Bambam7

This particular 10AE was a very good example. Meticulously maintained. (Owned by Six Rotors- one of our resident "gurus")
It is very straight, very clean, with only minimal mods- including an RB boost control, a downpipe, urethane bushings, and nice Bridgstones (re730's I think?)
High KM's on the car though.

My 90 is of course- done up to about the limit for a moderate port- engine only, mods, just 225 tires. (basic Goodyears)
150K KM.

Impressions after driving the 10AE:

First off- much quieter!! Makes for a much smoother feeling ride.


Second off- A harsher ride- it feels more controlled though, probably due to the stiffer springs, and the urethane. My GXL has AAS- which is a bit more compliant, but not as great in the handling department.

Third off-
The power curve is totally different- it's a completely different feeling to drive. The turbo makes a very nice "swoosh" of power from about 3000K up... it's very linear, and feels like it makes the same power from 3000 to 7000! Very tourquey feel...beautifully flat curve. Feels effortless to pass people, and dash through traffic.

It isn't any faster than my car, but mine felt gutless after driving that. I have NO power like that at 3000 rpms, and my power curve shoots straight up like a rocket from 5000 up... my car makes the same power at 8000 as the AE felt like it did at 4000.... Even though peak HP is very simialar.
You really have to wind my car out- but once it's up to 7000+, it's fantastic. It just makes for much busier shifting trying to maintain that powerband. 0-60 is one thing- but a road course would be something else, that the flat curve of the AE would shine at.

I did feel slightly detached driving the AE though- I am so used to my N/A engine that the turbo feels a little unpredictable. I know exactly how much power I have at every RPM with my car, but the turbo sort of changes that... plus- the boost takes a second to really kick in.
Just an element of "directness" that just isn't there. That's something you can only get with "all motor".

I do have mixed feelings about putting the turbo on my car, including losing that direct feel- but I'm sure I'll get over the differences very quickly- and damn well enjoy the raw power!!

Now.. if only I can get it to handle like Six Rotors's....

(Oh- and I like the 10AE seats more than in my 90!!)

Dan

von

cool...If I ever get a turbo it will be on a third gen. The 2nd gen turbos seem kinda not cool for me.

bingoboy

hehe you could always supercharge

vaughnc

Since I own both I can give a little insight as well

The NAs have the advantage of a higher compression engine, so you get much better streetability (stickshif only) putting around town due to lots of torque from 1200-3500 rpms. The NAs are perfectly matched with HP vs handling so it's hard to mess up when driving.

Bambam7's right in that the power curve is PERFECTLY linear on the turbo IIs (unlike the NAs). The lower compression engine makes all its HP & torque from the turbo.

You have to adjust your driving style slightly with the turbo II because it's a TORQUE MONSTER (200 ft-lbs torque OEM) and can scare you around tight curvy roads where the back end may brake out due to the raw torque being delivered. The beefier drivetrain helps to control the high torque, but if you take the car around a 90 degree corner under full boost and the car will spin.

Most turbo lag can be avoided in changine your driving sytle. Once you adjust the car feels MUCH faster just putting around town than the NAs.

The TII is fun to drive because you tap the gas in ANY gear and VAROOOM!!!!! - you're gone. 3rd gear is a MASSIVE rush of power and makes your vision blur 5th gear is actually functional unlike the NAs and you can pass easily on the freeway (ie no dropping to 4th anymore).

The ride is just as soft on the TII, but the car responds more quickly to bumps & dips to help you maintain controle.

On the 3rd gen comment - yes you get the "larger engine" feel with twin turbos, but I'd rather convert a turbo II to a supercharged setup as that's the ultament in streetable boosted cars A turbo 450HP car is nice if you can controle it, but face it most "street drag" cars have HORRIBLE streetability (ie the clutch is so stiff you can't soft shift at 5mph without bogging the and killing the engine). So having a 250-300hp supercharged setup is perfect as boost is instant and always available in any gear. With a supercharger you pretty much set the HP output and get 0 lag. A turbo can be adjusted in the boost & power it delivers but you will aways get some lag.

