I've solves the 2nd Gen sticky starter mystery
07-22-11, 08:16 PM
#151
Figured the next most likely culprit might be the interlock switch and I just happened to have the switch out of the FD sitting here, so...
...ahh, no.
I can see the switch in situ and can even imagine how I might weasel a socket past the pushrod and onto the mounting screw but the wiring is completely hidden, I suspect it's atop the pedal mount bracket.
If so, it's untouchable until the dash is removed.
And that is just a bridge too far in this heat.
Grrr.
07-29-11, 06:23 AM
#154
OK, so it turns out that on the S5 (maybe the S4 as well) the wiring for the clutch switch IS clipped (somehow) to the top of the pedal mount bracket.
Fortunately it has a fairly long pigtail which joins the harness in a very accessible spot and is easily bypassed with a jumper, leaving the switch itself still in place, albeit merely decorative.
At the same time I disconnected the battery feed on the starter and sanded the cable end to remove any corrosion.
Car has now started perfectly for three days. I'm almost thinking I've got this beat.
Fortunately it has a fairly long pigtail which joins the harness in a very accessible spot and is easily bypassed with a jumper, leaving the switch itself still in place, albeit merely decorative.
At the same time I disconnected the battery feed on the starter and sanded the cable end to remove any corrosion.
Car has now started perfectly for three days. I'm almost thinking I've got this beat.
08-22-11, 07:41 AM
#155
Symptoms returned with a vengeance a few days later...got so bad that the starter never worked and for a week or so I had to bump start the car.
One happy side note is that the car bumps over so easily that I've concluded the compression must still be pretty good...nice to know as I hit 200k miles...
I went through every connection and cable, everything seemed fine.
I bypassed the clutch interlock and even ran a hot wire direct to the starter solenoid...nothing.
Finally concluded that the starter itself must be at fault and was shocked at how expensive remanned starters are (average @ $140).
Couldn't find solenoids anywhere but did see a brush kit for $20 at Autozone (BTW, NAPA claimed to have the brushes for $9 but was twice unable to actually produce them) and figured it was worth a shot.
That really did fix it.
Moral of story...don't overlook the obvious.
10-03-11, 10:10 PM
#157
What a coincidence, I just replaced my stater last week, it was getting power but just not turning over, and when it did turn over there was an awful grinding sound, a sound which of course it didn't make when I had it tested ....the first 4 times, but eventually it showed its true colors. I might have been able to limo by w/a solenoid or some brushes, but for $86 (thank you O'rieleys! ...even though there were none I'm jacksonville and it had to come from atlanta ) I just got a lifetime warranty reman.
I'm fairly certain I gained at least 5psi compression lol, it turns over much faster than it ever had before.
I'm fairly certain I gained at least 5psi compression lol, it turns over much faster than it ever had before.
10-04-11, 09:51 AM
#158
What a coincidence, I just replaced my stater last week, it was getting power but just not turning over, and when it did turn over there was an awful grinding sound, a sound which of course it didn't make when I had it tested ....the first 4 times, but eventually it showed its true colors. I might have been able to limo by w/a solenoid or some brushes, but for $86 (thank you O'rieleys! ...even though there were none I'm jacksonville and it had to come from atlanta ) I just got a lifetime warranty reman.
I'm fairly certain I gained at least 5psi compression lol, it turns over much faster than it ever had before.
I'm fairly certain I gained at least 5psi compression lol, it turns over much faster than it ever had before.
12-23-11, 06:12 PM
#159
please post a pick of the starter relay's yellow line you mention. i need a cheap way out fast. i tried cutting the alarm from cpu (yes im super lazy) with no avail.
running lines is something i would tackle when i can get mines in a garage, not on the street.
(that would be in 3 days... right now think by cutting the line all together it is in super protect mode? i dont know *sob* )
running lines is something i would tackle when i can get mines in a garage, not on the street.
(that would be in 3 days... right now think by cutting the line all together it is in super protect mode? i dont know *sob* )
12-23-11, 06:24 PM
#160
please post a pick of the starter relay's yellow line you mention. i need a cheap way out fast. i tried cutting the alarm from cpu (yes im super lazy) with no avail.
running lines is something i would tackle when i can get mines in a garage, not on the street.
