Larger secondaries, tuning trouble with SAFC.
#1
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
Larger secondaries, tuning trouble with SAFC.
Im using 2 injectors from a gslse vehicle. They are posted on this forum as being 680cc but the company who cleaned them for me swore that they are Nippondenso 760cc. Anyways thats not my problem. The problem is Im running wicked rich at wierd rpms.
I have already turned my safc way down. When I first started this yesterday my car would painfully rev past 4 grand. Now the tuning seems to be pretty good on top, but right in the middle is where it gets hairy.
My testing/tuning has consisted of a normal a/f guage and the the way the car feels. I have noticed a lot of bucking and poping out the tail. its running really rich. What I am working on for tuning is this: Cruise in 4th gear at a specified rpm, lift the ebrake and keep pressing the gas pedel. This allows me to floor the car and remain at a specified rpm for tuning. When I do this at 3000 rpms my car bucks fairly after about 50% throttle.
I am affraid of lowering the settings any more on my safc. at 3000 I am already at -15%, 3500 -17% 4000 -21% 8000 -21%. When I didnt have the 680cc my settings were 3000 -3% 4000 -5% 8000 -10% and this was dyno tuned.
How freaking lean do I have to go? and why are the secondaries firing at 3000 rpm? Does the computer depend on airflow percentage and/or 3800 rpms?? Its bizaar.
I have already turned my safc way down. When I first started this yesterday my car would painfully rev past 4 grand. Now the tuning seems to be pretty good on top, but right in the middle is where it gets hairy.
My testing/tuning has consisted of a normal a/f guage and the the way the car feels. I have noticed a lot of bucking and poping out the tail. its running really rich. What I am working on for tuning is this: Cruise in 4th gear at a specified rpm, lift the ebrake and keep pressing the gas pedel. This allows me to floor the car and remain at a specified rpm for tuning. When I do this at 3000 rpms my car bucks fairly after about 50% throttle.
I am affraid of lowering the settings any more on my safc. at 3000 I am already at -15%, 3500 -17% 4000 -21% 8000 -21%. When I didnt have the 680cc my settings were 3000 -3% 4000 -5% 8000 -10% and this was dyno tuned.
How freaking lean do I have to go? and why are the secondaries firing at 3000 rpm? Does the computer depend on airflow percentage and/or 3800 rpms?? Its bizaar.
#2
What mods do you have? I was having the same trouble and it went away by adding fuel. I kept taking more and more away, but it never helped till I added some or actually went just about at 0 most everywhere. I am running like 7.5lbs pretty solidly.
#3
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
If I add fuel the problem gets worse. When I lean it out on the safc the problem gets less and less, but the settings are getting very low.
Mods:
87t2
RB turbo back
stock intake stock filter
fcd
s5 turbo with upgraded compressor (slightly) running 6psi
walbro rewired running 14.4v constant (no switching)
My safc claims about a maximum of 75% airflow.
Mods:
87t2
RB turbo back
stock intake stock filter
fcd
s5 turbo with upgraded compressor (slightly) running 6psi
walbro rewired running 14.4v constant (no switching)
My safc claims about a maximum of 75% airflow.
#6
I really don't know what to tell you. I'd be afraid without even an egt gauge to take out too much fuel. Might be worth the money to get it on a dyno. Better to be safe than sorry.
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#8
Rotary Freak
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Originally posted by 1Revvin7
i thought the s-afc couldn't control anything more than 720's, so if they are really 760s maybe thats ur problem.
i thought the s-afc couldn't control anything more than 720's, so if they are really 760s maybe thats ur problem.
#9
Ya thats very true. Who sold the injectors to you? When they cleaned them, did they blueprint them as well? I mean if they did, and told you what they flow, then thats what they flow and probably what actual injectors they are. What happens with the wrong impedence injectors?
#10
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
Your cars turbo right? How much boost are you running when you are going though your testing?
The bucking at 3000 rpms happens when I am at about 4psi and a bit over half throttle.
Just to let you know I rewired the safc's tps setting to get an actual setting based on foot level. Non of this 100% crap when the trottle is tapped.
#11
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
Who sold the injectors to you? When they cleaned them, did they blueprint them as well? I mean if they did, and told you what they flow, then thats what they flow and probably what actual injectors they are. What happens with the wrong impedence injectors?
#12
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Originally posted by SaabGuy
The bucking at 3000 rpms happens when I am at about 4psi and a bit over half throttle.
Just to let you know I rewired the safc's tps setting to get an actual setting based on foot level. Non of this 100% crap when the trottle is tapped.
The bucking at 3000 rpms happens when I am at about 4psi and a bit over half throttle.
Just to let you know I rewired the safc's tps setting to get an actual setting based on foot level. Non of this 100% crap when the trottle is tapped.
#13
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
then thats what they flow and probably what actual injectors they are.
I really cannot tell how the test was done. Looks like the guy pulsed the injectors with 6milisecond bursts at like a static pressure of 42psi. The 550'c flowed 180cc and the 760's flowed 240cc. It was a pulsing test of some sort.
#14
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
It quite possibly could be just the injectors coming online. What I would do is try to compensate with the AFC and put a little dip in the graph at 3000rpms and then gradually increase the fuel.
#17
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Re: Larger secondaries, tuning trouble with SAFC.
Originally posted by SaabGuy
Im using 2 injectors from a gslse vehicle. They are posted on this forum as being 680cc but the company who cleaned them for me swore that they are Nippondenso 760cc.
Im using 2 injectors from a gslse vehicle. They are posted on this forum as being 680cc but the company who cleaned them for me swore that they are Nippondenso 760cc.