Mazda made both cars great. The TII is a better track car and is what you want to make MASSIVE TORQUE & HP. The TII is MAJORLY detuned in it's OEM fassion. A few grand later in turbo & fuel mods and you're leaving most porsches in the dust

The NA and turbo are both great choices.

Bambam7

Better track car- Road or strip??
For the road track- IMO I would choose a nicely modded N/A over a TII- that's the general consensus among others too.
It's lighter, it runs cooler, it's just more predictaible, and more pure (throttle feeling)- and you don't have to worry about that extra element of boost- and being on your face if you don't have any for a second.
For the strip though- I don't think their is a question that the TII makes more power- and modded at 275 HP is much more drivable than a bridgported N/A.

tmak26b

Another thing, you know why there are no turbo built up road race car. Reliability....

stinkfist

I have seen lots of turbo road race cars. The reason there are not as many as you would think is because running a turbo in SCCA puts you in a VERY expensive class. It puts you in SPO where you will have to run against cars that have several hundred thousand dollars in development. It doesn't stop people from doing it though.
The last race I was at there was a 13BT powered datson 510, a single turbo third gen RX-7, and a single turbo supra.

It is not hard to make a turbo road race car. The only place they lag is at the bottom of the RPM range. You just adapt a differant driving technique to compensate.


Mike

vaughnc

In an ultra tight twistie road course the MIATA would lay the smack down on all of us

Most road courses though the TII would do better, but your right some modded NA will shine on certian courses.

But I will maintain a superchargerd TII will beat an NA on any course.

tmak26b

Its not just expensive, plus there are more works going into a turbocharged race cars than a NA car. Face it, that is the fact. Turbo is fast, but requires a lot more work. Plus a 13bt isnt going to run with a 944 Turbo unless you have big bucks to tweak it.

vosko

iTrader: (4)

i have driven fc n/a, fc TII, fd, and miata. the miata doesn't handle better than my FD but IT IS SO EASY to go fast through turns! its my mom's miata so i can't beat on it too much but i have done some powerslides through turns

akageals

I've owned 3 N/As and 2 Turbos (both '87s). I can't imagine a road course (or a street) where the TII is not better. It's got more power, a better drivetrain, better wheels/tires, better suspension AND better brakes. Just my opinion but I have no bias as I have owned (and loved) both. IMO the TII is better in every respect.

Todd

787B

you guys are really making me want a TURBO II

rico05

I can't wait to get my TII now!!! Man oh man my mouth is watering....

KenshinFC

Although we all RX7 owners and drivers, I believe that the N/A drivers and TII drivers drive different. With N/A's, you get better throttle response and there's no lag of the turbo. With better response, you can actually let the rpms drop lower because the torque for N/A's are lower. With TII's, they produce more power but you can't let the rpms drop low because of lag time. I've driven both N/A's and TII's, and I drive both differently. With my TII, my foot is on the gas most of the time to keep the rpms up. With an N/A, I'll let the rpms drop to get the torque from the powerband.

This is just something thats with all cars. You can't compare turbo and N/A cars. Its not the cars, its the drivers' style of driving.

- Kevin

vosko

iTrader: (4)

umm maybe it's just me but when i drove my 89 GTU it didn't really wanna go unless i revved it to 8000rpm..... my TII i can just tap the gas and instant torque no downshifting etc

