Installled Custom Cai And Now....
#27
Passing life by
Sigh.. Some people so closed minded to facts other then they see fit.
There is a volume carectoristic of pipe. You could never get more air in your car befor then your smallest portion of your air box this being smaller then the inlet and outlet of your AFM thus resulting in a lower HP then posible du to restricted air flow.
BY matching the piping to the sizes of your AFM and TB you maximize your air fow and HP. The grater the length of this pipe = the grater amount of volme containd and thus resulting in more presure and or vacume to flow at 100% cfm's.
Take a straw and blow in it see how much air you sent through it? now put 3 straws together and now blow through them. You are blowing the same amount of air b/c your maximum inlet and outlets are the same but it is requiring you to blow harder! You have to blow harder b/c you have increased the maximum ocupancy of your item. Thus a longer piping will result the motor to have to pull much harder to get the maximum amount of air this not being generated untill a higher RMP.
Now if we shorten our item we rech maximum cfm at a much lower rate. You se here you are springing your motor to life with 100% CFM air flow immediatly and peaking it out befor you intended. A longer draw is taking more RPM to turn this gives your power curve a flater bottum and a higher top if you shorten it your curve is going to peak quickly and drop off faster. Your top HP is increasing in this setup b/c you are getting colder air .12HP per degree in F
There is a volume carectoristic of pipe. You could never get more air in your car befor then your smallest portion of your air box this being smaller then the inlet and outlet of your AFM thus resulting in a lower HP then posible du to restricted air flow.
BY matching the piping to the sizes of your AFM and TB you maximize your air fow and HP. The grater the length of this pipe = the grater amount of volme containd and thus resulting in more presure and or vacume to flow at 100% cfm's.
Take a straw and blow in it see how much air you sent through it? now put 3 straws together and now blow through them. You are blowing the same amount of air b/c your maximum inlet and outlets are the same but it is requiring you to blow harder! You have to blow harder b/c you have increased the maximum ocupancy of your item. Thus a longer piping will result the motor to have to pull much harder to get the maximum amount of air this not being generated untill a higher RMP.
Now if we shorten our item we rech maximum cfm at a much lower rate. You se here you are springing your motor to life with 100% CFM air flow immediatly and peaking it out befor you intended. A longer draw is taking more RPM to turn this gives your power curve a flater bottum and a higher top if you shorten it your curve is going to peak quickly and drop off faster. Your top HP is increasing in this setup b/c you are getting colder air .12HP per degree in F
Last edited by iceblue; 05-06-05 at 01:33 PM.
#29
Passing life by
It must be a bit chilly where you live. The only place I know that phisics does not exsist is in -300C I have never seen a place that cold.
RX-7Havik try this move your AFM and filter as close as you can to the TB yielding your overall setup lengh much shorter and then let us know what happens.
RX-7Havik try this move your AFM and filter as close as you can to the TB yielding your overall setup lengh much shorter and then let us know what happens.
Last edited by iceblue; 05-06-05 at 02:27 PM.
#30
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Originally Posted by iceblue
Sigh.. Some people so closed minded to facts other then they see fit.
You could never get more air in your car befor then your smallest portion of your air box this being smaller then the inlet and outlet of your AFM thus resulting in a lower HP then posible du to restricted air flow.
BY matching the piping to the sizes of your AFM and TB you maximize your air fow and HP.
The grater the length of this pipe = the grater amount of volme containd and thus resulting in more presure and or vacume to flow at 100% cfm's. Take a straw and blow in it see how much air you sent through it? now put 3 straws together and now blow through them. You are blowing the same amount of air b/c your maximum inlet and outlets are the same but it is requiring you to blow harder! You have to blow harder b/c you have increased the maximum ocupancy of your item.
Thus a longer piping will result the motor to have to pull much harder to get the maximum amount of air this not being generated untill a higher RMP. Now if we shorten our item we rech maximum cfm at a much lower rate.
You se here you are springing your motor to life with 100% CFM air flow immediatly and peaking it out befor you intended. A longer draw is taking more RPM to turn this gives your power curve a flater bottum and a higher top if you shorten it your curve is going to peak quickly and drop off faster.