(that would be in 3 days... right now think by cutting the line all together it is in super protect mode? i dont know *sob* )
running lines is something i would tackle when i can get mines in a garage, not on the street.
(that would be in 3 days... right now think by cutting the line all together it is in super protect mode? i dont know *sob* )
12-23-11, 07:06 PM
#161
Driving RX7's since 1979
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please post a pick of the starter relay's yellow line you mention. i need a cheap way out fast. i tried cutting the alarm from cpu (yes im super lazy) with no avail.
running lines is something i would tackle when i can get mines in a garage, not on the street.
(that would be in 3 days... right now think by cutting the line all together it is in super protect mode? i dont know *sob* )
running lines is something i would tackle when i can get mines in a garage, not on the street.
(that would be in 3 days... right now think by cutting the line all together it is in super protect mode? i dont know *sob* )
02-07-12, 10:00 PM
#162
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Followup to my post on page 4 of this thread and in response to HAILERS2.
I've made a starter wire harness patch for the clicking starter problem. My experience has been that, the wire to the starter solenoid corrodes internally. When the wire corrodes internally all of the individual strands inside can not work together, and the wire looses it's ability to carry any current.
This is the problem with the harness as a whole on the RX-7, and is also the reason why on some cars, adding additional ground wires fixes electrical gremlins. The stock ground wires deteriorate internally, and are unable to carry the amount of current needed to properly ground the car.
The relay trick works for one of two reasons:
1) You have a deteriorated solenoid wire, and you are now supplying that deteriorated wire with a much larger supply of power, and that new supply is strong enough to overcome the deterioration in the solenoid wire. If this is the case, in time the solenoid wire will deteriorate to the point that the relay trick will not work.
2) You have existing problems with your clutch switch, ignition switch, starter cut relay, (unlikely from what I've seen) and the relay supplies a new source of power to the starter.
Neither solution will work if you have a faulty/intermittent starter.
Below is a picture of my solution. It's simple, stock looking, and has worked on my car for the past year.
I've made a starter wire harness patch for the clicking starter problem. My experience has been that, the wire to the starter solenoid corrodes internally. When the wire corrodes internally all of the individual strands inside can not work together, and the wire looses it's ability to carry any current.
This is the problem with the harness as a whole on the RX-7, and is also the reason why on some cars, adding additional ground wires fixes electrical gremlins. The stock ground wires deteriorate internally, and are unable to carry the amount of current needed to properly ground the car.
The relay trick works for one of two reasons:
1) You have a deteriorated solenoid wire, and you are now supplying that deteriorated wire with a much larger supply of power, and that new supply is strong enough to overcome the deterioration in the solenoid wire. If this is the case, in time the solenoid wire will deteriorate to the point that the relay trick will not work.
2) You have existing problems with your clutch switch, ignition switch, starter cut relay, (unlikely from what I've seen) and the relay supplies a new source of power to the starter.
Neither solution will work if you have a faulty/intermittent starter.
Below is a picture of my solution. It's simple, stock looking, and has worked on my car for the past year.
02-09-12, 06:00 PM
#163
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Just installed what is pictured above on my TII, it fired up the first time NO clicks. Started it 5 or 6 times through out the day. Never clicked. My car would always click a few times and then start.
04-24-12, 07:18 PM
#164
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I was having the sticky starter and getting by with it, and now its completely lifeless.
meaning, no dash lights, no start, nothing. Headlights do work though
I replaced main fuse and tried another main relay. Starter tested out good. Battery is new.
Hate to throw another ign switch on it, haven't replaced alternator yet, but have a fresh reman laying around from another core motor.
Any suggestions on alternator being the culprit?
Thanks
meaning, no dash lights, no start, nothing. Headlights do work though
I replaced main fuse and tried another main relay. Starter tested out good. Battery is new.
Hate to throw another ign switch on it, haven't replaced alternator yet, but have a fresh reman laying around from another core motor.
Any suggestions on alternator being the culprit?