My testing/tuning has consisted of a normal a/f guage and the the way the car feels. I have noticed a lot of bucking and poping out the tail. its running really rich.
What I am working on for tuning is this: Cruise in 4th gear at a specified rpm, lift the ebrake and keep pressing the gas pedel. This allows me to floor the car and remain at a specified rpm for tuning.
I am affraid of lowering the settings any more on my safc. at 3000 I am already at -15%, 3500 -17% 4000 -21% 8000 -21%. When I didnt have the 680cc my settings were 3000 -3% 4000 -5% 8000 -10% and this was dyno tuned.
I really think you should go to a dyno and have it tuned by someone with some experience with the S-AFC.
Last edited by NZConvertible; 11-25-02 at 02:30 AM.
#18
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ya as above there is no need to change the settings under 4000rpm. the bigger injectors arn't even on yet... put the 3000 one back to -5 or where ever you had it. if it still has problems. it's something else. maybe you put the injector wires backwards or something...
and stop doing it the way you are... set it all to 0. it should run just fine like that, just not as fast as when tuned. then you must get some wide band tunning done.
and stop doing it the way you are... set it all to 0. it should run just fine like that, just not as fast as when tuned. then you must get some wide band tunning done.
#19
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
Somthing is definatly wierd with my car. Since I rewired my fuel pump to a constant 14v the car idles rough unless I put the settings at 1000 rpm down to -13%. I'll look into it more tomarrow though.
And yes I put the larger injectors in the secondary fuel rail. Wired everything correctly as well. Im not an idiot. low to mid throttle openings are fine below 4k. its when I go past 1/2 throttle I have problems.
And yes I put the larger injectors in the secondary fuel rail. Wired everything correctly as well. Im not an idiot. low to mid throttle openings are fine below 4k. its when I go past 1/2 throttle I have problems.
Last edited by SaabGuy; 11-25-02 at 09:06 AM.
#20
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
OK I just took my car for another series of tests.
I set the safc to the following;
2000 -3%
3000 +5%
3500 +5%
4000 -16%
The car bucks extremely bad within the 3000-3500 vicinity on these settings. So then I changed the settings to;
2000 -5%
3000 -13%
3500 -14%
4000 -16%
and the bucking almost went away. A/F guage reading full rich with either of the above settings.
*I know people dont like giving safc settings out due to people being stupid, I just want to know if my settings seem at all acurate. The more fuel I give at 3 and 3.5k the worse the bucking gets.
I set the safc to the following;
2000 -3%
3000 +5%
3500 +5%
4000 -16%
The car bucks extremely bad within the 3000-3500 vicinity on these settings. So then I changed the settings to;
2000 -5%
3000 -13%
3500 -14%
4000 -16%
and the bucking almost went away. A/F guage reading full rich with either of the above settings.
*I know people dont like giving safc settings out due to people being stupid, I just want to know if my settings seem at all acurate. The more fuel I give at 3 and 3.5k the worse the bucking gets.
#21
SaabGuy.. Here are my settings and for me they work quite well. But every car is different.
Here are my SAFC settings.. I have 4x720cc injectors, walbor, older HKS front mount, unported motor, stock turbo running 11-12 psi, full 3" exhaust. I have dyno'ed with close to these settings and then have done minor tuning and fine adjustments on the street with my FJO wideband.
Low Throttle 20% High Throttle 60%
HI
1k 0
2k +2
3K +2
4k +1
5K -8
6K -14
7K -20
8K -14
LO
1k -5
2K +5
3K +5
4k +5
5k +2
6k +2
7K +2
8K +2
For me these are pretty safe settings, never really ever see over 11.0 on the wideband and the EGT's are nice. I could lean out the low settings some, but with out being able to control when the secondaries come on, I was going a tad lean before 4K so I have it set a bit rich to make up for it till secondaries come on. Hope this helps a little.. But again, no car is alike.
Here are my SAFC settings.. I have 4x720cc injectors, walbor, older HKS front mount, unported motor, stock turbo running 11-12 psi, full 3" exhaust. I have dyno'ed with close to these settings and then have done minor tuning and fine adjustments on the street with my FJO wideband.
Low Throttle 20% High Throttle 60%
HI
1k 0
2k +2
3K +2
4k +1
5K -8
6K -14
7K -20
8K -14
LO
1k -5
2K +5
3K +5
4k +5
5k +2
6k +2
7K +2
8K +2
For me these are pretty safe settings, never really ever see over 11.0 on the wideband and the EGT's are nice. I could lean out the low settings some, but with out being able to control when the secondaries come on, I was going a tad lean before 4K so I have it set a bit rich to make up for it till secondaries come on. Hope this helps a little.. But again, no car is alike.
#22
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
Nevermind I ******* put the larger injectors into the primary rail.
I love to beat my head against the wall because it feels so good when I stop.
The secondary fuel rail is the longer one right???? I put the injectors into the shorter one.
I love to beat my head against the wall because it feels so good when I stop.
The secondary fuel rail is the longer one right???? I put the injectors into the shorter one.
#23
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Originally posted by SaabGuy
Nevermind I ******* put the larger injectors into the primary rail.
Nevermind I ******* put the larger injectors into the primary rail.
The secondary fuel rail is the longer one right???? I put the injectors into the shorter one.
Take them out and swap them around. Then set your below-3800rpm settings at zero and your above-3800rpm settings at -24%. This should make the car run like stock. Then head to a dyno and have it tuned to maximise power.
#25
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH )
Its soo much better now!! Hardely any tuning when they are in the secondaries!! I can tell stuff is way richer though.
Its soo much better now!! Hardely any tuning when they are in the secondaries!! I can tell stuff is way richer though.