John V's STS GTUs build thread
07-06-11 | 09:46 PM
#501
Well, Toledo National Tour didn't go well. Due to various issues (extreme heat being one of them), I wasn't feeling well at all on Saturday and didn't drive well. The courses were pretty uninspired and didn't suit the car very well. That combined with rear brake lockup issues led to me being pretty frustrated.
I'm contemplating not taking the car to Nationals. I realized that the one win that I had this year (NJ Pro) was a rare combination of circumstances - a good course for the car, me being at the very top of my game in terms of driving, a bad weekend by my prime competition and a course that wasn't good for his car. And I barely eked out a win that weekend. I'm starting to realize that the car just isn't going to be a top dog in STS and I'm thinking about cutting my losses and moving on to the next project.
Realistically, I'll never get out the money that I put into the car, but I can probably do better if I part it out. Having said that, if anyone out there is interested in any or all of my setup, please don't hesitate to contact me. I'm not committed to moving on yet, but I want to gauge interest.
I'll post up a list of parts in a few days if I haven't changed my mind
-JV
I'm contemplating not taking the car to Nationals. I realized that the one win that I had this year (NJ Pro) was a rare combination of circumstances - a good course for the car, me being at the very top of my game in terms of driving, a bad weekend by my prime competition and a course that wasn't good for his car. And I barely eked out a win that weekend. I'm starting to realize that the car just isn't going to be a top dog in STS and I'm thinking about cutting my losses and moving on to the next project.
Realistically, I'll never get out the money that I put into the car, but I can probably do better if I part it out. Having said that, if anyone out there is interested in any or all of my setup, please don't hesitate to contact me. I'm not committed to moving on yet, but I want to gauge interest.
I'll post up a list of parts in a few days if I haven't changed my mind
-JV
"I think I will run it locally the rest of this year but I'm not taking it to nationals. I will probably hunt around for something else to run out there and either bag out on the Pro finale or find a Miata to drive."
STICK WITH IT
07-07-11 | 12:53 PM
#503
I actually love the Toledo site. The courses are usually great and I typically do well there. Won A Stock at the 2008 Pro, 2nd in SS at the 2009 Pro, 3rd in STS at the 2010 Pro. This year the courses didn't suck but were very meh.
To compound matters, I got to re-reading the rulebook on suspension allowances in STS and realized that there is no legal way to adjust rear camber on the FC in street touring. I pulled my center-adjust camber link and it won't be going back on the car (though I will say that Karack did a GREAT job with it).
Who knows, maybe the additional rear camber will do the car some good. I'll drive the car this weekend to find out.
As frustrating as it is to drive poorly and have a poor result, it's even more frustrating to have what feels like an epic run and then see the time is well off the pace.
To compound matters, I got to re-reading the rulebook on suspension allowances in STS and realized that there is no legal way to adjust rear camber on the FC in street touring. I pulled my center-adjust camber link and it won't be going back on the car (though I will say that Karack did a GREAT job with it).
Who knows, maybe the additional rear camber will do the car some good. I'll drive the car this weekend to find out.
As frustrating as it is to drive poorly and have a poor result, it's even more frustrating to have what feels like an epic run and then see the time is well off the pace.
07-08-11 | 06:38 AM
#506
The rulebook was obviously not written with a semi-trailing arm rear end in mind so it's not completely clear. I should probably ask for a clarification on it, but from the letter of the wording as it is now, no.
And I am a bit down - this has been a fun project but what it comes down to is I built the car to win, and if it can't win it doesn't do me much good.
And I am a bit down - this has been a fun project but what it comes down to is I built the car to win, and if it can't win it doesn't do me much good.
07-08-11 | 11:16 AM
#507
have you looked at the whiteline camber adjuster?
http://www.whiteline.com.au/product_..._number=KCA379
it might not work with DTSS eliminators.... and it's probably illegal anyway though because it looks like more metal than the stock bushing.
http://www.whiteline.com.au/product_..._number=KCA379
it might not work with DTSS eliminators.... and it's probably illegal anyway though because it looks like more metal than the stock bushing.
07-08-11 | 11:23 AM
#508
Just looked up the rules... yeah, it looks like moving the subframes is a no-no... which is what your link is doing.
why did you ditch the original camber adjusters? because they were metal bearings?
"I. Camber kits, also known as camber compensators, may be installed.
These kits consist of either adjustable length arms or arm mounts
(including ball joints) that provide a lateral adjustment to the effective
length of a control arm. Alignment outside the factory specifications
is allowed."
it seems like if you modified the stock dog bones (cut a section out and thread both sides) it would be perfectly legal.
why did you ditch the original camber adjusters? because they were metal bearings?
