Goofy

Well, it'll break your bank, but POR-15 is a rust inhibitor.

Icemark

No, Bondo is filler, it should not be confused with primers which are types of paint. By the way the term Bondo is a trade name for brand of body fillers. There are a couple much better body fillers out there.

As mentioned above, there are several types of primer. One type is used for bare metal. One type is used for rough surfaces, one type is used as a sealer. With the exception of epoxy etching primers, you can not drive around with just one type of primer and expect that the will not rust where bare metal is under the primer.

first wash with dish soap (not car wash soap- car wash soap has waxes in it), then with a good degreaser/surface prep (at very least acetone if you are too cheap to buy a real degreaser/prep cleaner from a auto paint shop), then before painting clean again with windex or some other high amonina low lint formula window cleaner.

After the first two, then you can start sanding. Do not start sanding before using the first two, or you will drive any waxes or silicons already on the paint, into the existing paint, leading to problems when you go to finish paint the car.

Actually I never recommend store bought bondo. It shrinks too much and is rather soft. Use body filler again purchased from a auto paint supply house, or at very least filler/bondo for fiberglass (again if you have to go the cheap route).

In an ideal world you would never ever have any bondo/body filler on the car. If you have scratches in the bondo or existing paint, you will need the primer filler (paint), followed by a primer sealer if you intend to drive the car at all between bodywork and primer and when the finish paint is put on the car.

a tack rag is probably fine at that point.
paint/primer only used to seal and prep for painting any bare metal surfaces
all bondo/ body filler should be done before primering.
ah, again primer goes on after all the body work is done. A primer sealer should be used if there is any unsealed primer, unsealed body filler, or old paint.

hmm I don't think you are understanding the primer concept.

There are multiple types of primer. Primer is a paint that goes between what ever surface is there and the finish coat(s) of paint.

For a quick run down again, there are etching primers used to bond paint to bare metal, there is filler/surfacer primers used to fill small scratchs or other minor surface inmperfections, and there are primer sealers which are used to seal the layers under the primer that are not bare metal.

With the exception of one or two variations, they are not interchangeable. For example one exception is you could use a epoxy etching primer that would act as both a primer sealer and a etching primer that you could then drive around with, but it would be less than optimal over existing paint or any non bare metal body work. Mazda factory body repair panels that you would buy from the dealer are painted with an epoxy etching primer sealer. It is no problem there, because it is first applied to only bare metal.

You could also use a primer sealer that primes and seals everything including metal and body work, but again, it doesn't bond as well to metal as it does to existing plastics, paint or new body filler/bondo. Toss in, that it will magnify any minor surface imperfections when it completely drys.

So if you are a perfectionist as you claim and you are going to try and do body work and strip to bare metal, and you want the perfect surface to paint, then you will be using at least two different types of primer (possible all three if you suck at getting scratches or other minor imperfections out).

Of you can have average paint job and use just one. For many people that is enough, but generally not perfectionists. Just as a rough estimate, most body shops charge $3000-$4000+ for a perfectionist full body paint job with no body work, just because of the multiple layers of different types of primer and paint.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

there is no chemical for removing rust. there are rust *inhibitor* paints like Por-15 (the cadillac of them) and to a lesser extent, tremclad. But I wouldn't recommend using either on the exterior (aside from the underside) of your car.

They only way to repair rust is remove it by either cutting out the bad section and replacing it, or by sandblasting the rust clan away and patching over the pitted area.

You can use 400grit if you like, the real reason for sharper cuting sandpaper is to speed up the job. For most stripping, rough body work I use 80-120 grit. It cuts fast and 120 grit scratches require minimal primer to fill.


As far as sticking with one company I would recommend BASF. However truly you don't actually need to, the only reason a paint company recommends you use their products exclusively is for two reasons. 1 - You spend all your money with them. 2 - They won't warranty a competitors product. It has absolutely nothing to do with compatibility. The only time compatibility comes into play is with the actual MIXING of products. Meaning don't put sherwin williams hardener in BASF basecoat......

fcdrifter13

Welp this thread has offically went over my head, and I am used to paint and prep. lol.