Thanks
04-24-12, 07:26 PM
#165
I was having the sticky starter and getting by with it, and now its completely lifeless.
meaning, no dash lights, no start, nothing. Headlights do work though
I replaced main fuse and tried another main relay. Starter tested out good. Battery is new.
Hate to throw another ign switch on it, haven't replaced alternator yet, but have a fresh reman laying around from another core motor.
Any suggestions on alternator being the culprit?
Thanks
meaning, no dash lights, no start, nothing. Headlights do work though
I replaced main fuse and tried another main relay. Starter tested out good. Battery is new.
Hate to throw another ign switch on it, haven't replaced alternator yet, but have a fresh reman laying around from another core motor.
Any suggestions on alternator being the culprit?
Thanks
Is this an S4 or S5?
04-25-12, 12:49 AM
#166
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I was having the sticky starter and getting by with it, and now its completely lifeless.
meaning, no dash lights, no start, nothing. Headlights do work though
I replaced main fuse and tried another main relay. Starter tested out good. Battery is new.
Hate to throw another ign switch on it, haven't replaced alternator yet, but have a fresh reman laying around from another core motor.
Any suggestions on alternator being the culprit?
Thanks
meaning, no dash lights, no start, nothing. Headlights do work though
I replaced main fuse and tried another main relay. Starter tested out good. Battery is new.
Hate to throw another ign switch on it, haven't replaced alternator yet, but have a fresh reman laying around from another core motor.
Any suggestions on alternator being the culprit?
Thanks
You replaced the fuse.. was it blown? I doubt it..
the car not starting has absolutely NOTHING todo with the alt, even without the alt the car still starts..
The main relay could cause the car not to start, but dash lights should work
Headlights work without having a key in the ignition, hence the need for a lights-on buzzer.
So.. start at the source: the ignition switch
Take off the colomn trim and start measuring the contacts, 90% sure you fpound your problem
04-26-12, 01:11 PM
#168
most of the time the issue with the starter on these cars isn't that the whole system doesn't function otherwise you would get NO power to the starter solenoid at all. usually you will get close to 12volts at the starter pigtail when turning the key to start, this does not mean you have sufficient amps to actually kick the solenoid over.
best method for MOST cars is a relay at the starter that takes direct battery power from the battery+ wire to the starter and uses that via the relay to kick over the solenoid using the original pigtail to trigger the relay.
IMO the best method is to just cut out all the clutter and bypass the whole circuit, taking the start wire right off the ignition switch and run a new wire right down to the starter solenoid. this avoids all the relays that are causing resistance and causing the "click click, start?" syndrome.
it bothers me that so many people still will break out a voltmeter and read a voltage reading like it truly means something, all it tells you is if you are getting a signal but you may still not be getting enough push through the system to do much at all which is where AMPS come in. amps bleed off on cars with high resistance, you may have originally had a wiring harness with a 30 copper wire bundle pushing 30 amps through a circuit, over time eventually you get relays with dirty contacts, corrosion at connectors and corroded wiring itself just adds resistance. so in essence after 25 years of use you may wind up getting 5 strands out of that 30 copper wire bundle worth of usefulness from a system, pushing 5 amps for example. this will give you 12 volts but not enough amps to actually do what you needed to do from the power being fed.
in my original description the wiring diagram would be as follows:
pin 85 > original black spade connector to starter solenoid from the chassis harness
pin 86> ground the wire off this
pin 30> a jumper wire with ring terminal to the battery+ post on the starter motor
pin 87> wire a jumper to the original spade off the starter solenoid
this will work for most cars, for some it may cause the starter to hang and keep cranking in which case you need to clean and adjust your ignition switch to not drag. this keeps the original system intact and avoids the issue of lost amperage from old wiring/relays.
the problem is figuring out which point of the system is creating too much of a draw on the amperage, this is not an easy task for most DIYers without expensive test equipment. in addition the system is overly complex running through a number of relays/switches, some of which really do not need the additional strain.
best method for MOST cars is a relay at the starter that takes direct battery power from the battery+ wire to the starter and uses that via the relay to kick over the solenoid using the original pigtail to trigger the relay.