Your top HP is increasing in this setup b/c you are getting colder air .12HP per degree in F
RX-7Havik try this move your AFM and filter as close as you can to the TB yielding your overall setup lengh much shorter and then let us know what happens.
Last edited by NZConvertible; 05-06-05 at 07:47 PM.
#31
Sharp Claws
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he does have a point though, even though some of his info is wrong. the extra amount of air coming into the engine could cause the engine to be running a tiny bit rich at lower RPMs and picking up the slack at higher RPMs, if he had a way of tuning the fuel it would be more efficient all the way around.
the length of the pipe can affect how the throttle reacts to quick throttle applications because it is adding a volume of air to the intake, measured air which takes longer to reach the engine, these changes should hardly feel noticable though... it doesn't take but a millisecond for that air to travel the extra length.
the length of the pipe can affect how the throttle reacts to quick throttle applications because it is adding a volume of air to the intake, measured air which takes longer to reach the engine, these changes should hardly feel noticable though... it doesn't take but a millisecond for that air to travel the extra length.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 05-06-05 at 08:23 PM.
#32
Doin a rebuild.
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Isnt the air flow meter still going to meter the same amount of air?
I've detached my air filter assembly completely and had neither rich nor lean conditions haunt me - granted i didnt exactly drive around long like this, but it was interesting.
To answer the question: You do not need larger injectors, keep in mind that using an s-afc to lean out the mixture actually tends to increase. I can't explain why you feel as though your power has changed, i doubt ram and cold air are going to change your whole 140hp and 138ftlbs by a substantial ratio that will make you unhappy or happy. On the ricer scale air filters give a 10-16hp gain... and that is generally a slightly skewed version of reality.
Where is the picture of your set up?
I've detached my air filter assembly completely and had neither rich nor lean conditions haunt me - granted i didnt exactly drive around long like this, but it was interesting.
To answer the question: You do not need larger injectors, keep in mind that using an s-afc to lean out the mixture actually tends to increase. I can't explain why you feel as though your power has changed, i doubt ram and cold air are going to change your whole 140hp and 138ftlbs by a substantial ratio that will make you unhappy or happy. On the ricer scale air filters give a 10-16hp gain... and that is generally a slightly skewed version of reality.
Where is the picture of your set up?
#33
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Originally Posted by Karack
the extra amount of air coming into the engine could cause the engine to be running a tiny bit rich at lower RPMs and picking up the slack at higher RPMs...
the length of the pipe can affect how the throttle reacts to quick throttle applications because it is adding a volume of air to the intake, measured air which takes longer to reach the engine...
This is such a simple and common mod. Why are people acting like he's done something new and unproven, and trying to come up with possible weird results? Geez, it's just a cold air intake.
#34
Passing life by
You all are looking far to much into my post and making it to complicated. Just to try and finde a way to prove me wrong. So far I am the only person to even give the dood and axsplanation befor trying to attack my awnsers provide him with a relavant awnser as well. Or show even a theory of where im wrong.
All I can say is test it yourself. From what I see ither your over looking the entire way an engin works or just dont know.
This is what I see. STOP thinking as HP as a number or a mod of HP as a number. A engin any engin has a curve line. Evry single mod you do increases HP or lowers it and same for Torque. If you add a mod to your car you gain a number or lose or both somehwere in the RPM range. Its not like in one spot. A mod changes the way your entire curv goes. Thus if this application dosent realy take advantage to a higher RPM the curve will change more in that area thus in this application in high RPM's he notices a much grater curve in his HP then he does at a lower.
I was giving an exsplanation of what happens to air in a tube and why his car can react to it differently.
Yes opneing hte exhoust or so forth enables you to flow more air. I dont car if your exhoust is 45in and 2in long you still can not flow any more air then your weakest point in the entire engin process. If your inlet is .5in for the intake you will never flow more out your exhoust then is posible with .5in inake of air.
If he used 3in pipe to is AFM from filter and a 6in pipe from AFM to TB you will have a big lag. one you can not get more air in there then 3in as well the AFM is reading for 3in of intake now the air must fill a 6in volume befor he can start pulling air in at a maximum of 3in of volume considering his engin internals and exhoust allow for full 3in volume of air to pass through it.
All I can say is test it yourself. From what I see ither your over looking the entire way an engin works or just dont know.
