from muffler shop straight pipe, some people want the most out of n/a performance. To you n/a might be slow and a waste but not to every one. My first rx7 (n/a fc 6 port) made 112whp, and it was all stock. I would have spent the money to bump up to 230whp, if n/a is what I was into.

just startn

iTrader: (33)

I think the website needs to be up and running bc im sure ppl are clicking on the website link. Another thing i believe is your making a product Very few are interested in b/c out of this community there isn't enough people that are racing in a class and need every HP they can get to be top of the class if that makes sence. Usually the people looking for every HP and are at the top of the class are little shops like Defined Auto and im sure many of them "big dogs" dont come on this forum. Logan and the crew do awesome work but i think this is far fetched. I also think the turbo manifolds are $$$ for what they are but im not bashing the product its my personal belief.

FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

Ya, the web site is on it's way. We hope to have it up within the next month, but were not making it so we will see. Everyone has an opinion on prices, and the project really does dictate what some one will pay.

I can say though you don't get stuff like this for cheap. This is essentially a 3 rotor version of what the 2 rotor guys will get. The original 2 rotor header developed these headers. China don't build this stuff.

thejallenator

iTrader: (14)

i thought torque was the big number. not horsepower. but what do i know

in the first picture posted with the 2 3-rotor headers whats the deal witht he bottom one? the front two pipes join then separate then join back to the 3rd one at the end of the header.

SirCygnus

iTrader: (1)

are you going to sell the porting templates and the modified intake manifolds as well so other people can reach these horse power numbers?

FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

They don't join, it's just an illusion in the picture from the crazy bends.

FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

Yep, we sell all the stuff individually or as a set. Of course with every engine on the planet no two are exactly the same, thats why we base the length of the intake manifold along with header length to the specific engine.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

hp is torque over time, so they are kind of the same thing. more tq = more hp

OSO

Reading through the thread the dyno is from I noticed the engine that made that power was a n/a 13b-re would a normal S5 13b be just as capable (I'd assume no chance with a stock compression street ported S4 13B)? Forgive the noobness.

farberio

iTrader: (7)

You will need more then just the porting templates to reach their numbers. You also need to shorten the intake runners and do some machining to the rotors.

FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

Were not guaranteeing people to make 230whp with our header, we are guaranteeing a nice increase of power over what some one all ready has. You can certainly do allot with a header properly matched to an engine, and intake. The set-up documented is some thing we wanted to be relatively inexpensive to recreate. You would have to talk to Logan about the six port engine. I know Logan is working on a six port set-up because e production scca guys have to run them.

Akagis_white_comet

iTrader: (4)

Gotta agree with the general consensus on this one. I've seen some of Logan's work before and it looks well made, but this challenge/deal/whatever is asking a LOT.

If the normal price is $750-800 and the discounted price is $480-580, the difference is $220-270. When I talked to Logan over the summer and he said that a customer expecting tuning to be done in 8 dyno hours was unrealistic, I had to agree with him based on the complexity of the task. Factor in an average dyno rate of $100 per hour (RX7store's rate) and you end up with a minimum $800 fee to get a $270 discount on a part. And if no more power is found as a result, that means the customer has to get their car re-tuned again, footing the bill themselves for it in addition. Doesn't exactly sound like a great deal.

In the interest of progress and giving Defined Autoworks a hand in return for all the help I've received, what I'd suggest is to take a close look at how K&N does their intake kit development. How they do it is to offer a free intake kit in exchange for borrowing a vehicle to develop it on. That includes the shop footing the bill for dyno time/tuning to produce actual numbers.

I'm sure that if you blend the two approaches together (using a blendtec blender) you'll get more people interested in participating in this R&D Project. Plus, a N/A 13b is already a torqueless wonder. Wanting even less torque is more of a honda thing

GtoRx7.

iTrader: (12)

Late to this party, but it looks like Matt (Fdwarrior) has been answering questions.

First off, the thread is a bit mis-worded. Reading back it sounds like we are wanting people to test our unknown products and we reap the benefits. This as stated, is far from the case.

I also made the mistake thinking pretty much everyone knew who we were. Defined Autoworks has been a forum vendor in the past, for a couple years. We have been in business for 5 years. So its still a bit surprising how many never heard of us, but I am excited to make ourselves better known.

We have always been founded on the belief of "no secrets" when doing development and racing. That is why we show our dyno charts, sell our exact porting templates, and every part we make is available to anyone.

Information on these headers more in depth-

Yes our headers are built with 321 stainless. Heat retention is #2 on the scale. 304 wrapped is not the same difference. #1 is durability. 304 when exposed to rotary heat will fatigue and eventually crack. 321 stainless is going to take the 1600 degree + temps and not fail over a few years.