Maxthe7man

I own both as well, I agree with much of the above..
I have been modding my n/a and I found that it has its torque sweet spot now, and there is something with rx-7's about gas pedal position, you can't floor them to get max power, there is a spot just before wide open throttle that the engine seems to just love and you get a strong rush of seat pushing power.
With the N/a mods I have now, it seems to that it makes its best power from 3000+ an up, if I hold it at 3000 and then just wack it, the front of the car kinda leaps and the back end dives, the n/a is making pretty good rwhp now, with a g-tech I have gone from 50 hp to a 107 hp using 2700 lbs as the test wieght and fourth gear in the last year, its kinda fun to drive now, its header'd, cat backed, k&N'd, its got the throttle body mod and alot of tuning in it via port opening and ignition timing. It can actually spin its 225/50 16 yoko a520's now..
My TII was maxed right out with the stock turbo, I had downpipe, no cats, Tid mod and the like, was running around 11 psi of boost sometimes a bit higher, walbor fuel pump, profec a, s-afc and what not. it has a questionable streetport job with 3mm seals. It ran ok, made good pull at higher boost levels, was pretty fun to drive, it was quicker than my n/a is now, but it always had the marshmellow gas pedal feeling compared to the na, you hit the gas and then the power came on, it wasn't directly proportional it seemed to pedal position, you could push the pedal a 1/4 of the way, nothing, then a second later have a rush of torque at 1/4 pedal come out of nowhere.. Not as connected as the n/a..
The TII is a couple of weeks away from being a T04e'd haltech'd FMic'd beast, so gawd know what its gonna be like now...Hit the gas, wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait......ahhhhhhhhhh!.....Max

Six Rotors

iTrader: (17)

Well it is very interesting reading everyones comments.My car is the way it is because of the type of driving I do---it is basically a long distance tourer although I do drive it around town.It still has A/C,pwr steering and ABS brakes,factory cat and mufflers etc.Since I paid less than $3000 US for this car,four years ago. I cannot think of anything which would give me a better bang for the buck and do the same things for me,and it has never let me down on trips up to 7000miles.It,s great to blow by a Bimmer at 140 mph knowing he paid $10 times more for his car than I did!

Felix Wankel

The only thing I miss about my NA was that it could idle off in first. Made it easier to drive in traffic.

von

People that compare thiers n/a to t11 and say t11 is better have all had slow N/As. Right now my modded N/A will out drag a Turbo easy. Hitting 8300 rpms with mods I basically did myself. The only difference is when U start modded your turbo 11. But even then its going to take more then a high flow cat and cat back to do low 14s. All well. If u have the money go for the turbo.

Bambam7

I was the threadstarter here- and I have a few more comments...
My 90 doesn't really compare to a stock port N/A at all..
The stock port N/A has a pretty flat power curve too- its pretty flat from 4500 or so on up to redline- usually dying a bit at redline.
Mine just pulls more and more from 5000 up- no lower, and definatly not a flat curve.
Here's what I'm really comparing- The two engines, making very similar peak HP, one turbo and one N/A.
The mods you have to make on a n/a to get 200 hp sacrifice low end power...and it has to be wound right up tight all the time. Sure, a turbo has to be kept on the boost too.
The turbo still has that unpredictible elastic band feel though.
It's hard to compare a stock port NA to a TII, simply because there is 50 hp difference between them, but when you equal the engines out, it interesting to feel how different they are at making their own style of power.

Dan
(PS- Just baked another new style Mustang GT a few minutes ago... poor rich kid...)

vaughnc

Thus a supercharged TII is the best of both worlds Boosted and instant throttle responce

gotorx7

I've owned all those too, (still have a TII and an FD), and the Miata was without doubt the most tolerant and forgiving. No sudden power-induced tail-slides, which meant you could drive it with lot's of confidence at it's limits.

The TII is probably the most fun to drive as far as power is concerned, as it comes on in a big rush and is devastatingly quick if you can keep it in the powerband.

But for pure speed and impeccable manners, the FD leaves all in it's wake. It is almost a cross between the Miata and a TII - incredible handling and bags of grunt!

Bambam7

Yup.... I love how tight and tuned in the FD feels. It's almost telepathic. It has the sequential turbos too, which eleminates the laggy feel- I don't feel any of that whenever I drive and FD.
Can't wait to drive the RX-8 and compare the feel of that N/A engine!
Man, we all know how stuffed and capped up the rotaries come from the factory... for reliability I'm sure, imagine what that 250HP renesis engine will be like once its opened up with aftermarket exhaust and intake?????
DAMN!