"I. Camber kits, also known as camber compensators, may be installed.
These kits consist of either adjustable length arms or arm mounts
(including ball joints) that provide a lateral adjustment to the effective
length of a control arm. Alignment outside the factory specifications
is allowed."
it seems like if you modified the stock dog bones (cut a section out and thread both sides) it would be perfectly legal.
07-08-11 | 12:35 PM
#509
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The rulebook was obviously not written with a semi-trailing arm rear end in mind so it's not completely clear. I should probably ask for a clarification on it, but from the letter of the wording as it is now, no.
And I am a bit down - this has been a fun project but what it comes down to is I built the car to win, and if it can't win it doesn't do me much good.
And I am a bit down - this has been a fun project but what it comes down to is I built the car to win, and if it can't win it doesn't do me much good.
i doubt they are available anymore, but just because you can't use karaks rod, doesn't mean you can't legally adjust camber.
you could claim you have the arms, or figure out which bushing it is, and fix that.
07-08-11 | 06:44 PM
#510
Just looked up the rules... yeah, it looks like moving the subframes is a no-no... which is what your link is doing.
why did you ditch the original camber adjusters? because they were metal bearings?
"I. Camber kits, also known as camber compensators, may be installed.
These kits consist of either adjustable length arms or arm mounts
(including ball joints) that provide a lateral adjustment to the effective
length of a control arm. Alignment outside the factory specifications
is allowed."
it seems like if you modified the stock dog bones (cut a section out and thread both sides) it would be perfectly legal.
why did you ditch the original camber adjusters? because they were metal bearings?
"I. Camber kits, also known as camber compensators, may be installed.
These kits consist of either adjustable length arms or arm mounts
(including ball joints) that provide a lateral adjustment to the effective
length of a control arm. Alignment outside the factory specifications
is allowed."
it seems like if you modified the stock dog bones (cut a section out and thread both sides) it would be perfectly legal.
Key word there is "lateral." Adjusting the dog bone length is not a lateral adjustment to the length of the control arm. The correct section to quote is this:
"On swing or trailing arm suspensions, the main arms may not be modified or replaced, but lateral locating links/arms may be modified or replaced."
Again, I should probably write in to have the wording clarified. Maybe the dog bones are legal under that rule. The issue is that it's a lot of work to cut and weld dog bones to different lengths.
I ditched the adjustable camber links because they break. They break because the AWR and the MMR links both remove one degree of freedom from the movement of the link, putting it in shear. They break and they will always break because it's a crappy design. To their credit though, there's no way to design a link that works the way the stock one does, so modifying the stock dog bones really would be the only way.
I've seen that whiteline kit before but I'm not completely sure which bushing it replaces.
07-08-11 | 08:46 PM
#512
I actually love the Toledo site. The courses are usually great and I typically do well there. Won A Stock at the 2008 Pro, 2nd in SS at the 2009 Pro, 3rd in STS at the 2010 Pro. This year the courses didn't suck but were very meh.
To compound matters, I got to re-reading the rulebook on suspension allowances in STS and realized that there is no legal way to adjust rear camber on the FC in street touring. I pulled my center-adjust camber link and it won't be going back on the car (though I will say that Karack did a GREAT job with it).
Who knows, maybe the additional rear camber will do the car some good. I'll drive the car this weekend to find out.
As frustrating as it is to drive poorly and have a poor result, it's even more frustrating to have what feels like an epic run and then see the time is well off the pace.
To compound matters, I got to re-reading the rulebook on suspension allowances in STS and realized that there is no legal way to adjust rear camber on the FC in street touring. I pulled my center-adjust camber link and it won't be going back on the car (though I will say that Karack did a GREAT job with it).
Who knows, maybe the additional rear camber will do the car some good. I'll drive the car this weekend to find out.
As frustrating as it is to drive poorly and have a poor result, it's even more frustrating to have what feels like an epic run and then see the time is well off the pace.
it will probably help having more negative camber on a tight course than for straight line applications where the negative camber will have adverse affects on straight line traction and thanks.
07-08-11 | 11:46 PM
#513
Key word there is "lateral." Adjusting the dog bone length is not a lateral adjustment to the length of the control arm. The correct section to quote is this:
"On swing or trailing arm suspensions, the main arms may not be modified or replaced, but lateral locating links/arms may be modified or replaced."
Again, I should probably write in to have the wording clarified. Maybe the dog bones are legal under that rule. The issue is that it's a lot of work to cut and weld dog bones to different lengths.
I ditched the adjustable camber links because they break. They break because the AWR and the MMR links both remove one degree of freedom from the movement of the link, putting it in shear. They break and they will always break because it's a crappy design. To their credit though, there's no way to design a link that works the way the stock one does, so modifying the stock dog bones really would be the only way.