Icemark

Actually you could dip tank the rusted part (or car) as well, which chemically strips the paint and rust away, but that is expensive, way beyond this guys abilities and not available is most smaller metroploitan areas. Toss in it requires that you remove everything but the sheet metal of the car, makes it out of the cost effective range of many "body shops" as well.

Icemark

remember that if you are just fixing the car and repainting about 75% if the work is just prep, with only about 25% of the work being paint related. If you strip the whole car, and re-paint the whole car about 90% of the work is prep work.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Hey, you caught me on that one - I forgot all about dipping, but yes its typically out of 99.9% of people's price range as well as the actual place's capability.

I asked my local rechromer (Midway Plating) about dipping an old Triumph body for a customer and they said that their tank probably wouldn't be big enough. Either way it would have been more than he was willing to spend.

But there is no doubt it does a better job then even corn balsting since there is ZERO pressure applied to the steel. Where as sandblasting (even with fine media like corn) is like hitting the panel with a zillion little hammers.

Icemark

yep I agree 100%

iceblue

The reason I use AIR powered DA's and board files with bondo work is because that stuff is a nightmare to sand down. Also striping the paint or scuffing it is allot more prone to have good adhesion then a first time hand sander.

Rolls of paper was insisting just that sticky rolls of sand paper for hand sanding also used to stick on the bottom of board sanders.

I also forgot 800grit for sanding the primer.

I hate bondo unfortunately it is very hard to get around using especially on custom work.

Thank you for mentioning that very important IceMark the tak rag. After each paint coat you can tak rag everything to pick up particles so they are not sprayed into your paints and clears.

I always use a minimum of 3 coats of primer and normally 4 to 5. If you don’t sand to bare metal you can paint right over the scuffed up paint or clear but I always primer back over this.

Rust is just a major thin to deal with and to cut corners will probably bite you in the ***. It is hard and easy just takes more effort and you need to be thuro if you are planning for a long life span.

Most everything I have mentioned for you has been definition out for you buy others.

I only suggest this because I do not know any others on here but study the steps of my painting it really shows and comments what is going on.

A gun also takes some time to learn how to spray and how to change the setting for where at on the car you are. Air pressure paint volume fan spread so take some time on panels. Be prepaid to sand runs out and recoat the paint.

Your first time stay away from pearls and kandys! Or any additive for that matter. Black is probably the hardest color to spray also white is very easy.

You will hear many methods from many different painters. This does not mean one is right or wrong there is many ways to spray and people have there liking and taught different ways.

gscully

Getting a paint job to look professional is not easy, I'm very mechanically inclined and before I attempted my paintjob I had done lots of drywall taping/putty etc and a little auto painting (sunroof and helped with a friend's bumper before) I got it to look professional but wow was it a lot of work. Seriously not worth it to do it yourself unless it's something that you just want to attempt especially if you don't already have some of the tools. I already had a compressor borrowed a hplv gun and a mask from a friend so that kept the cost down. From my experience I'd say that the prep work while a lot of work was straight foward, the one tip I'd give is that after every step everything has to look perfect because you can't get it at a later step. I found the DA sander was a waste of money my compressor couldn't come close to keeping up with the air demands 5hp 13gal. 2nd tip when spraying primer look at the material data sheet, mine said spray 5-7" away and well I didn't read that the first time ( I was probably 12") and even after wet sanding I still had texture so I had sand it all off and reprime the car. The bascoat was the easiest step, you really can't screw it up if you got this far. Clearcoat honestly I never found a really good technique for spraying it. First I was spraying it just like you'd do a base coat and after 2 coats it wasn't looking at all shinny, so I started to put down wet coats. Now it had a great shine but lots of texture. After all was done I wetsanded everything 1500 then 2000 then polished out all the scratches. Holy crap that was soo much work, I should have gotten a good rotary buffer and 1500, 2000 compound would have saved a lot of elbow grease. I'd like if some of the body guys here could let me know what's the techinque for spraying clear and what it should look like after spraying before buffing.