Built custom based off porting style, and intake manifold length. Over the years we have done massive testing, and found the ideal length ratio to make the broadest and higest torque curve. Using this known math ratio, we build headers to have the same powerful "resonation" on any type of n/a rotary. We are interested in seeing how much more power testers will get.

We have not had the time to test EVERY type of rotary. There are so many types of porting, compresson and intake styles in the world. This is where I consider our offer to fall into "R+D". There will be some variables I cannot account for. I am confident everyone will see a good gain. A stock engine will see the least amount of gain. They are far less sensitive than a high overlap engine. Some high overlap, higher rpm engines could see a increase 35-40hp
This is power gained over another header. Not power gained from a stock cast iron manifold.

Proven
We are not saying "hey bolt this on and make 230rwhp". We are simply supplying you with a HUGE variable taken care of in the world of high power. The exhaust is responsible for the largest gains on any n/a rotary. Some people may make more than 230 wheel using our header.

We are not proclaiming to know the 100% perfect header for each engine. I am proclaiming it will be better than anything else you can purchase. Both in durability and performance

If its too much money, fine. I will not be offended if you choose not to purchase one.

FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

Once again this is not a become a guinea pig thing, but a challenge. We miss-communicated what we were getting at. If you just decided to buy a header for your car under normal circumstances you would have to do all of the tuning stuff any way, that is a given. What we decided to do was say to the people looking to upgrade for more power "try or header, we will give you a discount in return for publishing your results, if not satisfied you get your money back". If we were trying to develop new products of course we would not require people to pay for every thing, we are saying buy our stuff instead of the other guy's stuff. It's like a tire contingency for auto-cross, you run lets say BF-goodrich stickers and win(with us winning=making more power), and then you get a good discount. Here we are offering your money back if you are unsatisfied, and offering the discount up front.

GtoRx7.

iTrader: (12)

A great header will produce more torque, not less. Tuning a n/a car that was already runing and tuned, for the change of a header will be a 1 hour job. I quote 4 hours to tuning a turbo rotary that has never been tuned before. Another 4 hours is needed for turbo guys wanting to increase the boost and hit a desired "higher" limit of the system.

So $100- $140 to re-tune the vehicle. I am okay with someone just tossing it on there and running our header without tuning. But how can I give a money back promise of more power if it wasnt re-tuned? I would be setting myself up for failure.

dj55b

iTrader: (2)

Just a quick comment on the tuning:
You don't get your car re-tuned, you just upload one of your old maps in ... its not that complicated. The more you've played around with tuning, the quicker you get with it. For me anytime I make a change as far as power wise go, it takes maybe 2 hours tops to get it going at pretty much maximum efficiency.

kuro

I autocross in Upstate New York, let me know if you want to sponsor me.

GtoRx7.

iTrader: (12)

PM me with your details. Thanks

jjwalker

I like that you are doing this project, I do admire the work.

But..

From an engineering standpoint, I see bends and all sorts of restrictions. Is this to keep the factory cat location or to make the tubes of certain length. I would understand it if you where making a bolt on header.

And of course, A header designed specifically for THE car it is getting placed onto is the "perfect header". That takes all of the flow dynamics of that specific motor into account, but has to be custom made. I Got that. It is unrealistic to tailor a header for each and every car it is placed on, not mass production and business wise anyway.

I, personally, would find a middle ground in the math and make the tubes as straight as possible. I would then flare the outlet for welding either at home or at a muffler shop. This is assuming we are deleting the stock cat from the equation. Gas flow through some of those angled pipes would take exhaustive work to calculate, and would never be exact.

I am not asking for design specs, I just want to know what the purpose is. Like I said before, I am not knocking off or trying to dilute your products, but if you could explain some of the reasoning of the design.

GtoRx7.

iTrader: (12)

Depends on which header you are speaking of.

The two rotor header- picture is on the first page, and has one set of bends on the second rotor.

(a) Both primary tubes equal length.

(b) The bends are as broad of a curve possible and still fit in the engine bay.

(c) Receive a 2"+ straight out of the engine before the bends to help further promote good initial flow.

(d) Has to be the proven length and collect together. Does not require the same room for a large muffler like the 20b version

Now on the 3 rotor header (one with a lot of bends)-

The design was complex.

(A) It had to leave clearance for semi p-port or full p-port usage. This meant the header could not "wrap up" next to the engine. The height had to be left low.

(B) Needed to be a set primary tube length that was found for best power.

(C) Distance between rotor 1 and rotor 3 is much larger than a 2 rotor. ALL headers should be collected to make high power. So they have to meet equally at the end.