This is what I see. STOP thinking as HP as a number or a mod of HP as a number. A engin any engin has a curve line. Evry single mod you do increases HP or lowers it and same for Torque. If you add a mod to your car you gain a number or lose or both somehwere in the RPM range. Its not like in one spot. A mod changes the way your entire curv goes. Thus if this application dosent realy take advantage to a higher RPM the curve will change more in that area thus in this application in high RPM's he notices a much grater curve in his HP then he does at a lower.
I was giving an exsplanation of what happens to air in a tube and why his car can react to it differently.
Yes opneing hte exhoust or so forth enables you to flow more air. I dont car if your exhoust is 45in and 2in long you still can not flow any more air then your weakest point in the entire engin process. If your inlet is .5in for the intake you will never flow more out your exhoust then is posible with .5in inake of air.
If he used 3in pipe to is AFM from filter and a 6in pipe from AFM to TB you will have a big lag. one you can not get more air in there then 3in as well the AFM is reading for 3in of intake now the air must fill a 6in volume befor he can start pulling air in at a maximum of 3in of volume considering his engin internals and exhoust allow for full 3in volume of air to pass through it.
#35
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Originally Posted by iceblue
You all are looking far to much into my post and making it to complicated. Just to try and finde a way to prove me wrong. So far I am the only person to even give the dood and axsplanation befor trying to attack my awnsers provide him with a relavant awnser as well. Or show even a theory of where im wrong.
All I can say is test it yourself. From what I see ither your over looking the entire way an engin works or just dont know.
This is what I see. STOP thinking as HP as a number or a mod of HP as a number. A engin any engin has a curve line. Evry single mod you do increases HP or lowers it and same for Torque. If you add a mod to your car you gain a number or lose or both somehwere in the RPM range. Its not like in one spot. A mod changes the way your entire curv goes. Thus if this application dosent realy take advantage to a higher RPM the curve will change more in that area thus in this application in high RPM's he notices a much grater curve in his HP then he does at a lower.
Yes opneing hte exhoust or so forth enables you to flow more air. I dont car if your exhoust is 45in and 2in long you still can not flow any more air then your weakest point in the entire engin process. If your inlet is .5in for the intake you will never flow more out your exhoust then is posible with .5in inake of air.
If he used 3in pipe to is AFM from filter and a 6in pipe from AFM to TB you will have a big lag.
one you can not get more air in there then 3in as well the AFM is reading for 3in of intake now the air must fill a 6in volume he can start pulling air in at a maximum of 3in of volume considering his engin internals and exhoust allow for full 3in volume of air to pass through it.
Last edited by NZConvertible; 05-09-05 at 05:14 AM.
#36
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Originally Posted by iceblue
RX-7Havik try this move your AFM and filter as close as you can to the TB yielding your overall setup lengh much shorter and then let us know what happens.
I will try it. It makes sense to me Iceblue. I'll be honest about my results to everybody.
Pics are coming.
#37
I'm a boost creep...
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Don't do it, it's a bad idea. If you don't believe me, look around the forum at the way others have done it. Many have done it the way you have (most successfully) but nobody has been foolish enough to think moving the filter closer to the hot engine is a good idea.
#38
Passing life by
NZConvertible I know your reputable hear but I have to say you are compleatly wrong and taking my awnsers out of contaxt. Frankly what I said is compleatly right and the knowledge is taken compleatly from race proven macanics with many natinal titles under them and there motors. I care to less to try and exsplain it further or brake apart your replays. My opion why dont we wait and see what RX-7Havik has to say about his results and go from there.
#40
My FCs' are 5 foot pretty
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Havik, you broke something when installing your cai.
Its that simple.
You didn't just magically change your whole torque curve by putting a damn cone filter on your car!! The fresh air intake gained you 5whp and you messed someting else up when installing it. Now, change your oil, replace your sparkplugs and do some research on your car.
Its that simple.
You didn't just magically change your whole torque curve by putting a damn cone filter on your car!! The fresh air intake gained you 5whp and you messed someting else up when installing it. Now, change your oil, replace your sparkplugs and do some research on your car.
#41
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first of all, your theory is completly incorrect... I dont know what team let you work for them but I wouldnt let you work in a tire outlet.... you are saying that if you have a 1 foot long 3" pipe with a 2.5" nipple at the end of it, that it would flow as if the whole pipe was 2.5. The truth is that even if there is a reduction in diameter, the setup will still flow the same ammount, the only difference is that it will be at a greater psi...