darksider

USEFUL LINKS FROM CARCRAFT

Painting Lingo
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/24820/index3.html
Paint Your Car at Home
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/24820/index.html
Paint & Body Basics
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/116_04...nt/index3.html
Body Rot Repair
http://www.carcraft.com/searchresult...=paint&x=0&y=0
Easy Paint & Body
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/92238/index.html
How to Color-Sand a New Paint Job
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/926/index.html
How-To Body Basics
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/116_9504_body/index.html
Tips And Thing you Should Know
http://www.carcraft.com/projectbuild/3844/index.html
How To Align A Fender
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/51979/index.html
How We Saved Bucks
http://www.carcraft.com/projectbuild/3844/index1.html

darksider

a couple of more questions before i start the journey of no return.

can i primer over the old paint of the interior so it doesnt chip? how far should i stop the primer when putting it on? where should i tape up the car? are the windows removeable? i want to get the primer within the cracks of the seals/weatherstrips and plastic trims/door panels/interior parts. should i do body work first then worry about the edges? or do the edges first?

kind of hard to explain but hope im begin clear... thanks

darksider

ok so ill just make it easier on myself and to the body work first. then ill strip the seals/weatherstrips and do the edges. any tips would be appreciated.

thanks

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Do you mean inside the car, like on the dash?

You should prime past the edges of all the rough sanding you do. BTW, this is a good point to mention backsanding. Say there is a dent in the hood, you sand it down, tap it out a bit, fill it, file it, block it - its ready for primer....make sure you sand around it very throuoghly before you prime otherwise you will not be able to feather the edge of the primer. But your primer should fill all the sanding scratches you have that AREN'T 400. And that is at the most minimal.

Anywhere you don't want paint or primer. Or anything that you odn't feel like removing that you don't want paint and primer on.

Yes, the windshield will require some professional help......or at least someone with the tools. I would recommend in order to remove it without breaking it that you cut a small section of the urethane with an air kinfe and proceed to use piano wire on the rest of it......be very very careful they will break easily.

Do your body work and backsand all of it, then sand the remainders of each panel.

Icemark

what size tip and spray gun were you using???

I use a dedicated 3M HVLP spray gun with a 1.4 tip that only sprays clear. It requires a compressor with about 15 CFM, but the results are perfect with only minor wet sanding needing to be done.

You don't want to spray clear with any gun that is big enough to spray primer (usually 1.5 to 2.0 tips).

iceblue

I spray my clears at 22psi. Anything lower creates more orange peal. I also fog a little trick with a 4:1 reducer and it eats the clear and floats it smooth. Almost no orange peal.

Clear should look like your paint with watter on it. So paint something and put water on it and look at it.

Icemark

Reducer??? You are not using Urethanes?? I didn't know anyone painted with lacquers anymore

88rxn/a

iTrader: (6)

i used to paint at my old shop. I would paint the mudflaps for cadilac escalades...so inquired LOTS of paint because the plant closed down and they just gave it to me...i might walk into a body shop and hand him all of it and cash just to do the prep work....ill paint it myself...but 500 isnt gonna get very far if you want the look you are after...even if you want just the primer temporary paint job...

iceblue

Reducers are also used on acrylics. Reducer and activator depending on brand or model of paint in acrylics request the use of one or both.

You should use both in a clear. Or at least everyone I have sprayed.


Now a hand rubbed lacquer paint job is to die for! Wow such depth in that paint.

JunpoweR

iTrader: (1)

Hey call me or im for help with your car..
I paint cars for a living.
If you just want to primer your car use a good quality brand sealer like DUpont or PPG(I use PPG strictly)
The results with workability are very important ..The finished job will reflect the materials you used..
Materials are expensive and cost about 800-1400 for each car I paint..PPG materials..Deltron base coats and clears.