(D) Lastly, I wanted to leave room for a large center muffler under the chassis.

Ironically even though a lot of bends is far from ideal, the science of a header and its purpose is not always about the least restriction. A good example is that the 2 rotor header (which is VERY straight compared to our 3 rotor header) makes the same relative hp with the same relative engine setup. Except 50% higher on a 3 rotor due to obvious displacement. I cannot always explain the whys and hows. But I have found the gains from being correct in length outweigh being straight with less restricion. Even up to 10,500 rpm aka...... lots of flow

87pyro3

Ok guys. Not here to bash on product but to simply ask another side to the equation ??????

Ok so u ,ake and match the perfect header for our particular engine ....
Great wat about the rest of the exhaust
Building a high power monster takes a lot more time and consideration into the exhaust than just the header
Sure some noob could push out the money buy ur header and throw some restrictive muffler on ther and not see a bit of gain
Wat are you doing to calculate the rest of the problem ???
Sure based on our intake and exhaust ports u can build the " best custom header "
But how are u accounting for wat could b done after the header ??????

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

most companies do their own R+D, if you offer items up for the community to test then they should be offered at a real reasonable discount. you're not offering to pay them back for their tuning time or dyno fees after all.. it's nice to see more companies put forth the effort to do it but all i am seeing here is some windy pipes welded together, if there was any research that went into designing them then it shouldn't be up to regular people to figure out the dyno numbers.

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

I believe the major misunderstanding here is that there was no R+D done on these products and that the company is attempting to outsource this task to customers; for which they understandably expect to be compensated.

It would appear the headers have been designed based on a particular setup(s) and shown to provide a significant power increase for that setup. There is a certain understandable curiosity as to how applicable those gains are to the myriad of other setups out there. Compared to a stock setup, it would obviously be substantial , however the incremental improvement over another aftermarket header is most likely going to be small for all but dedicated race setups when compared to the incremental price increase. This simply does not appeal to the vast majority of FC enthusiasts who are infamously miserly.

The positioning of this testing inquiry as an "offer", understandably evokes expectations of prices low enough to motivate people who weren't even necessarily in the market to purchase the product. Had this thread had a more accurate title ....
"We are somewhat interested in seeing how our product will perform on various setups, if you were already in the market for a header to maximize power we encourage you to consider our product, a discount commiserate with our level of interest will be offered in exchange your your assistance."

much confusion could have been avoided.

GtoRx7.

iTrader: (12)

After the header definitely has a effect you are correct. But it is not as detrimental. It is also much easier to get perfect. I have found 2.5" from the header back with one or two 2.5" mufflers is perfect. A restrictive muffler isn't always a bad thing. When we get a customer who is purchasing a header, we go over all the details and see what exhaust system they are running. Then advise them what small changes might be needed to see the highest power.

I am offering at a real reasonable discount. 321 stainless is $75 per bend, then add flange cost, and over 8 hours of labor. At $500 a piece we are not making a profit. There has been tons of R+D, and plenty of research. Poor wording on my part has caused much confusion. Its more than windy pipes welded together when you are producing the power numbers we are. Unbolt the header from our 230rwhp 13b, and put on a Racing Beat "years proven" header and it will drop 30hp. I would say our header is in another league to do that.

You are very right. Live and learn. I made a major mistake in wording. Cant go back and fix it now, just clarify it the best I can.

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

Ordinarily I would just keep my mouth shut, but a couple of comments that are being repeated quite often are bothering me.I am not going to say anything about the performance of one header vs another, because honestly thats the kind of BS I expect on HondaForums. However, here are some things that might help you-

321 SS bends are closer to 35.00 each for 90deg, cost per bend goes down if you buy in bulk of course. Telling people who know better they are $70 a bend really hurts your credibility with these people. Somone like Karack, whose posts I follow here and there as someone who, like you, is involved in the rotary community and has a business serving it, could really help you sell these things. Treating him and the rest of us who know better like an idiot and artificially inflating the value is not going to help.

If your spending 8 hours welding the above header there may be an issue in your process. A simple jig, which I am ASSuming you made prior to considering even low volume production, would cut fab time down to about 4 hours or so, ASSuming you have a good band saw or similar to do your cuts and a "cut pattern" for making sure the cuts are made quickly/accurately. Obviously you will havemore time in the prototype and making the jigs etc, but that cannot be helped and is the cost of doing business.

Also, stop bashing Chinese made products. Obviously the RB product is a nice piece and it has development behind it to work on a wide variety of cars. Consistently telling people it sucks probably works against you.

Now I am going to STFU again, as I build my own headers and will never sell anythig like what you make, so my opinions as to how good itis or not really do not matter.