#42
Passing life by
Originally Posted by MARTIN
first of all, your theory is completly incorrect... I dont know what team let you work for them but I wouldnt let you work in a tire outlet.... you are saying that if you have a 1 foot long 3" pipe with a 2.5" nipple at the end of it, that it would flow as if the whole pipe was 2.5. The truth is that even if there is a reduction in diameter, the setup will still flow the same ammount, the only difference is that it will be at a greater psi...
#43
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Lack of basic car knowledge aside, I would probably disregard anything said by someone with as poor English skills as iceblue. I take that statement back if English isn't his first language, but somehow, I doubt it.
#45
Passing life by
Originally Posted by beefhole
I don't get it. iceblue is wrong, yet doesn't understand despite clear explanations by everyone else who knows what they are talking about.
#48
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Originally Posted by iceblue
There is a volume carectoristic of pipe. You could never get more air in your car befor then your smallest portion of your air box this being smaller then the inlet and outlet of your AFM thus resulting in a lower HP then posible du to restricted air flow.
BY matching the piping to the sizes of your AFM and TB you maximize your air fow and HP. The grater the length of this pipe = the grater amount of volme containd and thus resulting in more presure and or vacume to flow at 100% cfm's.
Take a straw and blow in it see how much air you sent through it? now put 3 straws together and now blow through them. You are blowing the same amount of air b/c your maximum inlet and outlets are the same but it is requiring you to blow harder! You have to blow harder b/c you have increased the maximum ocupancy of your item. Thus a longer piping will result the motor to have to pull much harder to get the maximum amount of air this not being generated untill a higher RMP.
Now if we shorten our item we rech maximum cfm at a much lower rate. You se here you are springing your motor to life with 100% CFM air flow immediatly and peaking it out befor you intended
BY matching the piping to the sizes of your AFM and TB you maximize your air fow and HP. The grater the length of this pipe = the grater amount of volme containd and thus resulting in more presure and or vacume to flow at 100% cfm's.
Take a straw and blow in it see how much air you sent through it? now put 3 straws together and now blow through them. You are blowing the same amount of air b/c your maximum inlet and outlets are the same but it is requiring you to blow harder! You have to blow harder b/c you have increased the maximum ocupancy of your item. Thus a longer piping will result the motor to have to pull much harder to get the maximum amount of air this not being generated untill a higher RMP.
Now if we shorten our item we rech maximum cfm at a much lower rate. You se here you are springing your motor to life with 100% CFM air flow immediatly and peaking it out befor you intended
... ... ... ::sigh::
if the volume of air was a problem, then my EJ22 wouldn't benefit from the plastic air box next to the intake manifold. the box is there due to the small plenum on the manifold, it provides air instantaneously upon demand before the engine has to draw air through the whole system.
Lenght of pipe determines flow in a different manner. I will try to make a simple ascii diagram.
\|/
|ll|
|ll|
|ll|
/|\
\|/
|ll|
/|\
as you can see with the shorter pipe, air coming from many directions can flow straight through without hitting the wall of the pipe, whereas the longer pipe requres more force because it uses some of it to force the air in it's direction.
just my .02
Last edited by kontakt; 05-10-05 at 01:12 PM.
#49
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Originally Posted by End3r
Lack of basic car knowledge aside, I would probably disregard anything said by someone with as poor English skills as iceblue. I take that statement back if English isn't his first language, but somehow, I doubt it.
#50
MegaSquirt Mod
Originally Posted by RX-7Havik
I will try it. It makes sense to me Iceblue. I'll be honest about my results to everybody.
Pics are coming.
Pics are coming.
Installing the afm closer to the engine is a bad idea... You'll be sucking in hot air... and hot air is less dense...
Also, what iceblue says about intake length is backwards... usually longer intake causes more tumbling, so is decent for low-end torque because it helps mix the gas and air better... and shorter intake is better for high-end, because it can flow more air. But if I remember correctly, both of these usually refer to intake runner length on the manifold, and not the intake length in front of the throttle body.
Last edited by muythaibxr; 05-10-05 at 02:02 PM.