IMO the best method is to just cut out all the clutter and bypass the whole circuit, taking the start wire right off the ignition switch and run a new wire right down to the starter solenoid. this avoids all the relays that are causing resistance and causing the "click click, start?" syndrome.
it bothers me that so many people still will break out a voltmeter and read a voltage reading like it truly means something, all it tells you is if you are getting a signal but you may still not be getting enough push through the system to do much at all which is where AMPS come in. amps bleed off on cars with high resistance, you may have originally had a wiring harness with a 30 copper wire bundle pushing 30 amps through a circuit, over time eventually you get relays with dirty contacts, corrosion at connectors and corroded wiring itself just adds resistance. so in essence after 25 years of use you may wind up getting 5 strands out of that 30 copper wire bundle worth of usefulness from a system, pushing 5 amps for example. this will give you 12 volts but not enough amps to actually do what you needed to do from the power being fed.
in my original description the wiring diagram would be as follows:
pin 85 > original black spade connector to starter solenoid from the chassis harness
pin 86> ground the wire off this
pin 30> a jumper wire with ring terminal to the battery+ post on the starter motor
pin 87> wire a jumper to the original spade off the starter solenoid
this will work for most cars, for some it may cause the starter to hang and keep cranking in which case you need to clean and adjust your ignition switch to not drag. this keeps the original system intact and avoids the issue of lost amperage from old wiring/relays.
the problem is figuring out which point of the system is creating too much of a draw on the amperage, this is not an easy task for most DIYers without expensive test equipment. in addition the system is overly complex running through a number of relays/switches, some of which really do not need the additional strain.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 04-26-12 at 01:25 PM.
04-29-12, 07:43 PM
#169
That said..............it makes no difference to me if it's factory or aftermarket. You say if the Blue jumper plug is pulled out the car won't start. Good. Normal. So all you do is leave the blue jumper in the connector. Get a piece of 18-22 gauge wire from somewhere and also get a female connector to crimp on one end of that new wire.
So now you have a new wire with a female on it. Get under the car and pull the small trigger wire off the starter solenoid. It pulls straight off. Put you new wire with female connector on the blade on the starter soleoid where you just pulled the small trigger wire off. Tie the old wire to the harness. Do NOT cut it or molest it.
Now run your NEW wire up from the starter solenoid to the BLUE jumper.
Now cut the wire on the Blue jumper in the middle. Bare both pieces with wire strippers or razor blade etc. Twist them together and install them in a butt splice. Put your NEW wire in the other end of the butt splice.
Start the car and see what happens. Hopefully there is no click at all and just a good starting car.
Male and female end fittings are at Autozone/PepBoys or even cheaper at HOME DEPOT in the electrical parts area.
Instead of crimping you could solder the wires at the blue connector, but you need a female connector at the starter solenoid.
Need a picture of any of the parts?????? Butt splices and female end fittings???? For 18-22 ga wire?????
No relay involved here. Just an experiment driven by what DAVE007 wrote and all I did was experiment and do what I just now described and my car works fine with no click, click, click.
I'm not agains the relays. Like I said earlier, I installed a relay years ago to *fix* this oddball problem. I could just be lucky or this could be a good fix.......to bypass the wires leaving the BLUE jumper to the starter solenoid.
Sorry, I've no time or wanna to go out with a meter and see where the voltage drop is. It's too hared to access the plug called FE-05 (memory).
On a car with the elect connector connected to the Starter Cut Relay and no blue jumper, just splice into the BLACK/WHITE wire of the elect connector and run that new wire to the starter solenoid to replace the original wire on the blade of the starter solenoid. Never cut or mess up the original wire that was on the starter solenoid. Just tie it to the harness and forget it.
This is just an experiment. But if it worked for Dave007 and worked for me on two cars and then works for another person on this forum..........this could be a easy fix with no relay involved.
So now you have a new wire with a female on it. Get under the car and pull the small trigger wire off the starter solenoid. It pulls straight off. Put you new wire with female connector on the blade on the starter soleoid where you just pulled the small trigger wire off. Tie the old wire to the harness. Do NOT cut it or molest it.
Now run your NEW wire up from the starter solenoid to the BLUE jumper.