Here a few steps in painting a car professionaly..

if its down to metal here is where you start

#1
Metal bath\prep to nutralize rust and other surface contaminents.rinse and dry
#2
Wax and grease remover then tack cloth to remove dust particles.
#3
Paint a primer etch/surfacer to build a good surface for paint to stick.
#4
Sand and smooth for Primer sealer.
#5
Wash then wax and grease remover again.Tack cloth.
#6
Primer sealer.There certian types you can spray but make sure you spray it well (no runs or drips)
#7
If you sprayed with no runs or imperfections then you can spray base color right onto the tacky primer..We do this to get inner coat adhesion..
#8
Then after a run free spray with base you can spray clear coat onto the base if not completely cured..If completely cured you have to sand/scuff.
1st coat must be dry and textured and tacky before 2nd coat of clear..Why? well you want those pockets for the wet coat of clear to stick to and fill that will prevent runs on the second wet coat.I sometimes over reduce the clear for water like application but you have to be very careful not to get runs.or you will have to remove the runs and wet sand and rebase and clear the area again..
#9
taking you painted the primers and color/clear with no runs and the clear has air cured for 3 days.Now it's ready for the wet sanding andd buff and polishing..I wont get into that but it is very important again to use quality materials and tools such as the buffer..

anybody with questions can contact me through PM or aim

JunpoweR

iTrader: (1)

Spraying clear is an art.Start on the top of the car..
alot of mistakes people make when doing it at home is wetting the floor to hold dust down before putting acrylic urethane clear on is a no no..the moisture in the air coold the paint comming out the nossle and you get a dry/textured spray.
Make sure your using the right reducer..there tempeature sentive....your mix has to be exact..
If it's 2-1 mix it 2-1 parts equally..a little more or less you will have wet paint over night or will dry too fast and create texture..
as for youru compounds I would reccomend using 1500 3m perfect it and then 3500 swril mark remover..

here is a picture of a paint job i did and didnt post before

darksider

after inspecting everything and finding more little rust spots inside the car, im starting to think twice.

to top it off i cant seem to find anyone who would lend me a paint gun. is there another name for it?

what kind of gun would i need to spray primer? can i use the same gun to sand blast?

are all the primer neccessary for this project availible in spay cans?

i found a place that does powder coating and hes willing to sand blast some rust spots for me.

all in all i would just save up to pay shop to do it. i really really want to do it myself becasue i know im going to want to paint a lot of cars in the future to save money. also i just dont trust anyone with large amounts of money and then theres that saying, if you want something done right DO IT YOURSELF.

thanks for ALL OF THE REPLIES

gscully

I don't know what the nossel size as I borrowed the hplv gun but I used the same gun for primer, base and clear, I found the gun didn't do a great job with the primer or clear but was perfect for the base. The clear I used was supposed to be mixed 4:1 with hardener but no mention of reducer also the data sheet said to use 8-10psi with a hplv gun. I didn't wet the ground at all as I had read about the problems that can make. I have a feeling the nossle was the problem.

iceblue

JunpoweR I disagree with meany of your techniques. Are you a certifyd painter? By whom?

Weting the floor is stright out of the ASE book and will keep the dust down. If you are in a booth then it is not needed and could hold moisture but not if your not in a down draft booth.

Clear should be applied per tack string check in an inconspicus spot.

If you spray the paint over fresh primer without a guid sand it will not be even. I hope you dont have swirl marks to need swirl remover for fresh paint.

darksider please note that 2:1 does not mean 2 parts and1 part it is a mixing ratio and should be pored in a mesureing cup for paints.

darksider

should i buy a hvlp and a air compresser seperetly? or should i buy the ones with the built in compresser? whats the differences? why are the bult in hvlp in the thousand $ range when the compressor and a hvlp gun are just fraction of that cost?

what do i need to get basically.

sorry its late.

ohh and are there any hvlp spray guns that cost about $30. someones selling me a brand new one that said 45psi something. are they that cheap?

edit i need to know asap. what should i be looking for when buying a compressor? buying a hvlp gun attachment?