I've seen that whiteline kit before but I'm not completely sure which bushing it replaces.
"On swing or trailing arm suspensions, the main arms may not be modified or replaced, but lateral locating links/arms may be modified or replaced."
Again, I should probably write in to have the wording clarified. Maybe the dog bones are legal under that rule. The issue is that it's a lot of work to cut and weld dog bones to different lengths.
I ditched the adjustable camber links because they break. They break because the AWR and the MMR links both remove one degree of freedom from the movement of the link, putting it in shear. They break and they will always break because it's a crappy design. To their credit though, there's no way to design a link that works the way the stock one does, so modifying the stock dog bones really would be the only way.
I've seen that whiteline kit before but I'm not completely sure which bushing it replaces.
I still don't think the AWR pieces are legal because they're all metal... seems like you could make some pretty sweet links with some heim joints, but that wouldn't be legal for the same reason
The whiteline kit replaces one of the bushings in the tri-axial hub. there is 1 that's a spherical bearing stock, one that's the DTSS and one is just a standard rubber bushing and that's what it replaces, but it depends on the compliance of the spherical bearing and the DTSS... I don't think it would work very well with solid DTSS bushings.
07-09-11 | 07:52 AM
#514
Remove your rear shock assembly and exercise the suspension through its full range of motion and you'll see why they break.
Because the factory links are a pillow ball I think the MMR links should not violate the "more metal than stock" rule.
07-09-11 | 01:03 PM
#515
i was gonna try to take pics to show what i did, but i'm too lazy lol. this is for AWR/Mazdatrix links:
grease the two sleeves and the top half of the bolt, and only use one jam nut. leave the upper block free to do whatever it wants, and jam the bottom block with the nut.
to align the car, put a wrench on the nut, crack the bolt loose with a hex, remove wrench, set camber, put wrench on and tighten the nut. if you barely crack it loose, retightening should keep your camber where you want it.
its obviously not ideal, but this way the upper block can slide left/right on the sleeve, and also rotate on the shank. that should prevent any breakage (until it gets all rusty, then you're tempting fate)
grease the two sleeves and the top half of the bolt, and only use one jam nut. leave the upper block free to do whatever it wants, and jam the bottom block with the nut.
to align the car, put a wrench on the nut, crack the bolt loose with a hex, remove wrench, set camber, put wrench on and tighten the nut. if you barely crack it loose, retightening should keep your camber where you want it.
its obviously not ideal, but this way the upper block can slide left/right on the sleeve, and also rotate on the shank. that should prevent any breakage (until it gets all rusty, then you're tempting fate)
07-09-11 | 10:42 PM
#519
who's going to realistically spend $1k to be legal for a BS autocross classification?
why should some car makes have the benefit of having adjustable camber and others are stuck with what they came with? for the sake of keeping the car all original, well that doesn't realistically keep even a stock car competetive because some cars simply had more foresight than others in that respect. the FC is crippled due to the inability to adjust camber in any real amount anywhere on the car.
why should some car makes have the benefit of having adjustable camber and others are stuck with what they came with? for the sake of keeping the car all original, well that doesn't realistically keep even a stock car competetive because some cars simply had more foresight than others in that respect. the FC is crippled due to the inability to adjust camber in any real amount anywhere on the car.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 07-09-11 at 10:46 PM.
07-10-11 | 08:35 AM
#520
07-10-11 | 02:02 PM
#521
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you are also right, the SCCA rules are just not written very well, here is an example from earlier in the thread; "I. Camber kits, also known as camber compensators, may be installed.
These kits consist of either adjustable length arms or arm mounts
(including ball joints) that provide a lateral adjustment to the effective
length of a control arm. Alignment outside the factory specifications
is allowed."
are they even talking about the rear suspension? if you type camber compensator into google, and you'll find its for a 356 porsche/triumph spitfire/vw bug! its designed to fix the problem in the pic.
the NASA PT/TT rule is much clearer
"Replace or modify control arms (other than plates, shims, slots, or eccentric bolts/bushings
for simple camber/caster adjustment only) or RWD/AWD rear trailing arms (may have
spherical/metallic joint for the connection to the spindle/knuckle) +4"
rant off! sorry for being off topic...
07-12-11 | 08:13 AM
#522
Camber compensator doesn't just apply to swing axles - it's used as a general term.
I would love for someone to pick up the torch and keep trying with the FC in STS, but I've made my decision to move on. I've got something else in the works and I need the space that the RX-7 is occupying.
I would love for someone to pick up the torch and keep trying with the FC in STS, but I've made my decision to move on. I've got something else in the works and I need the space that the RX-7 is occupying.