Now cut the wire on the Blue jumper in the middle. Bare both pieces with wire strippers or razor blade etc. Twist them together and install them in a butt splice. Put your NEW wire in the other end of the butt splice.
Start the car and see what happens. Hopefully there is no click at all and just a good starting car.
Male and female end fittings are at Autozone/PepBoys or even cheaper at HOME DEPOT in the electrical parts area.
Instead of crimping you could solder the wires at the blue connector, but you need a female connector at the starter solenoid.
Need a picture of any of the parts?????? Butt splices and female end fittings???? For 18-22 ga wire?????
No relay involved here. Just an experiment driven by what DAVE007 wrote and all I did was experiment and do what I just now described and my car works fine with no click, click, click.
I'm not agains the relays. Like I said earlier, I installed a relay years ago to *fix* this oddball problem. I could just be lucky or this could be a good fix.......to bypass the wires leaving the BLUE jumper to the starter solenoid.
Sorry, I've no time or wanna to go out with a meter and see where the voltage drop is. It's too hared to access the plug called FE-05 (memory).
On a car with the elect connector connected to the Starter Cut Relay and no blue jumper, just splice into the BLACK/WHITE wire of the elect connector and run that new wire to the starter solenoid to replace the original wire on the blade of the starter solenoid. Never cut or mess up the original wire that was on the starter solenoid. Just tie it to the harness and forget it.
This is just an experiment. But if it worked for Dave007 and worked for me on two cars and then works for another person on this forum..........this could be a easy fix with no relay involved.
It was getting/seemed pretty bad, got stuck at a gas station for about 5 min trying to start, so this is definitely an improvement.
I might replace/rebuild the solenoid sometime as it is fairly easy to access and remove.
05-11-12, 06:35 PM
#172
Rotary Freak
I also disabled the interlock sw on another RX I have ...'cause I don't like 'em.
05-13-12, 11:16 AM
#173
I will sound like a complete dumb ***, but can someone do a "how to" with pictures? Electrical has always been a huge problem for me as I am colorblind. I never learned to read a wiring diagram because of that.
I do believe I got this problem, my car had been stuck in a parking lot for 2 days and I can't start the car. I'm going to buy a relay, wire and everything I need today to perform the fix where my car is stuck.
I know this can look dumb but it is my only solution. I taught it was my aftermarket alarm system, but it could easily be the sticky starter mystery problem as nothing happen when I try to turn the key.
I do believe I got this problem, my car had been stuck in a parking lot for 2 days and I can't start the car. I'm going to buy a relay, wire and everything I need today to perform the fix where my car is stuck.
I know this can look dumb but it is my only solution. I taught it was my aftermarket alarm system, but it could easily be the sticky starter mystery problem as nothing happen when I try to turn the key.
05-15-12, 10:14 AM
#174
I will sound like a complete dumb ***, but can someone do a "how to" with pictures? Electrical has always been a huge problem for me as I am colorblind. I never learned to read a wiring diagram because of that.
I do believe I got this problem, my car had been stuck in a parking lot for 2 days and I can't start the car. I'm going to buy a relay, wire and everything I need today to perform the fix where my car is stuck.
I know this can look dumb but it is my only solution. I taught it was my aftermarket alarm system, but it could easily be the sticky starter mystery problem as nothing happen when I try to turn the key.
I do believe I got this problem, my car had been stuck in a parking lot for 2 days and I can't start the car. I'm going to buy a relay, wire and everything I need today to perform the fix where my car is stuck.
I know this can look dumb but it is my only solution. I taught it was my aftermarket alarm system, but it could easily be the sticky starter mystery problem as nothing happen when I try to turn the key.
05-17-12, 02:18 PM
#175
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Has anyone else tried what Dave007 suggested?
I did it back in Feb and have not had the stater click at all! Not one single time. Before I did replaced that wire it would click at least 5 times before it would start.
Someone try it. It seems to be the easiest option.
24 year old corroded wire = bad continuity
bypass old wire with new wire = WIN
I did it back in Feb and have not had the stater click at all! Not one single time. Before I did replaced that wire it would click at least 5 times before it would start.
Someone try it. It seems to be the easiest option.
24 year old corroded wire = bad continuity
bypass old wire with new wire = WIN